So is the Hyperion Wharf project dead?

[wdwmagic]

That really says a lot, and confirms much of what I'd been told previously. Thanks.


Never mind resort merchandise. Look at MK.
Used to have an antique store in Liberty Square. Used to have cool safari/African merchandise in Adventureland. Used to have western merch in Frontierland. Magic shop. Swords and the like in the castle. The list goes on.

But not today. Every location has to hit a certain number, and in order to do that they have severely dumbed down the merchandise selection or thrown in stuff that doesn't belong. Hannah Montana in the Space Mountain shop? Nightmare Before Christmas in the Pirates shop? Really?

The result? Perhaps a bit higher profits. But at the expense of theme, storytelling and guest satisfaction. Efficiency being put before show.

I just don't like it.

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

 

[wdwmagic]

The AC was never marketed and advertised properly, like it should have been. I've been going to WDW for many many years now, multiple times a year, and I didn't even know it existed until like two years before it closed.

That tells me there was a problem.

They just let the AC sit there, only to be happened upon by those who walked by, and even less went in, and even LESS knew what was going on at that point.

It's a numbers game. If they pushed it even a little bit... Put something on resort TV about it SPECIFICALLY (not just something about PI), told what it was... Mentioned the Balderdash cup, the "zany effects" throughout the night, etc... The place would have been packed.

You say it was poorly attended. I say that problem would have been easily fixed.

It would be fascinating to run a parallel universe of ACs, all ran by different people and to see how it would turn out. A lot of people have ideas on how it could have been saved - sure would be interesting!

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

I think there's a huge difference between "selling" and "selling ENOUGH" in TDO's eyes.

If they've got a bogey of X per square feet of store (I'm sure a higher number than any other retail space), and they were making X-20% with the unique merch and knew they could reach X by cutting the unique stuff and moving NBC stuff into the Pirates store, they were going to do it.

It doesn't mean X-20% is a horrible profit. It just means that it's not X.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

It would be fascinating to run a parallel universe of ACs, all ran by different people and to see how it would turn out. A lot of people have ideas on how it could have been saved - sure would be interesting!

I know what you're saying... But at the very least it can't be argued that they did nothing to promote it.

Again, if a WDW vet like me didn't even know it existed (because I'm not much of a club guy, so I didn't end up on PI hardly at all), that should say something.

I'd have been regularly attending the club for years, had I known it was even there, and what it was about. I can't imagine I am alone.

 

[wdwmagic]

I think there's a huge difference between "selling" and "selling ENOUGH" in TDO's eyes.

If they've got a bogey of X per square feet of store (I'm sure a higher number than any other retail space), and they were making X-20% with the unique merch and knew they could reach X by cutting the unique stuff and moving NBC stuff into the Pirates store, they were going to do it.

It doesn't mean X-20% is a horrible profit. It just means that it's not X.

Yeah there is no question that they want to max out every inch of retail space. This is what the stock-holders demand of it.

 

[xdan0920]

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

This is very true.

But does everything need to be brought down to the lowest common denominator? I completely understand the desire to turn a higher profit, but what I think is being missed is what Lee referred to. Selling Hannah Montana in space mountain for example. How many more generic Hannah T-shirts are you going to sell by putting a rack of them at Space Mountain. My guess would be a relatively small amount, seeing as how the same shirt is available all over the resort.

Is it that much of a profit sacrifice to keep the attraction shops stocked with theme appropriate merchandise? If a little girl needs a Hannah shirt, they will have multiple opportunities to bang on their parents to buy them one. I don't think the sacrifice of theme is worth it to sell a kid a shirt they can get on main street, or WoD, or Mousegears, or any Disney Store in any mall in America.

 

[Lee]

It would be fascinating to run a parallel universe of ACs, all ran by different people and to see how it would turn out. A lot of people have ideas on how it could have been saved - sure would be interesting!

In a way, they currently have an opportunity to do just that.

Reopen. Modest cover charge. Segment on resort TV with Stacy showing off the Club. Perhaps, even scrap the Veranda idea and put an Adventurer's restaurant into BET, which would add revenue and provide a daytime experience for the day crowd.

Done.

 

[wdwmagic]

I know what you're saying... But at the very least it can't be argued that they did nothing to promote it.

Again, if a WDW vet like me didn't even know it existed (because I'm not much of a club guy, so I didn't end up on PI hardly at all), that should say something.

I'd have been regularly attending the club for years, had I known it was even there, and what it was about. I can't imagine I am alone.

I'm not saying that AC didnt need/deserve some promotion, but it could always be said though that they don't promote Le Cellier, and it is packed. They don't promote Boma, and it is packed. The same goes for all the backstage tours - you can barely find any official info on them - and yet they are full daily. The list goes on. At WDW it seems like these things sink or swim. AC was one of those that sank.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

In a way, they currently have an opportunity to do just that.

Reopen. Modest cover charge. Segment on resort TV with Stacy showing off the Club. Perhaps, even scrap the Veranda idea and put an Adventurer's restaurant into BET, which would add revenue and provide a daytime experience for the day crowd.

Done.

Wave the cover charge for those that eat dinner at the Adventurer's Restaurant.

Now you've got a carrot to dangle in front of folks to eat dinner there.

Add in effects that go off when certain things are ordered, a la the new bar at the Disneyland Hotel.

Market all this stuff.

A hidden gem at WDW is no longer hidden.

 

[Lee]

Yeah there is no question that they want to max out every inch of retail space. This is what the stock-holders demand of it.

I don't think it's the stockholders. I think it's the execs who want flashy numbers to show off to their bosses.
I think it is a gentleman named Jim Hunt who came up with the idea that all Disney shops have to generate a specific profit level or be closed/changed. Magic shop doesn't sell enough tricks to meet his magic number...adios magic shop.
I can't tell you how much I hate that way of thinking across the board. It is the death of real Disney magic, and the birth of (not gonna use the word that begins with "Wal", 'cause then I'd have to pay royalties to Spirit) the dumbing down of the experience.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

At WDW it seems like these things sink or swim. AC was one of those that sank.

And I believe it's because TDO looked at everything in PI as a whole. I don't think they viewed them as separate ideas/concepts/possibilities. PI as a whole didn't do what they wanted. So they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

The AC was just another door on PI.

That would also explain why it didn't get any marketing or anything else. It was just a door.

 

[zulemara]

And I believe it's because TDO looked at everything in PI as a whole. I don't think they viewed them as separate ideas/concepts/possibilities. PI as a whole didn't do what they wanted. So they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

The AC was just another door on PI.

That would also explain why it didn't get any marketing or anything else. It was just a door.

Not to mention PI itself wasn't marketed after 2004. You have to market and give people a reason to come! They did neither. On top of it, they closed Jazz club to make way for Reglan which was a clear indication of the direction they were trying to go(and made sure they could never gate the island again) then they took out the signature spotlights because it didn't fit the new "theme" of the island. What new theme?
Next thing no more fireworks, no more stage, now you just have an area people walk through with no idea what it actually is. That's not a problem with the clubs, it's a problem with advertising and management.

However, the poster a few back who pointed out the West Side problems is ultimately the most correct IMO. PI suffered its fate because of the West Side. Had they kept PI gated and offered a viable transportation method around the island, it would have been fine.

 

[Slowjack]

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

If that's actually true, then WDW is doomed, long term. I remember when the Disney Store was a huge money maker (our store in Birmingham was the top-grossing store in the mall, per-square-foot); we had all these collectibles that only a few people bought, but a lot of people looked at and enjoyed. Then someone had the bright idea to fill the whole store just with the stuff that sold in volume. The regional manager told me (I was a CM) that the Stores didn't need to provide any magic--we weren't the parks!

That location is now a no-name toy store filled with junk.

Filling every nook and cranny with high-volume generic merchandise is a win for the company, short term, but long term, I disagree, and as a fan and as a shareholder, I wish the company would think long term. When even the stores in the parks aren't required to be part of the magic, there's not much left that is.

I recall a story told, I think, by Bob Gurr (maybe not), about designing the original stagecoaches at Disneyland, and Walt's insistence on using authentic details in construction. Someone pointed out that few guests would pick up on those, and Walt said that people could respond to details even if they didn't know they were. Hey, I still remember my dad's WDW pipe, even though he hasn't smoked a pipe in thirty years. You think people will have long memories of DisneyParks(tm) t-shirts?

Okay, climbing down from my soapbox now...

 

[evilzorac]

Actually Slowjack get back up there I like what your preaching! :dazzle:

 

[disneyny]

I agree so much with what many of you are saying about the "dumbing down" of everything. You can only cut so much of the details and magic before people do notice something. They may not say "hey I wonder what happened to the jungle merchandise in Adventureland" but they may be thinking in their heads that something just feels less special than when they went when they were little. They might not be able to put their finger on what is lacking but it all contributes to the atmospere and the wow factor that keeps people coming back. Sometimes I don't think management gives tourists enough credit. Not everyone is like the people on the boards for sure but it doesn't mean people don't respond positively to quality and details. There is no need to fill every shop with the same thing- there has to be a middle of the road somewhere. Why don't they hire us all as consultants and I bet we could whip that place back into shape right away!

 

[RSoxNo1]

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

I think this is more of a function of people not knowing that the details are there until they're gone.

 

[jt04]

Disney obviously wanted these venues to work. They spent years trying to do so. The internet theory that DTD management were just trying to fail all the businesses there seems crazy. They wanted it to work, tried various things, and it just didn't happen - for an extended period of time. Time to do something else.

I certainly agree with you if they have ideas that are even better. Splitsville gives me hope they understand what guests are looking for. I am more optimistic about DTD than I have ever been.

Plus I keep thinking they will find better uses for the AC 'franchise' in the future.

 

[COProgressFan]

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

But aren't the details one of the major things that distinguished Disney from everyone else? If the details weren't so important why does the new FLE look like it will be filled with detailed theming, and why are there so many details at DAK, or in the Carsland expansion? In fact, most of DCA is being rebuilt to bring back the details that weren't part of the original design.

Details is what set Disney apart from the rest, making them both successful and profitable for years.

 

[ZHoyt]

It isn't detail vs. non detail. Originally Disney viewed the entire park as a series of attractions. The stores were attractions as much as the rides were. Now, stores are strictly revenue generators. Converting the Main St Magic Shop or the Liberty Square Antique Shop were essentially closing down attractions and replacing them with more straight forward revenue generators. The stores used to be advertised as part of the experience in the 70s and 80s. That isn't really done anymore, and for good reason- the stores are no longer unique parts of the World, with the sole exception of World Showcase and a few scattered survivors.

 

[zooey]

I agree, I hate seeing all that out of place stuff in the attractions. Big problem though, is that the guests are not co-operating in this. Disney are going to give them what they want and what the typical guest wants is not what we want. If all that stuff you listed was selling it would be there, no question. The typical guest just does not seem interested in these detail orientated things.

The details always matter whether individuals pick up on them consciously or not. They feel the details as they experience the parks. You don't have to intellectually understand every layer of detail and history, but just recognizing or sensing that there are many layers to the parks sets it apart from any other experience. When they take away something like the antique shop, they've taken away another detail that tacitly speaks to the guest in a positive and satisfying way, whether they know it or not.

When I was last in WDW I saw the Main Street Philharmonic in Liberty Square. While I LOVE the MSP, their presence felt very wrong in the environment of Liberty Square. There is a case where they figured that they should be grabbing more guests who are using the back of the park as a thoroughfare between Fantasyland and Frontierland, all at the expense of theme and that feeling of correctness. That goes for the Sousa BGM that plays there now as well. Awful! While the average guest might not notice the music as not being period specific, but they will feel it, consciously or not.