So is the Hyperion Wharf project dead?

[Captain Chaos]

You forget to also mention that it was 2 years after PI was shuttered before we had an announcement of what was supposed to replace it. Which probably means that when the place was shut down there were absolutely no solid plans of what to do with it. That's a big sign that they had no clue what they were doing.

Totally forgot about that!!! Thanks devoy for reminding me

 

[Master Yoda]

You forget to also mention that it was 2 years after PI was shuttered before we had an announcement of what was supposed to replace it. Which probably means that when the place was shut down there were absolutely no solid plans of what to do with it. That's a big sign that they had no clue what they were doing.

Actually there were plans but they fell through. The plan was to renovate and lease the existing buildings to third parties. From what I have heard there were several parties on board but pretty much everything fell through when the economy tanked. My main issue was what they did after that or more to the point what they did not do.

 

[puntagordabob]

Actually there were plans but they fell through. The plan was to renovate and lease the existing buildings to third parties. From what I have heard there were several parties on board but pretty much everything fell through when the economy tanked. My main issue was what they did after that or more to the point what they did not do.

They probably thought their plan was slam-dunk and at the time it was formulated it probably was a winner....in all fairness I do not believe most of us folks thought that a few months from now our economy would crash to a screeching halt (destroying so many companies and private citizens alike).... it is quite likely caught Disney off guard as well....

After the crash of the economy the rules of what works and what not changed over night....I would rather see them sit tight until the new rules of the game have materialized for them to adapt to than to see them force their old plan through to fail..... same goes with the HW plan...they are in this case "adapting".....

IMHO we should allow them more time with this endeavor.... If they get this project "done right" in the end, that is what I think is most important....especially since this change could be the guiding force in the future of Downtown Disney. Now if they dont....thats entirely different affair.....

I KNOW this is hard my friends....but in this one instance I encourage all of us to simply plop our feet up & Relax!

 

[saxamoophone]

Time for my random guess as to what could happen =D.

Guess 1: Parking Garages!
Guess 2: A Multi-Level PI area!
Guess 3: Nightlife returns to the upper level of a new PI area
Guess 4: Bowling (alright, already there), more Miniature Golf, Laser Tag, Bumber Cars and other "Carnival" type things are added throughout DTD resort.

You know, I love WDW and everything, but the smaller Universal-Orlando & Citywalk or Disneyland Resort and Downtown Disney combo they have at the other parks is just a great idea. You have to wonder how much more successful (not that it isn't a succes) DTD would be if attached to the entrance of a thempark.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

The reason I say that is because it gives the appearance of having no clue what they are doing... It is one thing to announce Disney's Animal Kingdom complete with Beastly Kingdomme, then cut Beastly Kingdomme because they were going over budget.. you still got the Animal Kingdom theme park...

Hyperion Whiff is a different animal... They make this grand announcement about this awesome re-imagining of Pleasure Island... They knock down a few buildings, add seed and mulch and THEN figure out a better way to maximize profits??? These things should have been planned and thought out before any kind of construction or demolition started. Just gives the appearance of a place run by clueless dolts.

A few buildings are demolished, grassy knoll is planted, then the MBAs with their Excel program and forecasting charts find a better way to rip off the guests, I mean maximize profits, I mean "provide better entertainment options to our guests" and BAM, project stopped.

Steve you have an advantage over most of us... You obviously know what the plans are... Most of us don't... So while the new plans may be pretty spectacular, all the rest of us can do is look from the outside, hear of a grand announcement, see the project start, then stop, and read from a blog that things are being re-thought... So yes, this looks embarrassing and that they don't know what they are doing and have no plan... Especially with TDO's track record...

I'll trust what you say about the project, but you'll have to look at the situation through the regular membership and general public's eyes... And I'm sure most of the people complaining about the stalling of this project, once the new plans are announced, will be on board with the plans... But, until then, people will continue to think management has no plan for Pleasure Island/Hyperion Whiff, no matter what insiders say....

Good post.

I don't care what comes in place of the former PI, it ABSOLUTELY makes them look bad to roll out the red carpet and make announcements and show drawings and plans and announce timelines and knock buildings down and wall off areas only to completely backtrack on the entire thing. All after TWO YEARS of letting the area sit dormant.

This isn't a fly-by-night operation. This is Disney. They're supposed to have the best engineers and planners on the planet. This whole PI thing has been handled poorly, and no one should defend them. Not even Steve. It doesn't matter what they end up putting there.

Sure, I hope it's better than what they've shown so far. But that just means they wasted millions of dollars in planning and development that they shouldn't have to this point.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Waiting for jt to show himself long enough to say why this is exactly what he said would happen and defend it in... 3... 2... 1...

 

[Alektronic]

Actually there were plans but they fell through. The plan was to renovate and lease the existing buildings to third parties. From what I have heard there were several parties on board but pretty much everything fell through when the economy tanked. My main issue was what they did after that or more to the point what they did not do.

Disney has a lot of plans and blueprints that are ready to go. But most of the time they don't want to commit the funds to build it. The changes are due to the current project manager and upper management. Project Managers do not have a good track record here. I heard they are on their 6th or 7th Project Manager already and upper management has been shuffled around a couple of times.

 

[jt04]

Waiting for jt to show himself long enough to say why this is exactly what he said would happen and defend it in... 3... 2... 1...

Steve is doing a great job of explaining the changes and I believe he has direct sources. So, after admitting I have faith Disney is going to get this right ultimately, I am happy to pass the torch to others to carry on with that message. I have done my part.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Good post.

I don't care what comes in place of the former PI, it ABSOLUTELY makes them look bad to roll out the red carpet and make announcements and show drawings and plans and announce timelines and knock buildings down and wall off areas only to completely backtrack on the entire thing. All after TWO YEARS of letting the area sit dormant.

This isn't a fly-by-night operation. This is Disney. They're supposed to have the best engineers and planners on the planet. This whole PI thing has been handled poorly, and no one should defend them. Not even Steve. It doesn't matter what they end up putting there.

Sure, I hope it's better than what they've shown so far. But that just means they wasted millions of dollars in planning and development that they shouldn't have to this point.

If Universal ever acted in this manner, the members of the Disney fanboy community would be bashing their management as being clueless... Imagine if Universal announced a new vision for CityWalk, shutted their clubs and a few restaurants, rolled out the red carpet to the media along with grand concept art to the new CityWalk vision, then balked on the project just as demo crews moved in. The Disney fanboys would call Universal management a laughing stock...

 

[Horizonsfan]

If Universal ever acted in this manner, the members of the Disney fanboy community would be bashing their management as being clueless... Imagine if Universal announced a new vision for CityWalk, shutted their clubs and a few restaurants, rolled out the red carpet to the media along with grand concept art to the new CityWalk vision, then balked on the project just as demo crews moved in. The Disney fanboys would call Universal management a laughing stock...

Too true. The blinders that a lot of folks around here have are sad and amusing all at once.

Of course if you don't think that think that WDW's (praise be upon it!:lookaroun:lol batting average is any less than 90%, your labeled a doom and gloomer.

 

[puntagordabob]

If Universal ever acted in this manner, the members of the Disney fanboy community would be bashing their management as being clueless... Imagine if Universal announced a new vision for CityWalk, shutted their clubs and a few restaurants, rolled out the red carpet to the media along with grand concept art to the new CityWalk vision, then balked on the project just as demo crews moved in. The Disney fanboys would call Universal management a laughing stock...

Universal Orlando is doing very well....they also seemed to weather the economic downturn in an almost positive fashion....in fact they are getting stronger and stronger over there. That being said.... Universal's Citywalk is definitely more adult themed than anywhere currently at DTD for sure... and I agree that closing PI's clubs without anything to replace them with the "Like" anywhere on property was a strategic mistake for sure since it essentially GAVE up the entire niche market which is a shame for sure. WDW definitely needs more for adults....

So regarding the poster's stance...I concede that TDO should not get a free pass as to their actions....Another poster stated that TDO did have a plan that would have likely been Just Fine before the downturn began and add to the point that the crashing economy caught almost everyone offguard and IMHO it explains their initial decision to shelve the original plan to evaluate really where things were headed....especially when the interested parties started to "drop like flies" from wanting retail space. What made sense before the crash suddenly was "out the window" and they didnt have a backup plan (and why? No one anticipated the crash remember?)

Did TDO take to long to come up with the HW concept? I would say there is some strong evidence that points toward the "too slow" end. Still HW was pretty interesting in some ways... Now they have shelved HW..... If we are here having this conversation in two years then a Giant EPIC FAILURE banner will magicly appear over PI for sure.

What we should all hope for though is that whatever comes next Blows HW out of the water.... it is definite that DTD needs to add the adult fun of PI and perhaps add a real "pier" aspect to this area as well....

 

[jt04]

Universal Orlando is doing very well....they also seemed to weather the economic downturn in an almost positive fashion....in fact they are getting stronger and stronger over there. That being said.... Universal's Citywalk is definitely more adult themed than anywhere currently at DTD for sure... and I agree that closing PI's clubs without anything to replace them with the "Like" anywhere on property was a strategic mistake for sure since it essentially GAVE up the entire niche market which is a shame for sure. WDW definitely needs more for adults....

So regarding the poster's stance...I concede that TDO should not get a free pass as to their actions....Another poster stated that TDO did have a plan that would have likely been Just Fine before the downturn began and add to the point that the crashing economy caught almost everyone offguard and IMHO it explains their initial decision to shelve the original plan to evaluate really where things were headed....especially when the interested parties started to "drop like flies" from wanting retail space. What made sense before the crash suddenly was "out the window" and they didnt have a backup plan (and why? No one anticipated the crash remember?)

Did TDO take to long to come up with the HW concept? I would say there is some strong evidence that points toward the "too slow" end. Still HW was pretty interesting in some ways... Now they have shelved HW..... If we are here having this conversation in two years then a Giant EPIC FAILURE banner will magicly appear over PI for sure.

What we should all hope for though is that whatever comes next Blows HW out of the water.... it is definite that DTD needs to add the adult fun of PI and perhaps add a real "pier" aspect to this area as well....

If they duplicate the PI business model they will be right back to square one and they will fail again. There is a fine line they need to walk and they can't forget the Disney brand and expectations. Simple as that. Splitsville works so perfectly for that reason. It is Disney, not South Beach or the French Quarter or Vegas.

 

[Kamikaze]

If they duplicate the PI business model they will be right back to square one and they will fail again. There is a fine line they need to walk and they can't forget the Disney brand and expectations. Simple as that. Splitsville works so perfectly for that reason. It is Disney, not South Beach or the French Quarter or Vegas.

I'm sure people have pointed this out to you numerous times, but the PI business model did not fail. It was meant to look that way by those who wanted to close the clubs.

Also, just because there is dancing and drinking doesn't make it South Beach or Vegas. Would you say because Six Flags over Georgia has a themed rollercoaster, that makes it WDW? Of course not. There are dance clubs in every city in the country, and bars literally everywhere. So you don't like them. Your choice.

But hey, lets not let facts get in the way of our talking points, right?

 

[MiklCraw4d]

And, for the Paul Harvey moment, I'll point out that both these trolleys were designed by Imagineering legend and Horizons designer George McGinnis.

So it alll tieeesss togettheerrr!

Sorry, that was just a free-association comment I made based on a lengthy discussion some of us here had this past winter regarding Hyperion Wharf trolleys.

I live in SoCal, where several big, fancy outdoor malls have these custom built trolley systems that circulate shoppers around the retail/dining/housing that are intertwined in the malls. The vehicles are fully wheelchair accesible and gorgeously crafted and piloted by conductors in fancy uniforms more polished and upscale than anything on Main Street USA. :lookaroun

There's one of these trolley malls just down the street from WDI headquarters in Glendale, so I know the Imagineers are very familiar with the concept of trolleys zipping around outdoor shopping malls.

Glendale, California Mall Trolley - The Americana Shopping Center

Los Angeles, California Mall Trolley - The Grove Shopping Center

Wouldn't those be neat zipping around Downtown Disney, connecting one side of the sprawling facility to the other? And when I say zip, they really can zip, as seen in this 20 second YouTube clip of a trolley at The Grove moving down the mall at Christmastime. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPN2qvy8NtE

 

[Lee]

Actually there were plans but they fell through. The plan was to renovate and lease the existing buildings to third parties. From what I have heard there were several parties on board but pretty much everything fell through when the economy tanked. My main issue was what they did after that or more to the point what they did not do.

From what I've heard of late...the bold part is not entirely accurate.
They closed the clubs in anticipation of being able to get some third-party upscale restaurants and shops to move in.
Nothing was signed, there were no agreements. They took an ill-advised leap of faith...

...and missed.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I'm sure people have pointed this out to you numerous times, but the PI business model did not fail. It was meant to look that way by those who wanted to close the clubs.

Also, just because there is dancing and drinking doesn't make it South Beach or Vegas. Would you say because Six Flags over Georgia has a themed rollercoaster, that makes it WDW? Of course not. There are dance clubs in every city in the country, and bars literally everywhere. So you don't like them. Your choice.

But hey, lets not let facts get in the way of our talking points, right?

Come on, TDO's minions and apologists have to spew their talking points somewhere.... Minions and apologists never use facts....

 

[jt04]

I'm sure people have pointed this out to you numerous times, but the PI business model did not fail. It was meant to look that way by those who wanted to close the clubs.

Also, just because there is dancing and drinking doesn't make it South Beach or Vegas. Would you say because Six Flags over Georgia has a themed rollercoaster, that makes it WDW? Of course not. There are dance clubs in every city in the country, and bars literally everywhere. So you don't like them. Your choice.

But hey, lets not let facts get in the way of our talking points, right?

I'd say you are the ones using talking points. Which is really tiresome. But let us say you are right. Then it has to be said Disney killed PI purposely because it is not what they do and it did not reflect the image of the brand they desire. So 'why' it failed becomes moot and the only reality we are left with is that it ultimately does not exist because Disney does not want it to exist. The 'reason' is totally meaningless in that light. Of course, I know it failed financially. While you are left to believe what you have to believe.

I really am done discussing this until Disney makes the big reveal on the future of DTD.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I'd say you are the ones using talking points. Which is really tiresome. But let us say you are right. Then it has to be said Disney killed PI purposely because it is not what they do and it did not reflect the image of the brand they desire. So 'why' it failed becomes moot and the only reality we are left with is that it ultimately does not exist because Disney does not want it to exist. The 'reason' is totally meaningless in that light. Of course, I know it failed financially. While you are left to believe what you have to believe.

I really am done discussing this until Disney makes the big reveal on the future of DTD.

Only to have more Harvard MBA grads find an even better way to increase profit margins and the TDO management bonus checks all the while dumbing down, I mean, providing the guests even better entertainment experience...thus halting Hyperion Whiff further.. LOL..

 

[unkadug]

Only to have more Harvard MBA grads find an even better way to increase profit margins and the TDO management bonus checks all the while dumbing down, I mean, providing the guests even better entertainment experience...

Read - "Bold New Vision"

 

[Mouse Detective]

Of course, I know it failed financially.

Of course, you DON'T.