Slash and Burn ...

[tirian]

Whylightbulb, did you read the article I posted a few pages back? OLC is doing exactly what financial experts are advising all "smart" businesses to do. :wave:

 

[albino_pygmy]

I still have yet to figure out why these businesses will think that raising their prices and cutting costs would bring in people. Don't you think it would be wiser to lower ticket prices and offer a little more to draw in more people? OLC has this pretty much figured out

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Yes you have expressed the sentiment I feel as well when visiting WDW. I've been to every Disney theme park around the world and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that every park, with the exception of the current California Adventure and Hong Kong, is leaps and bounds better than WDW. It's almost as though a different company built them. So now Hong Kong and CA are getting massive upgrades and expansion while WDW is gettting American Idol.

I don't know of anyone that has been to Tokyo DisneySea that can stomach the depression upon first returning to WDW. I can easily say that a good comparison would be visiting Disneyland then going to Six Flags Magic Mountain with its filth, gangs and low grade themeing.

On top of this I was reading an article about the Oriental Land Company. They were talking about how bad the Japanese economy is right now. Their attitude regarding expansion for Tokyo Disney: Because the economy is so bad they had better step up their expansion plans so people will have incentive to come back. Wow...WDW management is so inept, incompetant and shortsighted to the point that they can't see that logic?

Ugh. I have been worried about just this exact issue for months now. TDL and TDS were the last parks we were at in June, and I've spent many a moment wondering if our first trip to WDW will be as special as it used to be. Even my wife and kids, who are high on pixie dust almost 24/7 (and I love it that way!!) have made a comment here and there about how we just need to head back to Japan instead of the 2 hour flight to WDW! We just had a new baby a few months ago, so we don't have a WDW trip slated till next December... But I worry it'll be further effected by not just the cuts we've discussed in the thread, but also by having opened our eyes to both Hong Kong (TINY, but beautiful) and Japan (simply amazing, by every form and facet of the definition).

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I remember when DCA opened, there was tons of coverage about it in the Disney magazine with tons of pictures and descriptions of the rides. But when TDS opened, there was a small article on it and they only showed a few concept art pictures. Later when I saw the travel channel special on TDL and several internet site pictures, I felt the same way.

Jason Surrell also BARELY covered Mt. Promethius (sp?) in his latest book "The Disney Mountains", too... When it is far and away the most impressive, most involved structure WDI has ever built.

Why highlight the crowning acheivement of a park that Disney doesn't get all the revenue from if you visit?? :brick:

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I can tell you that the pictures don't do it justice. Until you step through the gates to encounter the massive DisneySea globe with its amazing detail framed by the Mira Costa exterior you have no idea what immersive themeing is. Every custom lamp fixture to every nook and cranny of this park will take you by surprise. I'm not exagerating. There is creative detail to be enjoyed everywhere you look and hear. There is no comparison to the attractions in Tokyo either. You could spend hours in each land just walking around. Anyway...I know this has been discussed before but I wanted to go off on a positive tangent for a change.

And the rides are great, too. I think our favorite was The Voage of Sinbad. LOVED it. All the AA's... The great music... The story...

And there wasn't even a line for it. At any point. They take it for granted over there. Kinda like we probably did back in WDW's glory days, I'd venture to say.

My girls still play with their stuffed Chandu's at least 2 or 3 times a week because that ride blew them away as much as it did.

 

[Lee]

Jason Surrell also BARELY covered Mt. Promethius (sp?) in his latest book "The Disney Mountains", too... When it is far and away the most impressive, most involved structure WDI has ever built.

Why highlight the crowning acheivement of a park that Disney doesn't get all the revenue from if you visit?? :brick:

I noticed that, too.

Everest - 20 pages.
Prometheus - 4 pages, with few actual photos.

A case of what we don't know, won't hurt them.

 

[whylightbulb]

And the rides are great, too. I think our favorite was The Voage of Sinbad. LOVED it. All the AA's... The great music... The story...

And there wasn't even a line for it. At any point. They take it for granted over there. Kinda like we probably did back in WDW's glory days, I'd venture to say.

My girls still play with their stuffed Chandu's at least 2 or 3 times a week because that ride blew them away as much as it did.

Oh yea! Sinbad is a masterpiece by every definition. The music is absolutely amazing, the story is heartwarming even though I don't understand the dialog or lyrics, The AA figures are stunning (especially when you consider their size and how difficult it is to design and build them that small), the sets are beautiful! I could go on and on.

When people say the story on Everest is great I can't relate after seeing Sinbad for example. This is a story that, due to the inspirational music, lighting and incredible art finish all the way around, made me tear up at the end of the ride. I got it...even without understanding one word. That is good storytelling. I truly can't say enough about this ride!

 

[whylightbulb]

I noticed that, too.

Everest - 20 pages.
Prometheus - 4 pages, with few actual photos.

A case of what we don't know, won't hurt them.

Yep...good point.

The first time seeing Mt. Prometheus and its environment I spent at least two hours just walking around with my mouth and eyes wide open.

Don't even get me started on 20K! There are so many details and show elements to take in there i had to ride it at least 25 times and I still don't think I caught it all.

 

[EpcotServo]

I have given more than enough to build a case for this attraction's shortcomings. I have yet to see anyone give specific comparisons to other attractions that show Everest's worthiness to stand along side attractions such as Splash Mountain, Tower of Terror or Indiana Jones ride. Compared to those examples Everest just doesn't contain the quantity and in most cases quality of show elements. Other than being a fun coaster Everest has much less to enjoy and contains less of what makes Disney and Universal attractions stand out from the rest of the world.

But according to the standards of your "case against Everest", I can tear down EVERY "masterpiece attraction".

Let's watch!

SPLASH MOUNTAIN

I'll give you that the ride is FUN, but one minute we're outside, then the next we're in a magical world of Singing Animals? Based on a movie Disney won't even release? There's no attempt to explain the situation, and on top of everything the AAs are just neatly lifted versions of ALREADY DESIGNED characters from America Sings but in different outfits. All that you see in the queue is a shadow projector (That never works) and SIGNS. Everything else about the story you have to assume by listening to the songs and the rest is left up to your imagination. It's a warehouse (You can even see the warehouse part from Frontierland Station. :hammer with a okay looking Mountain stuck on front, (The rockwork is ok, but it's not nearly as good as Big Thunder, right next door.) and a Flume Ride with singing AA animals.

BIG THUNDER

I'll give you that the rockwork is good, but where's the story? You're loaded on a Train why? Where's the story there? All they have is a loose backstory as to the LOCATION (That they don't even tell the details of THAT unless you're told by an Imagineer or make it up with your Imagination.) And what about SHOW SCENES? The ride only has three. It's a Roller Coaster going past rocks for the entire ride except for a flooded town you whiz past, a cave with WATERFALLS and pools (Not to mention Bat Puppets whose strings you can see.) and the Big "Finale" is just a Lift Hill with Fake Rocks on sticks.

SPACE MOUNTAIN

No story, just a vague theme and a Roller Coaster in the dark.

TOWER OF TERROR

I'll give you that it has a good story and theme, but where exactly are the show scenes? You go up and see one, pass through the darkness (and a few effects such as a door on strings, a giant eyeball showing 90's people on the ride and other hits. ) From then on it's just another freefall ride but in the Dark.

INDIANA JONES ADVENTURE

After finding the incredibly tiny temple, and being paraded down corridoor after corridoor (Stone room, Cave, Stone Room, Cave, REPEAT) with nothing to look at (Aside from the stones and the caves) is a language you can't understand, pictures on rocks (in the dark), and effects that don't work, you see a quick projection and are then shaken around in the dark, see rubber snakes, a shadow projection of bugs, and cheap black light paintings and air blasts. Sure the beginging and ending are good, but the entire middle portion has nothing but effects that are broken or not operating in your ride profile. You may not even get to see the effects that ARE working. (But you do get the see the Giant Snake. :lol
:hammer:

Sure the Main Chamber is impressive, but it would've been much better had a Roller Coaster, the Train, and Jungle Cruise went through it. What we got was instead just a big red room, with fire and lasers. And what about the story? We're told not to look in the eye, we do, we see some bugs snakes and fire, escape a rolling boulder, the we get off and trek back through the stone hallways and caves once again. Where's the conclusion? Indy calling us tourists?


Look, I think Indiana Jones Adventure is the best Disney ride ever made. Did I expect Everest to be better than it? Of course not. But compared to other the my personal list of major Thrill Attractions at WDW (RNR, Tower, Mission Space, Splash, Space Mountain, Test Track, Soarin') Everest fits in right along with each of those, and in most cases succeeds them. (When everything is working. I have problems with the maintenance and operations of the Ride, which should be the real issue here, this stuff is just such hooey I can't leave it alone.)

Expedition Everest meets EVERY criteria (the "vague" ones posted above. ) for a classic Disney Thrill Attraction. Story, Theme, and Execution. And sorry I can't come up with "facts" for those, but you still don't have a single fact to prove otherwise that the Story, Theme, and Execution of the ride are well done. You like to SAY that you do to back up what you think, but when I posted concise and logical reasioning behind what I think, you rejected it and continued on your merry way,

The main reason it's inferior is because you can count the number of elements on one hand that make this any different than just a roller coaster.

Splash Mountain- Good Ride, Good AAs, Good Theme.
Space Mountain-Fun ride, great building.
Indiana Jones-Amazing Ride, Amazing Effects, Great Theme, great story.
Tower of Terror-Great Ride, Great Effects, Great Building.
Mission Space-Great ride, amazing technology
RNR-Fun theme, Fun Ride, Nice Details
Big Thunder-Fun ride, Great Theme

I can count the important "elements" of every ride in one hand, and if you can't it's because your over complicating all of the other rides with details. The only real important things for a Ride is Story, Theme, Execution, and Entertainment.

This is not opinion it's fact.

:lol:

The mountain isn't even completely themed in all areas that guests can see it.

Same with Splash Mountain. I can point out several spots in person to you on stage, and outside the park. (And not as huge, but I found a spot from the Mark Twain where you can see a huge chunk of Big Thunder's structure and Rebar. It's a bit funny!)

The first sequence takes us around a bend with absolutely nothing but trees! The next sequence does the same thing.

No!


Well, that can't stand. Heaven Forbid any attraction start out going through a Forest.

I don't know how much clearer I can be. There is nothing more to the ride except a detailed queue and a nice bit of coaster elements including a really fun backwards sequence. Compare the story to the Indy ride. In Indy we are treated to details at every turn and the story actually builds to a climax for a finale sequence.

Like what? The much-talked-about-from-you Shadow Projector effect of Bugs? The Rubber Snakes? The Giant Fans sticking out in the Skeleton Chamber? The foggy Rats? The Black-Light flats?

We aren't just waiting in line reading a bunch of interpretive panels and expected to use our imagination for the rest.

Yes, Instead your just waiting in line looking at stones, Pictures, rocks, and a language you have to translate. (And again, a few awesome effects that never work or have been turned off.)

Look, Indiana Jones Adventure is my FAVORITE Disney Attraction, Ever.

But you look right past it and towards Everest with flawed arguments that can be used just as effectively with Indy.

You say there are plenty of details, plot twists and conflicts in Everest. What are these? The details are in the queue, the plot twists are...well there aren't any that most guests will notice and there is one conflict. What this is to most guests is that we are on a train and we encounter the Yeti. Where are the characters other than in the queue? More importantly why do we care? How can you use "story" as an example of how this ride stands out from other Disney attractions when you have the examples such as Indy to compare it to? Just because there is a backstory that does not add to the experience for most guests. Every attraction has that anyway.

THE STORY (Or "The Ig-noor-amoose Guide to What Just Happened")

BEGINGING

We are are on an Expedition to Everest. (Established in Scene 1, The Office, as well as in name and the details leading up to the ride.) We can see Everest through the pass, surrounded by the Forbidden Mountain, and the Himalayas. As we pass through the queue, the details and signs warn us that the Villagers believe the Pass to be home to the YETI. Signs and ancient symbloic warnings advise us to "BEWARE the Yeti" and "Respect the Tradition of the area". Before setting off on our train journey through the pass, we pass the Yeti Museum, to establish the creature in scientific and traditional terms. Despite all the warnings in this begining queue portion, we embark at the begining of the ride, but it terms of story, it's...

THE MIDDLE

Passing through the forest and up into the Mountains, we see one last warning that we're entering the Yeti's territory: A giant ancient mural in the monastery. (Even the slowest guest at this point knows the story: Going To Everest, Have to pass through what may be the Yeti's home to get there.) Once we reach the snow capped peaks and the caverns of the Pass...

PLOT DEVICE

The story (and forward motion) is stopped, because the track ahead is broken. Details such as the Footprints in the snow, and the mysterious roar in the distance are the first indications that this may be the work of the Yeti. This situation sends us (Both in terms of Physical Motion, and the story) in a Different Direction than intended.

CONFLICT

After a rush in the dark, we once again arrive to a stop. And we see the Shadow of an enormous creature, tearing up the tracks! As begin to move forward, it notices us! It leaps away, following us as we descend down twisted tracks in an attempt to get away from the creature.

END

Forced to continue into an unknown cave due to the track ahead, we finally see the Creature as it lunges toward us, we barely escape under a destroyed Trestle, and into the dark, towards the light if day. We made it back unharmed, and with the knowledge that what Prof. Pema Dorje warned of us at the beginning of the story was correct:
"You are about to enter the sacred domain of the Yeti, guardian and protector of The Forbidden Mountain. Those who proceed with respect and reverence for the sanctity of the natural enviroment and its creatures should have no fear. To all others; a warning. You risk the wrath of the Yeti."

It's a simple story, told through language, audio, Physical Motion, and Environments.

What about sets? The rock work is okay but that is about all that can be said for the so called "sets." Compare a bunch of rocks to the massive Temple of the Fobidden Eye set. Compare it to the detailed sets in Splash that contain the rock work, mulltiple AA, real theatrical lighting, foliage, props etc. Sorry, no comparison in scope or even quality in some cases.

All Opinion. I think the Forbidden Mountain itself (You know WDI likes that word alot, don't they?) is a Massive Set, and I think Broken Trestle is a fine example of WDI setwork. Not to mention how huge the Yeti Room is, and the Trestle you pass under. Now in Splash Mountain why don't you point out that you can SEE the lighting, and the top of the room most of the time on those sets?

Sorry, but you've yet to offer me one reason to demote Everest from the standing of Major Disney Attraction.

The length of the attraction is average and its effectiveness in terms of being an icon is fine as well. But once again, what makes it a masterpiece? It's an average coaster that's fun to ride with nothing to add in any show category. If this is all we have to look forward to from Disney in Florida it would be a crying shame.

I can't think of any statement of fact that can qualify anything of being a "Masterpiece", and nor can I think of any statement of fact that qualify anything of being "average" as well.
:shrug:

This was the funniest part of Epcotservo's post: A Widely Easy to Understand story with a Beginning, Middle, and End, with plenty of details, plot twists, and conflicts.

"Easy to understand" if it's explained to you by watching a documentary, reading about it on a fan site, or knowing Joe Rhode personally. But unlike other classic Disney (and Universal) attractions, the "story" isn't apparent to the guests, so they're not really given an opportunity to "understand" it or not.

"Plot twists and conflicts"??? Ummm... we're still talking about the same 3 minute ride, aren't we?

I love how Epcotservo goes about supporting his vague points....He just piles on additional vague points without providing any details.

See above and below...

His point is..............

:lol:

I truly hope that people are listnening to our posts. You and I both know that there are people on these boards that have the power to do things about these issues. As far as the Disney fans, they have power as well. They can choose not to accept the garbage coming out of Burbank and Glendale these days and help force management into some action.

WDW1974? A little bit. I do agree with many of his sentiments about the operations of WDW, though I may not agree with all of them, nor how they are stated. You?

Try Again Later.

 

[EpcotServo]

I noticed that, too.

Everest - 20 pages.
Prometheus - 4 pages, with few actual photos.

A case of what we don't know, won't hurt them.

:lol:

Yea. Expedition Everest fits right alongside every American Disney Attraction.

In the end, it's not as good as it would be in Tokyo.

Coincidentally, Story of my life.
:lol:

 

[George]

:lol:

Yea. Expedition Everest fits right alongside every American Disney Attraction.

In the end, it's not as good as it would be in Tokyo.

Coincidentally, Story of my life.
:lol:

If it makes you feel better, KFC is better in the States than it is in Japan. :lookaroun

 

[EpcotServo]

If it makes you feel better, KFC is better in the States than it is in Japan. :lookaroun

Really?

I've always thought the ones in Japan look better, especially for a few ones I've been too in America.
:hurl::brick::lol:

 

[Monty]

Really?

I've always thought the ones in Japan look better, especially for a few ones I've been too in America.
:hurl::brick::lol:

When I was in Japan I wasn't entirely convinced the meat at KFC was chicken.

McD's burgers were pretty sparse on whatever passed for beef as well.

 

[EpcotServo]

When I was in Japan I wasn't entirely convinced the meat at KFC was chicken.

McD's burgers were pretty sparse on whatever passed for beef as well.

Really? This is a shock. I can't even imagine Chicken tasting worse than a greaseball one from America. What exactly is wrong with it?
:lol:

As for McDonald's, I've never had a Burger there that wasn't "sparse".
:hammer:

 

[WDW1974]

I noticed that, too.

Everest - 20 pages.
Prometheus - 4 pages, with few actual photos.

A case of what we don't know, won't hurt them.

Yeah. It is.

It's also a result, a good one believe it or not, of this whole Internet era with fan websites and campaigns and the like.

In the 1980s and most of the 90s, TWDC tried to pretend that TDR didn't exist. In those days it was easy to do.

How many people even knew TDL existed, yet alone that it wasn't owned by Disney or what kind of product it provided back in 1983 or 1993?

Today, even many non-Disney geeks are at least aware it exists. And Disney can't simply ignore it no matter how much it would like to.

Yeah, Surrell's book certainly overplayed EE while downplaying the wonder (and I have yet to see it in person) that is Prometheus. But the book was published by Disney and for Disney ... and Surrell has a sweet deal with the Mouse to keep churning out these type books. He sure isn't going to rock the boat when people in Burbank say 'just give a mention' to certain elements at TDR.

But Disney isn't stupid and they do realize the word is getting out. That's why they are now (albeit very slowly and quietly) giving TDR some love in the publicity circles.

 

[jt04]

If it makes you feel better, KFC is better in the States than it is in Japan. :lookaroun

That goes for Europe and the middle east too.

 

[Monty]

Really? This is a shock. I can't even imagine Chicken tasting worse than a greaseball one from America. What exactly is wrong with it?
:lol:

As for McDonald's, I've never had a Burger there that wasn't "sparse".
:hammer:

The chicken was stringy, dry and still had feathers attached... :hurl:

A "Big Mac" at McD's had two patties slightly larger than a silver dollar each...

 

[WDW1974]

If it makes you feel better, KFC is better in the States than it is in Japan. :lookaroun

KFC is also MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better in the USA than in China.

In China, KFC doesn't know what 'white breast meat' means ... it's every part of the bird stuffed into a grinder with those special Colonel's (is it seven?) herbs and spices on top.

Now, McDonald's on the other hand is very, very good in China and Pizza Hut is GREAT ... you wouldn't even know you were dining in one they're so upscale.

 

[jt04]

The chicken was stringy, dry and still had feathers attached... :hurl:

A "Big Mac" at McD's had two patties slightly larger than a silver dollar each...

I don't think feathers are good for you.

 

[WDW1974]

The chicken was stringy, dry and still had feathers attached... :hurl:

A "Big Mac" at McD's had two patties slightly larger than a silver dollar each...

So ... have you been to TDR? Or just Japan?