Slash and Burn ...

[WDW1974]

I think I feel sorry for you actually.

Don't.

It is almost (almost) comical they way you keep circling around to the same point. If you are not getting responded to you engage in never ending diatribes and personal attacks to get a response and then say, "I am relevant because you are responding". So I am not sure if you elicit contempt or pity from me. Probably the latter.

Right ... yet again you can't offer anything substanitive to argue ... or even state anything new, so you just take shots at me.

If you don't like my 'diabtribes' don't read them and don't comment on them. You seem like a 12-year-old boy with his first naughty magazine ... you can't control your hands.

This little act is getting tiresome, but I guess you need attention.

And you are right about one thing you can't fully judge the man after three years but that does not seem to be stopping you.

I can and will judge the man. I don't need someone to overstay their welcome (like Michael Eisner ... did I tell you I know him, btw?) and do great damage before I say 'give him the hook.'

Iger is failing in a lot of ways ... look at ABC's ratings of late ... look at what the Studios did at the BO in 2008 ... look at the Disney Stores ... look at how much ESPN paid for the BCS series ... look at his team's utter failure to make headway in China (a REAL BIGGIE!) and yeah, look at the utter and complete lack of vision in the theme park division.

I feel I have a lot to back up my feelings on the man.

You don't, so you diparage me.

Well, buddy, go have a magical night!

 

[WDW1974]

Yep. That was the most recent missed opportunity to make it longer(better).
The other was when it was first designed for MK, leaving out half the original (superior) DL version.

The biggest mistake was the original, Lee, no doubt about it.

Yeah, they could have added a bit recently, but it wouldn't have amounted to very much. There's only so much space there.

And I must ask, have you been on DLP's amazing version?

 

[WDW1974]

I've said is once and I'll say it again...
All these things which are happening are signs of PIXAR Management is taking their next political step...

I'll bite ... what signs are you referring to?

And, I'll throw in an opinion, and that's that I'll take PIXAR's management over the politically fueled vipers nest (with dueling divas) that has been WDI for over a decade.

Forget the crap, like Pixar IS Disney... (it's the other wat around, management wise)

From what I've been told, Burbank has already tried to play the 'we own you' game in E-ville and it hasn't gone over well.

By the end of 2011 it will be... Welcome to Pixar World, Orlando...
From the start, this was all meant to be...

Almost every big name is gone... Rasulo will be next...

And you think this is BAD?!??!? If so, you're only the second person I know who feels that way (Lee MacDonald of LP.com and Disney consultant would be the other).

Just so I'm crystal clear, I feel Rasulo is absolutely a symbol of all that is wrong with Disney P&R these days.

And slowly but surely they're drawing their plans...

And folks say I'm dramatic ... please explain why Pixar equals the downfall of Disney and not all the dumb a$$ moves made by management since the rise of the consultants in the 1990s. I'd love to hear it!

 

[jt04]

I don't think you can fully judge the man on three years (especially since much of what took place his first year had been set in motion before he took over officially

I can and will judge the man. I don't need someone to overstay their welcome (like Michael Eisner ... did I tell you I know him, btw?) and do great damage before I say 'give him the hook.'


I feel I have a lot to back up my feelings on the man.

You don't know what you are saying from one day to the next.:ROFLOL:

PS--Beware of "feelings". They are not reliable. Hmmm, just like your "information".


Did I tell you I know Santa Clause.:hammer:

 

[WDW1974]

Yes I completely agree. Why TSM is getting so much hype is beyond me. At least many recognize the shortcomings of Monsters and Stitch but TSM seems to have escaped the bullet.

I can same the same for TSM as many of Disney's recent additions; it's fun but falls short of the original Disney standard. Terrible story, lackluster themeing but nice technology. Why in the world are we shrunk to the size of the toys, how did we get here and what is the point?

There are several ways they could have spent the same amount of money and delivered a more cohesive and solid story. What about riding in Barbie's car from Toy Story 2 through Al's Toy Barn. Imagine the humorous banter from Barbie. We could have stopped at different games in each aisle of the store for example. We could have been on a search for Woody while battling the various toys along the way. We could have been on Buzz's planet playing that game from the beggining of Toy Story 2. Where is the imagination? What ever happened to total immersion into an environment rather than moving from one UV Sintra piece to the next?

I think this is where Disney has fallen so short of late ... they go for the gimmick over the immersion ... I like TSMM, especially when compared to other recent efforts, but it could be so much more.

I just don't believe they want to build those attractions in Florida anymore. In Tokyo? Sure. In Paris? Yep. In Anaheim? well, it does seem like they're trying at least ... here in The Timeshare Kingdom of the World?

Well, EE and TSMM are a helluva lot better than SGE, Primeval Whirl, MILF, Aladdin's spinner etc ...

 

[agent86]

By revealing the attractions we did I will reveal who I am. What would you have me do? Of course, if you study my posts (not just in this thread) you'll see plenty of evidence. I get pretty specific when it comes to what we do in our projects from creative and engineering to budgets and project management. Short of that I'm not sure what you are looking for that won't reveal my identity.

I have given more than enough to build a case for this attraction's shortcomings. I have yet to see anyone give specific comparisons to other attractions that show Everest's worthiness to stand along side attractions such as Splash Mountain, Tower of Terror or Indiana Jones ride. Compared to those examples Everest just doesn't contain the quantity and in most cases quality of show elements. Other than being a fun coaster Everest has much less to enjoy and contains less of what makes Disney and Universal attractions stand out from the rest of the world.

The main reason it's inferior is because you can count the number of elements on one hand that make this any different than just a roller coaster. This is not opinion it's fact. The mountain isn't even completely themed in all areas that guests can see it. The first sequence takes us around a bend with absolutely nothing but trees! The next sequence does the same thing. Then we climb uphill through a cheap temple scene that doesn't even compare to what we see in the queue. After that it's mostly darkness and a shadow projector.

I don't know how much clearer I can be. There is nothing more to the ride except a detailed queue and a nice bit of coaster elements including a really fun backwards sequence. Compare the story to the Indy ride. In Indy we are treated to details at every turn and the story actually builds to a climax for a finale sequence. We aren't just waiting in line reading a bunch of interpretive panels and expected to use our imagination for the rest. We are immersed in every detail and there is a well thought out narrative that is conveyed using just about every means possible in a ride format.

You say there are plenty of details, plot twists and conflicts in Everest. What are these? The details are in the queue, the plot twists are...well there aren't any that most guests will notice and there is one conflict. What this is to most guests is that we are on a train and we encounter the Yeti. Where are the characters other than in the queue? More importantly why do we care? How can you use "story" as an example of how this ride stands out from other Disney attractions when you have the examples such as Indy to compare it to? Just because there is a backstory that does not add to the experience for most guests. Every attraction has that anyway.

Sets and ligting you say? I count three show lighting sequences for day operations: the temple during the main lift, the shadow projection room and the Yeti encounter. There is absolutely nothing with respect to lighting that you could point to in those examples that make it stand out to tell the story better. In fact it can be argued that the lighting design for the Yeti encounter sucks but that's a lot of opinion. What about sets? The rock work is okay but that is about all that can be said for the so called "sets." Compare a bunch of rocks to the massive Temple of the Fobidden Eye set. Compare it to the detailed sets in Splash that contain the rock work, mulltiple AA, real theatrical lighting, foliage, props etc. Sorry, no comparison in scope or even quality in some cases. I've already stated that the queue is well done for what it is so I'll give you that.

The length of the attraction is average and its effectiveness in terms of being an icon is fine as well. But once again, what makes it a masterpiece? It's an average coaster that's fun to ride with nothing to add in any show category. If this is all we have to look forward to from Disney in Florida it would be a crying shame.

This was the funniest part of Epcotservo's post: A Widely Easy to Understand story with a Beginning, Middle, and End, with plenty of details, plot twists, and conflicts.

"Easy to understand" if it's explained to you by watching a documentary, reading about it on a fan site, or knowing Joe Rhode personally. But unlike other classic Disney (and Universal) attractions, the "story" isn't apparent to the guests, so they're not really given an opportunity to "understand" it or not.

"Plot twists and conflicts"??? Ummm... we're still talking about the same 3 minute ride, aren't we?

I love how Epcotservo goes about supporting his vague points....He just piles on additional vague points without providing any details. :hammer:

 

[imagineer boy]

agent86, you are giving me a big headache...

 

[jt04]

This was the funniest part of Epcotservo's post: A Widely Easy to Understand story with a Beginning, Middle, and End, with plenty of details, plot twists, and conflicts.

"Easy to understand" if it's explained to you by watching a documentary, reading about it on a fan site, or knowing Joe Rhode personally. But unlike other classic Disney (and Universal) attractions, the "story" isn't apparent to the guests, so they're not really given an opportunity to "understand" it or not.

"Plot twists and conflicts"??? Ummm... we're still talking about the same 3 minute ride, aren't we?

I love how Epcotservo goes about supporting his vague points....He just piles on additional vague points without providing any details. :hammer:

So what is your point exactly :veryconfu

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

So what is your point exactly :veryconfu

His point is..............

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

First, it should be obvious that I can't divulge who I am . .

You are the Caped Creative Master and I claim my £5.

 

[jt04]

His point is..............

You are the Caped Creative Master and I claim my £5.

:ROFLOL::ROFLOL:

I bow before you oh great Mr Nak. You are my hero.

 

[whylightbulb]

I think this is where Disney has fallen so short of late ... they go for the gimmick over the immersion ... I like TSMM, especially when compared to other recent efforts, but it could be so much more.

I just don't believe they want to build those attractions in Florida anymore. In Tokyo? Sure. In Paris? Yep. In Anaheim? well, it does seem like they're trying at least ... here in The Timeshare Kingdom of the World?

Well, EE and TSMM are a helluva lot better than SGE, Primeval Whirl, MILF, Aladdin's spinner etc ...

I do agree that EE and TSMM are better than those examples. I think Disney is just going for what people will find fun, not what will exceed their expectations. Under the current management it will get to the point where they won't have to spend any more money than Six Flags does for each new project. Or worse yet, they'll reduce scope and budget to the point where they still need to appease the prima dona art directors and managers at WDI and still have enough left over for some kind of ride.

Of course that is where much of the money goes in projects such as EE and TSMM. I've given a few examples of the wasted budget in TSMM in other posts.

I truly hope that people are listnening to our posts. You and I both know that there are people on these boards that have the power to do things about these issues. As far as the Disney fans, they have power as well. They can choose not to accept the garbage coming out of Burbank and Glendale these days and help force management into some action.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

HALF? Now I definitely have to go to Disneyland.

*counts change*

Wait a tic...

Have you been to any Disney parks outside of Orlando?

Your statement above leads me to believe that maybe you haven't.

And if that's the case... I wonder if a more broad perspective of what the other parks offer would change your opinions to something a bit more in line with what I and others seem to think about the state of WDW.

I can tell you that's when things started bothering me... When I saw what else was out there. I almost started to feel cheated.

 

[jt04]

Wait a tic...

Have you been to any Disney parks outside of Orlando?

Your statement above leads me to believe that maybe you haven't.

And if that's the case... I wonder if a more broad perspective of what the other parks offer would change your opinions to something a bit more in line with what I and others seem to think about the state of WDW.

I can tell you that's when things started bothering me... When I saw what else was out there. I almost started to feel cheated.

I have been to DL. But I don't think I rode Pirates because I thought the WDW one was a clone :hammer::brick::dazzle:

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I have been to DL. But I don't think I rode Pirates because I thought the WDW one was a clone :hammer::brick::dazzle:

OUCH. :lookaroun :lol:

You definitely missed a prime example of how WDW is surpassed in quality on THAT one.

Although... 'Tis true... That happened decades ago and wasn't a result of the current trend at WDW.

I would argue, though, that the shoddy state of upkeep vs. its DL counterpart was.

 

[gettingsmaller]

I'll bite ... what signs are you referring to?

And, I'll throw in an opinion, and that's that I'll take PIXAR's management over the politically fueled vipers nest (with dueling divas) that has been WDI for over a decade.

Just so I'm crystal clear, I feel Rasulo is absolutely a symbol of all that is wrong with Disney P&R these days.

And folks say I'm dramatic ... please explain why Pixar equals the downfall of Disney and not all the dumb a$$ moves made by management since the rise of the consultants in the 1990s. I'd love to hear it!

I have not paid enough attention to Disney to be familiar with people's names, firings, etc., BUT to the Pixar haters, I would say this: why was Pixar so successful? I'd say that it was because they delivered a superior product in a market where Disney was king. Disney lost its vision counting beans, and Pixar filled the gap. If there are lots of Disney management types being ousted right now, aren't they the ones who were in charge when Disney lost it? If they are being replaced by Pixar people, aren't they being replaced by people who were part of Pixar when Pixar was in the process of beating Disney at its own game? Is it bad if people with vision end up replacing people who are so short-sighted they are only fit for counting beans?

Whatever happens, I enjoy WDW, and I really hope that Disney management will begin to look past the short term. It's very costly to regain lost goodwill, customer loyalty, etc..

We've been two times in two years, and I'm looking into alternative vacations this for year.

 

[tirian]

OUCH. :lookaroun :lol:

You definitely missed a prime example of how WDW is surpassed in quality on THAT one.

Although... 'Tis true... That happened decades ago and wasn't a result of the current trend at WDW.

Yeah, PoTC was shoehorned into WDW, but there was a hope...a slight, tiny hope...that WRE was still going to be built. In fact, it stayed on guidemaps as a "Coming Soon" attraction even after POTC opened. WDI figured it didn't matter if there were fewer Pirates, as long as Florida got the gigantic WRE. But it was not to be...

I would argue, though, that the shoddy state of upkeep vs. its DL counterpart was.

I don't understand the current state of thinking throughout much of WDI. To many (not all) Imagineers, DL is the "golden original" while WDW is the money-maker in Florida. It wasn't always this way. Back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, they saw WDW as the place to build what they couldn't do in CA. Although I don't advocate abandoning DL, I must point out that Walt was ready to move everything to Florida, because he saw the potential in owning so much land. I guarantee you that he didn't dream of a land of timeshares. Heck, even Card Walker and Michael Eisner didn't dream of that—otherwise we wouldn't have Epcot, DHS, or DAK.

If I could, I'd fix it all this way:

1. Replace the overpaid execs who have milked the parks as cash cows without properly investing into the infrastructures. They don't understand their own product as anything but Pixie Dust, and have lost the sense of opportunity prevelant from 1955 through the mid 90s.

2. Get new blood into WDI. When did the same people who created Splash Mountain and Horizons get nostalgic and gimmicky? And sorry to burst bubbles—foaming fanboys don't make good Imagineers, either.

3. Separate the properties again, and let them operate semi-independently instead of this "Disney Parks" crap that has reduced each one to another branch of a chain store.

4. Rip power away from marketing departments and work carefully to make sure the entire Disney universe is represented at the parks, not just princesses and pirates. The parks are supposed to be places where Guests can explore everything Disney has to offer, NOT places where the exact same marketing campaigns splashed across Wal-Mart and Target are puked across everything ad nauseum.

5. Balance short-term and long-term investments again, the way things used to be run before shortsighted people couldn't look further than last week's profits. Insist on OLC-level quality, and a return to the perfectionism and values that made Disney theme parks famous in the first place. Traditional maintenance schedules, food quality levels, and project timetables would be dusted off and reinstated. I know that times change, but slashing budgets from these things is not a wise way to run a business.

 

[whylightbulb]

Wait a tic...

Have you been to any Disney parks outside of Orlando?

Your statement above leads me to believe that maybe you haven't.

And if that's the case... I wonder if a more broad perspective of what the other parks offer would change your opinions to something a bit more in line with what I and others seem to think about the state of WDW.

I can tell you that's when things started bothering me... When I saw what else was out there. I almost started to feel cheated.

Yes you have expressed the sentiment I feel as well when visiting WDW. I've been to every Disney theme park around the world and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that every park, with the exception of the current California Adventure and Hong Kong, is leaps and bounds better than WDW. It's almost as though a different company built them. So now Hong Kong and CA are getting massive upgrades and expansion while WDW is gettting American Idol.

I don't know of anyone that has been to Tokyo DisneySea that can stomach the depression upon first returning to WDW. I can easily say that a good comparison would be visiting Disneyland then going to Six Flags Magic Mountain with its filth, gangs and low grade themeing.

On top of this I was reading an article about the Oriental Land Company. They were talking about how bad the Japanese economy is right now. Their attitude regarding expansion for Tokyo Disney: Because the economy is so bad they had better step up their expansion plans so people will have incentive to come back. Wow...WDW management is so inept, incompetant and shortsighted to the point that they can't see that logic?

 

[imagineer boy]

I can tell you that's when things started bothering me... When I saw what else was out there. I almost started to feel cheated.

I remember when DCA opened, there was tons of coverage about it in the Disney magazine with tons of pictures and descriptions of the rides. But when TDS opened, there was a small article on it and they only showed a few concept art pictures. Later when I saw the travel channel special on TDL and several internet site pictures, I felt the same way.

 

[whylightbulb]

I remember when DCA opened, there was tons of coverage about it in the Disney magazine with tons of pictures and descriptions of the rides. But when TDS opened, there was a small article on it and they only showed a few concept art pictures. Later when I saw the travel channel special on TDL and several internet site pictures, I felt the same way.

I can tell you that the pictures don't do it justice. Until you step through the gates to encounter the massive DisneySea globe with its amazing detail framed by the Mira Costa exterior you have no idea what immersive themeing is. Every custom lamp fixture to every nook and cranny of this park will take you by surprise. I'm not exagerating. There is creative detail to be enjoyed everywhere you look and hear. There is no comparison to the attractions in Tokyo either. You could spend hours in each land just walking around. Anyway...I know this has been discussed before but I wanted to go off on a positive tangent for a change.