Slash and Burn ...

[mcjaco]

On a business trip last Spring, I spent a day at HKDL. Could not BELIEVE how small it was. There's no way to even really describe it. I walked from the corner of Tomorrowland (at the autopia) over to the Jungle Cruise (the opposite edge) and it maybe took 30 seconds.

OK, let's not exagerate. It's not that small.

Everything I've heard from the friends I have that have been there, is that it is small (Disneyland small), and that there really isn't enough to do. It is, however, one of the best kept and most beautiful parks.

 

[imagineer boy]

Disneyland is still like that in 2008, only more so. Now Disneyland offers Christmas fireworks, Small World Holiday, Haunted Mansion Holiday, Santa's Reindeer Roundup in the Big Thunder petting zoo with live reindeer trucked down from Alaska, and far more decorations all over the park instead of just Main Street and the Hub.

I would dare say Disneyland does three times the amount of stuff for Christmas now in '08 than it did back in '96 when they were just getting started on the Christmas push. Every year they seem to add more and more. This year it was the LED Christmas Tree and the Main Street garlands that put on the show when it snows three times a night. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlD-jbFrcZQ&NR=1

I've just learned that WDW doesn't start doing the Christmas parade for regular day guests until right before Christmas Day. That's just bizarre compared to Disneyland. Seriously, I was flabbergasted, and I can't figure out how Magic Kingdom Guest Relations isn't stormed by angry customers at the end of each December day without a Christmas parade.

I simply don't understand how WDW gets away with some of the stuff it has been doing in recent years. Which, I suppose, is the point of this whole thread.

Don't forget about Disneyland's Halloween decorations. The whole park practically decked out in the decorations while WDW barely has any.

 

[Master Yoda]

Disneyland is still like that in 2008, only more so. Now Disneyland offers Christmas fireworks, Small World Holiday, Haunted Mansion Holiday, Santa's Reindeer Roundup in the Big Thunder petting zoo with live reindeer trucked down from Alaska, and far more decorations all over the park instead of just Main Street and the Hub.

I would dare say Disneyland does three times the amount of stuff for Christmas now in '08 than it did back in '96 when they were just getting started on the Christmas push. Every year they seem to add more and more. This year it was the LED Christmas Tree and the Main Street garlands that put on the show when it snows three times a night. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlD-jbFrcZQ&NR=1

I've just learned that WDW doesn't start doing the Christmas parade for regular day guests until right before Christmas Day. That's just bizarre compared to Disneyland. Seriously, I was flabbergasted, and I can't figure out how Magic Kingdom Guest Relations isn't stormed by angry customers at the end of each December day without a Christmas parade.

I simply don't understand how WDW gets away with some of the stuff it has been doing in recent years. Which, I suppose, is the point of this whole thread.

This has been brought up time and time again and the answer is still the same. DL and WDW have drastically different customer bases. DL's core customer are local AP holders. The way you get more local AP holders into the parks is by making them become a different experience from one season to the next. Holiday overlays are a real good way to do this. WDW's customer base is made up of people from all over the world that might only get to WDW every few years. Holiday overlays do not attract the guest that visits WDW only every 2 to three years. In fact most would be pretty aggravated by them. If someone travels all the way from England for their biannual trip across the pond to WDW only to find their beloved HM taken over by some skinny skeleton dude they will freak out.

Like everything else it all comes down to return on investment. As a business you do not spend big bucks to do something unless you will get your investment plus some back. WDW has found that seasonal overlays do not bring in extra money. From my understanding they do not even break even on them.

 

[tirian]

^^ That's partly true, but only for certain attractions. Here are the reasons...

1. The holiday overlays allow short-term refurbs that have to happen anyway. The attractions would be closed in October and January, which is when most refurbs already occur.

2. Some overlays barely require any time at all, such as the CBJ Christmas show.

3. I agree that HMH is overkill, especially since the movie's demographic isn't nearly as widespread as the classic HM's. I suspect that many of the international Guests visiting WDW have never seen NBC and wouldn't know what was going on. IMO, Disney could still decorate the HM a little, with ragged wreaths, tattered garlands, and even a ghostly Christmas tree in the ballroom. This could occur overnight.

4. There is NO reason not to run the Christmas parade earlier than Christmas week, except to sell tickets to MVMCP.

****

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I'll finally pipe in (not that anybody cares).

Slash and Burn is in effect right now because of the economy. Most of the park leadership is ridiculously short-sighted and they're not planning for long-term returns. But the whole place isn't falling apart, and I don't think WDW1974 is saying it is. Refurbishments are going forward as planned, the Space Mt. refurb is longer than expected, and new attractions will eventually dwindle down to the parks. WDW existed perfectly fine from 1971–1982 with only about two significant additions to the MK.

The problem is that everything being done has already been planned, and park execs are so short-sighted that they aren't properly planning for the FUTURE. That's what has WDW1974 and a whole lot of other people very concerned. Most of the cuts are affecting the MK, too, which needs refurbishment and refreshed attractions more than any other park.

I don't think anybody expects Disney to dump money into the park during our recession. We just want them to be ready for the economic rebound.

Food for thought: if Disney would have invested into the MK properly for the last twenty years (let's say one more E-ticket, two D's, and possibly a C or B), none of this would matter right now because the park would be able to sustain refurbishments and economic-minded cuts without affecting Guests too much. In other words, it would be more like DL.

 

[One Lil Spark]

Food for thought: if Disney would have invested into the MK properly for the last twenty years (let's say one more E-ticket, two D's, and possibly a C or B), none of this would matter right now because the park would be able to sustain refurbishments and economic-minded cuts without affecting Guests too much. In other words, it would be more like DL.

Thanks for your post... :wave:

Now, if all this is true, WHY wouldn't they have invested properly for the last 20 years so WDW would be more like DL? Not calling you out in the slightest, just wondering why WDW was short-changed...?

 

[tirian]

Thanks for your post... :wave:

Now, if all this is true, WHY wouldn't they have invested properly for the last 20 years so WDW would be more like DL? Not calling you out in the slightest, just wondering why WDW was short-changed...?

Because the leaders have been short-sighted for years. MK is the cash cow, and they were happy as long as the park continued to roll in money. Why invest in a park that's already making money when WDW Guests only visit an average of 1–3 times in their LIVES, right? That's what they thought.

The problem is, management underestimated the DVC's popularity. Now a significant percentage of Guests visit several times a year, and they're not happy that the most famous theme park on earth is almost exactly the same as it was in 1995. Let's also look at the fact that an E-ticket was pulled out with no replacement (20K), and another E-ticket was replaced with a C (AE/Stitch).

IMO, this goes beyond simple business strategy. This reveals a distinct lack of interest in the park itself. The MK's leaders should have insisted on refreshments, significant refurbs, and a few new attractions simply because they cared about offering the very best in "their" park. Where's the sense of ownership? responsibility? caring?

How long has the MK been running a version of the exact same day parade?

p.s. I truly love the MK, and I'm complaining only because I want to see it get the TLC it needs.

EDIT: By the way, WDW received much better care during the 1990s and early 2000s than DL, which basically fell apart. The only reason DL is shining right now is that Matt Oimet (sp?) fixed the place up for its 50th anniversary. But the MK only maintained the status quo, which leads to the points I make above.

 

[jt04]

Maybe they will offer some kind of bond sale to keep the parks "refreshed".

Yeah that's it. And it could be for 1 BILLION Dollars. :drevil:

Seems like a good idea to me.

The only question is how long until someone here takes credit for the idea?

 

[PhilharMagician]

On a business trip last Spring, I spent a day at HKDL. Could not BELIEVE how small it was. There's no way to even really describe it. I walked from the corner of Tomorrowland (at the autopia) over to the Jungle Cruise (the opposite edge) and it maybe took 30 seconds. I'm probably being generous. And there was hardly anything to do. I was done with the whole park within a few hours, and that included the FotLK show.

I completely understand why they're infusing the money. The park is empty. Everyone over there was excited about the resort coming, but then felt very short changed once it opened. Plus there's a competing park not that far away that's much larger and has tons more attractions. I think this was a case of Disney feeling like it was smart to stick their toe in the open door, and worry about opening the rest of the door later. No one planned for the economy to do what it has.

Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

I don't disagree that HKDL doesn't need lots of help, but so does WDW. Money only seems to go oneway in FL and that is out. I was really pleased back for the DL 50th anniversary, but that was the last of the Eisner decades fading into the distance. I was surprised how much attention WDW got LMA, Soarin', EE and MK got the shaft in Cinderellabration.

WDW get +3 times the traffic that DL and DCA get and gets 1/2 of the attention. Maybe we could get OLC to take over WDW and fix it up. At least they seem to have the right idea for a Disney park. They kind of remind me of the stories of how Walt used to run the WDC.

 

[tirian]

Yes, the MK has gotten the shaft far too long. It's getting the refurbs it needs now, but why has it taken so long? And why are some of the refurbs STILL half-finished (PoTC speakers, for example)?

We know the answer.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

OK, let's not exagerate. It's not that small.

Everything I've heard from the friends I have that have been there, is that it is small (Disneyland small), and that there really isn't enough to do. It is, however, one of the best kept and most beautiful parks.

No, no. It is. Honestly. The autopia is right off the hub to the right, just past a restaurant and the entrance to Buzz Lightyear (with the ride buidling behind, similar to the MK. The autopia is right there and that's it. Literally right on the left side of the hub is their adventureland, with the Jungle Cruise to the right. That's it. I've been to Disneyland many times. This is no Disneyland.

The park is beautiful. That much is true. It was surreal to see mountains rising behind Sleeping Beauty Castle. But it's half a park. Main street, the hub, mini-tomorrowland, mini-adventureland, and a fantasyland that was BEAUTIFUL, but tiny. It got much needed help with the new IASW, but still.

I really and truely did time a walk from one side to the other, at a normal pace. It was so small I just had to do it. And it was darn near 30 seconds. I even documented it with pictures if I could figure out how to make that work well. I can't even multi-quote, let alone upload pics and post them!! :lol:

EDIT TO ADD: The proof in the pudding is that HKDL opened without a Pirates, IASW, Haunted Mansion, Thunder Mtn., or Splash Mtn... It's just half a park. I'd bet it's 20% smaller than DL. Definitely width wise.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I don't disagree that HKDL doesn't need lots of help, but so does WDW. Money only seems to go oneway in FL and that is out. I was really pleased back for the DL 50th anniversary, but that was the last of the Eisner decades fading into the distance. I was surprised how much attention WDW got LMA, Soarin', EE and MK got the shaft in Cinderellabration.

WDW get +3 times the traffic that DL and DCA get and gets 1/2 of the attention. Maybe we could get OLC to take over WDW and fix it up. At least they seem to have the right idea for a Disney park. They kind of remind me of the stories of how Walt used to run the WDC.

For sure. I totally agree. The difference is that people are still coming to Florida. They're slowing at HKDL and threatening worse.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, if you will.

 

[imagineer boy]

Acourding to wikipedia HKDL is the smallest Magic Kingdom park. I don't know if its the smallest park Disney's ever built ( I think that honor goes to Disney Studios Paris ). It really is kinda sad that Disney built the wonder that is Disney sea right across the way, then they build this small, sad little park that's struggling with its attendance. But there's a lot of potential for agressive expansion. Disney should simply add all of the classic attractions and a few new ones here and there and it should do fine.

 

[TP2000]

Someone with far better skills than me could post a picture showing the outlines of the five Disneyland style parks overlayed on each other in the same scale. That would show the difference in size and acreage of each of the parks in comparison to each other. Each park outline could be drawn in a different color so you could see the differences clearly.

It would actually make for a neat image, I would think. Any volunteers?

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Acourding to wikipedia HKDL is the smallest Magic Kingdom park. I don't know if its the smallest park Disney's ever built ( I think that honor goes to Disney Studios Paris ). It really is kinda sad that Disney built the wonder that is Disney sea right across the way, then they build this small, sad little park that's struggling with its attendance. But there's a lot of potential for agressive expansion. Disney should simply add all of the classic attractions and a few new ones here and there and it should do fine.

True. If by "right across the way," you mean 1,800 miles away. :lookaroun



(Just messin' with ya a bit. They do look close on the map when you're on this side of the world.) :lol:

 

[disney9752]

^^ That's partly true, but only for certain attractions. Here are the reasons...

1. The holiday overlays allow short-term refurbs that have to happen anyway. The attractions would be closed in October and January, which is when most refurbs already occur.

2. Some overlays barely require any time at all, such as the CBJ Christmas show.

3. I agree that HMH is overkill, especially since the movie's demographic isn't nearly as widespread as the classic HM's. I suspect that many of the international Guests visiting WDW have never seen NBC and wouldn't know what was going on. IMO, Disney could still decorate the HM a little, with ragged wreaths, tattered garlands, and even a ghostly Christmas tree in the ballroom. This could occur overnight.

4. There is NO reason not to run the Christmas parade earlier than Christmas week, except to sell tickets to MVMCP.

****

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I'll finally pipe in (not that anybody cares).

Slash and Burn is in effect right now because of the economy. Most of the park leadership is ridiculously short-sighted and they're not planning for long-term returns. But the whole place isn't falling apart, and I don't think WDW1974 is saying it is. Refurbishments are going forward as planned, the Space Mt. refurb is longer than expected, and new attractions will eventually dwindle down to the parks. WDW existed perfectly fine from 1971–1982 with only about two significant additions to the MK.

The problem is that everything being done has already been planned, and park execs are so short-sighted that they aren't properly planning for the FUTURE. That's what has WDW1974 and a whole lot of other people very concerned. Most of the cuts are affecting the MK, too, which needs refurbishment and refreshed attractions more than any other park.

I don't think anybody expects Disney to dump money into the park during our recession. We just want them to be ready for the economic rebound.

Food for thought: if Disney would have invested into the MK properly for the last twenty years (let's say one more E-ticket, two D's, and possibly a C or B), none of this would matter right now because the park would be able to sustain refurbishments and economic-minded cuts without affecting Guests too much. In other words, it would be more like DL.

ummm the only comment or question i have. 2 additons from 71-82??????????? lets see, pirates openend in 73, tsi in 73 or 75 i belive, btmrr in 79 i think, sp, tta, cop, in 75. :hammer:

 

[WDW1974]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TP2000
I simply don't understand how WDW gets away with some of the stuff it has been doing in recent years.

Because if reading here is a gauge, Its Disney, just be thankful they have been willing to take your money, put up, shut up and worship the Mouse in all his asinine glory.

Complaints will be ridiculed, complainants demonised, there is only one orthodoxy anything else is heresy. On your knees and kiss those red shoes.

Uhm ... well ... yeah that kind of sums it up nicely.

WDW guests tend to go with the flow ... and they don't stop and ask questions.

And as I've said before, WDW has VERY few regulars who also were in the 70s and 80s.

Someone may have gone once in 1980 as a six-year-old, returned in 1988 with their high school band and became a 'regular' when they honeymooned there in 1999. ... Or they just didn't start visiting, even as an adult, until say 2002.

The people who were there often in 1978, 1988, 1998 and 2008 ... well, there's one right here ... any others? ... they know better. They have perspective on where WDW was and where it's going that newbies don't. It's that simple.

 

[WDW1974]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
I'm sure some people here won't believe it, but one marketing exec brought the term up at TDO and there was a very ugly incident and she was told she'd lose her job if she ever quoted me again. Stuff like that warms the cockells of my heart.

I thought marketing execs were untouchable. How was the term used, out of casual curiosity?

It was in a meeting discussing how to beef up marketing campaigns like YoaMD so they didn't seem so superficial.

The person in question referred to the fact many APers felt they were lacking in substance ... it was kind of an off the cuff comment ... I don't want to state anything else (for what should be obvious reasons) but it was made clear that if she used that phrase again, she's be looking for work at a WalMart and wasn't treated professionally at all.

Guess that happens when you pin the tail on the jackass(es).

 

[WDW1974]

On a business trip last Spring, I spent a day at HKDL. Could not BELIEVE how small it was. There's no way to even really describe it. I walked from the corner of Tomorrowland (at the autopia) over to the Jungle Cruise (the opposite edge) and it maybe took 30 seconds. I'm probably being generous. And there was hardly anything to do. I was done with the whole park within a few hours, and that included the FotLK show.

I completely understand why they're infusing the money. The park is empty. Everyone over there was excited about the resort coming, but then felt very short changed once it opened. Plus there's a competing park not that far away that's much larger and has tons more attractions. I think this was a case of Disney feeling like it was smart to stick their toe in the open door, and worry about opening the rest of the door later. No one planned for the economy to do what it has.

Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

I have to disagree with your assessment of HKDL.

I spent the summer in China working on the Beijing Games. When they concluded I took a vacation in HK and spent one day (and dinner at a hotel another night) at HKDL.

I went in fully expecting to have issues with the place, but I found it lovely ... and charming ... and it had enough to keep me busy on a 10-9 operating day (I didn't do about 5-6 attractions, although I did ride Space Mountain five times and Small World twice and see both stage shows, both parades, have two meals, and see the fireworks). I also took a walk to the HKDL Hotel for 90 minutes, so to be fair I could have done everything ... but if I don't ride Dumbo and Tea Cups in the US parks, why would I there?

I have posted a looooong trip report/observation thread on LP.com (if you or anyone else want to know indepth why I feel the way I did).

I fully went in expecting to see a small, clean, empty park ... but I was impressed by the details and the charm and the charming/amazing CMs. I didn't look at what wasn't there, but focused on what was.

I was shocked by how much I liked the place. I didn't pay for tickets, but if I had they would have been $46 US ($40 on non-peak days) and by that metric, I certainly would have gotten my money's worth.

I guess the bottom line is any MK-style park has an inate feeling of magic to it. I sure can't say my first visits to DCA or DSP filled me with such joy, even if one could easily argue that both have more and better attractions than HKDL does at this point.

What HKDL lacks in attractions it (almost) makes up in live entertainment offerings, details, cleanliness, CMs, food quality ... and spectacular location and landscaping.

It's really a shame that 40-45% of the park literally got lopped off AFTER Disney and the HK SAR signed the contracts to build.

If Disney had included even half of what was left out of the original plans, I think people would view it very differently.

That said, I'd still advise any Disney fan visiting HK to spend a day there ... but just one at present!

 

[WDW1974]

So what you are saying in a round about way is Disney still hasn't learned that to open a half built parks isn't popular. The spirit of Eisner is alive and well

No.

That template at the company has been tossed.

The half-day bull crap way of building is history.

If Shanghai DL becomes a reality it is going to be a very kewl and very different MK style park. And it will be worthy of a full day or two to see it all.

 

[WDW1974]

74 raves about HKDL.

He's doing so right now too!

And he wishes he could be there for their Christmas festivities (they don't look stale like WDW's!) Ho :xmas: Ho :xmas: Ho :xmas: