Plan C for Pleasure Island

[The Mom]

Great point by Lee here ... and one that we talk about frequently, but I wish people from the 'Disney is just making a smart business choice and giving folks what they say they want crowd' would read and think about and let sink into the very fiber of their fandom.



And the concept of retail as show died very quickly with it. How many folks walk through the Adventureland flea market/outlet mall and even realize that there once were a half a dozen unique shops and that they're walled off and used for storage of pirate swords and as offices now?

How many people get that the MK wasn't all about selling the Disney BRAND, but transporting people to different times and places and selling merchandise that told the story? And do those same folks get that the lands are basically meaningless now. Might as well be a Six Flags with nicer attractions and facades.

If show matters, then you need to have shops that may barely make money or even show a paper loss.

Of course, with all those 500-pounders in their ECVs, can you imagine if the antique shop still existed?

Maybe we should all just accept that we live in a Walmarted nation and be happy at the Walmarted World of Disney?



THIS!

Having pins and vinyl and Tink hoodies in every shop does NOT increase the amount of money spent on said items. If you don't want them, then you aren't buying even if ''that's all we have'' ... or if your quota is one Goofy tee, you aren't going to suddenly buy 16 because you see it 16 different places.

They do not get this at all.

The only place Disney is making more money, arguably I'd say, is by not creating more product and not buying more from different vendors.

But destroying retail at the MK hasn't resulted in people buying Donald hats from people who never wanted one before.



Who cares? No one will have time for that with their entire days planned out a year in advance with X-Pass.

Now to a topic where I have a genuine interest - shopping. :lol:

I DO remember all of the little niche stores, and frequently made purchases. Summer earrings and tops from the kiosks in Adventureland (I do remember them, and stopped every trip), and my husband (and now my son) are still frightening Trick or Treaters with a mask purchased at the Magic Shop on Main St - it was a must for them every trip. I have a brass bellows that I purchased in Moroco way back when. I haven't seen any like it in years - I stopped looking at least a decade ago.


The list of items unique to each store was endless, and there was even a time when you had to actually go to WDW or DL to get most Disney themed items - so they were real souvenirs.

It's been a long, long time since I've purchased more than food and drink at WDW.

 

[John]

As I said in my earlier post, the small and unique shops were in no way putting a strain on anything. The company's profits were just as high as they are now, and guest satisfaction at high levels.

Some shops were intended to be part of the show, not to be huge money makers. Magic Shop, Antique Shop, Perfume Shop, etc. All were designed not only to make some money, but to add to the theme and ambience of the area in which they were located. The original Imagineers and park operators understood that, and placed a higher value on show than on the P&L statement of the churro cart.

Again, you are looking at Disney as a normal business, where ordinary business practice makes good sense. It isn't and it doesn't.
Show must always come before Efficiency. It is what sets Disney apart from the competition, and makes it the "magical" place it has always been.
The Keys were put in that order for a reason, by people much smarter than those who currently call the shots.

There is nothing more that needs to be said....case closed!

 

[DznyRktekt]

More dancing = better fitness...resulting in a reduction in demand for ECV's

 

[Master Gracey]

ADH is empty because it's lame.

Jellyrolls is awesome, and usually packs a crowd.

Another sad loss due to Mismanagement. There was once upon a time when Atlantic Dance Hall featured a live swing band a resembled a private club from a movie based in the 20's or 30's (the Colbalt Club from the Shadow comes to mind) and you felt compelled to don your finest pinstriped suit or tuxedo just to walk in. Unfortunately somewhere along the lines someone decided to make it a carbon copy of Motion and ruin an otherwise beautiful and unique nightclub.

 

[AvengersWDW]

Another sad loss due to Mismanagement. There was once upon a time when Atlantic Dance Hall featured a live swing band a resembled a private club from a movie based in the 20's or 30's (the Colbalt Club from the Shadow comes to mind) and you felt compelled to don your finest pinstriped suit or tuxedo just to walk in. Unfortunately somewhere along the lines someone decided to make it a carbon copy of Motion and ruin an otherwise beautiful and unique nightclub.

I wish ADH was better...i do love Jellyrolls...

 

[devoy1701]

Using your lack of logic nothing in DTD would ever close base upon revenue since the parks are profitable. So you think that if everything was deep in the red it would stay open? LOL you really need to go back to school if you think that

nobody said anything along the lines of the company should not drill down farther than the entire resort as a whole for quotas and margins. That would be absurd.

What we did say (and how the resort was ran for the first 25ish years of operation) was looking at each entertainment area as a whole and not drilling down to each individual establishment. ie: look at how MK is operating as a whole, but also look how each land is operating, but not how each eatery and retail establishment was (or wasn't) individually profitable. This is where we say goodbye to Aunt Polly's and hello to SuperEmporium.

Downtown Disney should be looked at as either an entire entertainment complex or at the 3 separate Districts. But to look at each and every single establishment, removing those who have the smallest margins is nonsense. I'm not going to waste my time going to DtD to buy a WDW T-shirt and a new Vinylmation...I can do that at any of ther 500 retail locations in the 4 theme parks...

Without Niche retail or experiences, WDW succeeded in giving me absolutely no reason to head over to DtD.

 

[baymenxpac]

wow avengers is hardcore trollin'. gotta respect the dedication.

listen, we all have to acknowledge when we're out of our depth in an argument. if you're butting heads with lee and '74 about numbers, profitability and sentiment at TDO, you're pretty much lost. i'm not saying you always have to agree with them, but they're offering you black and white facts. it's like if you asked me, without ever meeting me, what's in my medicine cabinet, i told you and you told me i was wrong.

one component that came up throughout all this i found very interesting was the sterilization of the small, unique shops. i remember i bought a signed matt williams rookie card back in the '90s at the athletics shop on main street. it used to sell all kinds of fantastic, real sports memorabilia. it absolutely bummed me out the first time i stepped in the place and all i saw was mickey polos.

overall, i'm not a guy who loved PI. i experienced the AC in its heyday (which was AWESOME), but by the time i got back there and i was of legal drinking age and went with a group of friends for the first time instead of the 'rents, it was practically dead. now, being a later 20s, married guy, it would be awesome if there was a place my wife and i could go for more than the usual night out in disney. we frequent the boardwalk and a solid PI replacement would be a great way to fill the void. i suppose time will tell...

 

[RSoxNo1]

As I said in my earlier post, the small and unique shops were in no way putting a strain on anything. The company's profits were just as high as they are now, and guest satisfaction at high levels.

Some shops were intended to be part of the show, not to be huge money makers. Magic Shop, Antique Shop, Perfume Shop, etc. All were designed not only to make some money, but to add to the theme and ambience of the area in which they were located. The original Imagineers and park operators understood that, and placed a higher value on show than on the P&L statement of the churro cart.

Again, you are looking at Disney as a normal business, where ordinary business practice makes good sense. It isn't and it doesn't.
Show must always come before Efficiency. It is what sets Disney apart from the competition, and makes it the "magical" place it has always been.
The Keys were put in that order for a reason, by people much smarter than those who currently call the shots.

Lee, have you seen information that confirms that the revenue generated by the shops was at or above the numbers of 10-15 years ago prior to the unique shops closing? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of more of these unique shops and an elimination of the generic merchandise in non-generic shops, but it seems hard to believe that there hasn't been some increase in profits. The question I would ask to that is teh same one I assume you would ask - is it really worth it to take away from the experience for a few extra dollars?

 

[JenniferS]

I'm starting to think this whole thread is a ruse.

I'm starting to think someone is arguing just to increase his post count.

 

[AvengersWDW]

nobody said anything along the lines of the company should not drill down farther than the entire resort as a whole for quotas and margins. That would be absurd.

What we did say (and how the resort was ran for the first 25ish years of operation) was looking at each entertainment area as a whole and not drilling down to each individual establishment. ie: look at how MK is operating as a whole, but also look how each land is operating, but not how each eatery and retail establishment was (or wasn't) individually profitable. This is where we say goodbye to Aunt Polly's and hello to SuperEmporium.

Downtown Disney should be looked at as either an entire entertainment complex or at the 3 separate Districts. But to look at each and every single establishment, removing those who have the smallest margins is nonsense. I'm not going to waste my time going to DtD to buy a WDW T-shirt and a new Vinylmation...I can do that at any of ther 500 retail locations in the 4 theme parks...

Without Niche retail or experiences, WDW succeeded in giving me absolutely no reason to head over to DtD.

Here is where i will agree with you. DTD should of been run as either three separate or two separate parts. PI by itself, then either Marketplace and West Side together or separate.

You think there is no reason to go to DTD yet you spit upon what they have. While yes you can get Vinylmation everywhere, D Street has everything plus some material that you can only get there. Trend D has stuff you can only get there. WOD is a one stop place to find merch that you may not have time to go get and the store that normally sells it. Your blind hatred has made you gloss over the simple fact that there are many reasons to go to DTD

 

[AvengersWDW]

I'm starting to think someone is arguing just to increase his post count.

Oh yeah that is totally the case...god honestly it is sad that if you dont drink the PI Kool-aid then you are just a troll. Go ahead doom and gloomer, post away while i will use my brain.....

 

[AvengersWDW]

wow avengers is hardcore trollin'. gotta respect the dedication.

listen, we all have to acknowledge when we're out of our depth in an argument. if you're butting heads with lee and '74 about numbers, profitability and sentiment at TDO, you're pretty much lost. i'm not saying you always have to agree with them, but they're offering you black and white facts. it's like if you asked me, without ever meeting me, what's in my medicine cabinet, i told you and you told me i was wrong.

one component that came up throughout all this i found very interesting was the sterilization of the small, unique shops. i remember i bought a signed matt williams rookie card back in the '90s at the athletics shop on main street. it used to sell all kinds of fantastic, real sports memorabilia. it absolutely bummed me out the first time i stepped in the place and all i saw was mickey polos.

overall, i'm not a guy who loved PI. i experienced the AC in its heyday (which was AWESOME), but by the time i got back there and i was of legal drinking age and went with a group of friends for the first time instead of the 'rents, it was practically dead. now, being a later 20s, married guy, it would be awesome if there was a place my wife and i could go for more than the usual night out in disney. we frequent the boardwalk and a solid PI replacement would be a great way to fill the void. i suppose time will tell...

Saying that PI was amazing is not a fact. Lee offered some facts, the rest is just OPINION.

I agree with the last part of your statement. I think that is why i liked to go to JellyRolls and the bars at the resorts.

 

[Ignohippo]

Lee, you've hit it right on the nose. What some people are missing is that the "niche" retail outlets was like another attraction. Space Mountain doesn't make a dime – costs the Disney Company money to run – so should we just take all of the rides out of Disney World?

The niche shops, clubs, etc. are part of what gives WDW it's appeal. As it is now, Disney is giving up on a complete demographic by not having more adult offerings and it's on it's way to becoming "just another theme park" if it doesn't step up its game on attractions and merchandise.

 

[devoy1701]

Here is where i will agree with you. DTD should of been run as either three separate or two separate parts. PI by itself, then either Marketplace and West Side together or separate.

You think there is no reason to go to DTD yet you spit upon what they have. While yes you can get Vinylmation everywhere, D Street has everything plus some material that you can only get there. Trend D has stuff you can only get there. WOD is a one stop place to find merch that you may not have time to go get and the store that normally sells it. Your blind hatred has made you gloss over the simple fact that there are many reasons to go to DTD

Trend D is anything but, selling crap Disney stuff with the Nerd overlay...and Vinyls...both which I can get in the parks if I wanted them, which I don't.

And WoD is hell in WDW...seriously one of the worst stores in creation in terms of layout and merchandise. I don't care if it's the flagship store. Not to mention I'm not looking for cheap made-for-$2 souveniers that I can buy from the comfort of my own home on disneyshopping.com (for a much better price too!).

 

[Ignohippo]

If PI had one major downfall (and there were many), it's that it wasn't built as its own resort area. Put PI off to one end of DTD and build a hotel or two for adults and you'd have a monstrous success.

The problem with PI was that it was in the middle of an all-ages retail area. It was seen as an impediment to the truly profitable retail core of DTD and that is what got it closed.

 

[DznyRktekt]

Now to a topic where I have a genuine interest - shopping. :lol:

I DO remember all of the little niche stores, and frequently made purchases. Summer earrings and tops from the kiosks in Adventureland (I do remember them, and stopped every trip), and my husband (and now my son) are still frightening Trick or Treaters with a mask purchased at the Magic Shop on Main St - it was a must for them every trip. I have a brass bellows that I purchased in Moroco way back when. I haven't seen any like it in years - I stopped looking at least a decade ago.


The list of items unique to each store was endless, and there was even a time when you had to actually go to WDW or DL to get most Disney themed items - so they were real souvenirs.

It's been a long, long time since I've purchased more than food and drink at WDW.

Agreed! Very sad when the most unique item you can purchase in Liberty Square today is a Mickey glove oven mitt.

 

[AvengersWDW]

Trend D is anything but, selling crap Disney stuff with the Nerd overlay...and Vinyls...both which I can get in the parks if I wanted them, which I don't.

And WoD is hell in WDW...seriously one of the worst stores in creation in terms of layout and merchandise. I don't care if it's the flagship store. Not to mention I'm not looking for cheap made-for-$2 souveniers that I can buy from the comfort of my own home on disneyshopping.com (for a much better price too!).

Here we go again...you hate something so it automatically means that everyone hates it and has nothing positive....

Trend D does not sell Vinyls too which is another thing you have wrong. If you are going to attack it atleast be correct about what it sells.

Lol and you attack WoD...i just cant stop laughing. I should tell all those people who are leaving WDW to go back home that they should just not worry about going there to pick up an item they missed since according to one internet poster it is the DEVIL....

P.S. Close WoD and see what will happen when the biggest money maker is not there to help fund the entire WDW...

 

[Lee]

Lee, have you seen information that confirms that the revenue generated by the shops was at or above the numbers of 10-15 years ago prior to the unique shops closing? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of more of these unique shops and an elimination of the generic merchandise in non-generic shops, but it seems hard to believe that there hasn't been some increase in profits. The question I would ask to that is teh same one I assume you would ask - is it really worth it to take away from the experience for a few extra dollars?

Last question first.
No, it isn't worth a few extra dollars to sacrifice the unique shops. Not at all. The unique shops were what helped set the tone and atmosphere of each land. As they were designed, profit was never the ultimate goal.

As I hear it, any overall increase in merch revenue is fairly small. Sure, the old athletic shop makes more sellng Mickey polos than it did when it sold sports memorabillia, but in turn, that polo shirt revenue is lost somewhere else.

And for the record, DTD is a different animal. Much of it is third-party operated. Those locations can and should be viewed on a store by store basis, and closed if the owner is losing money.
The parks and PI clubs were different. They were Disney owned/operated and existed for the enjoyment of it's guests. Like the mini-golf for instance. They didn't have to be big money-makers, but had to draw in enough guests to justify their existance, which by all accounts they did.

 

[AvengersWDW]

If PI had one major downfall (and there were many), it's that it wasn't built as its own resort area. Put PI off to one end of DTD and build a hotel or two for adults and you'd have a monstrous success.

The problem with PI was that it was in the middle of an all-ages retail area. It was seen as an impediment to the truly profitable retail core of DTD and that is what got it closed.

Until the West Side was built that was the case...it was fine back then...what they should do is make PI an actualy island built in the lake right there were you have to be 21 to take the boat to get there.

 

[AvengersWDW]

Last question first.
No, it isn't worth a few extra dollars to sacrifice the unique shops. Not at all. The unique shops were what helped set the tone and atmosphere of each land. As they were designed, profit was never the ultimate goal.

As I hear it, any overall increase in merch revenue is fairly small. Sure, the old athletic shop makes more sellng Mickey polos than it did when it sold sports memorabillia, but in turn, that polo shirt revenue is lost somewhere else.

And for the record, DTD is a different animal. Much of it is third-party operated. Those locations can and should be viewed on a store by store basis, and closed if the owner is losing money.
The parks and PI clubs were different. They were Disney owned/operated and existed for the enjoyment of it's guests. Like the mini-golf for instance. They didn't have to be big money-makers, but had to draw in enough guests to justify their existance, which by all accounts they did.

In all honesty i am still surprised the mini-golf places are still open, they never seem busy