OS: Confederate Flag Removed from Epcot

[WDW1974]

Yeah, no one wants to touch the much more serious problems either here or in the real world: too many guns, too much racism. ... a piece of fabric is much more of a danger to this country and its people. Sure.

 

[MichWolv]

Yeah, no one wants to touch the much more serious problems either here or in the real world: too many guns, too much racism. ... a piece of fabric is much more of a danger to this country and its people. Sure.

You want help working on those, I'm in.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

Remember, The Dukes of Hazzard was originally produced when Southern apologia and propaganda was quite arguably at it's height. Remember, the late 70s through to the end of the 1980s were a time when the Grand Wizard of the KKK could run for the GOP presidential nomination and not be met with an immediate and decisive "NO" from the American people. I don't think the intention of the DoH producers was to reinforce racism (in fact, I think it's very telling that the villain of the show was named after the President of the Confederacy) but it does have unfortunate implications.

When the show was pulled from TV Land, many made the argument of "They still show Hogan's Heroes, and they have the Nazi flag in every episode." The difference is that Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz, affable though they were, were always portrayed as the bad guys. Comical, ineffectual bad guys, but bad guys nonetheless.

So am I understanding you correctly that you believe that the Duke family - Bo, Luke, Daisy, etc - should have been portrayed as racists because the fact that they proudly drove a car decorated as a Confederate flag is a prima facie case that they were in fact all racists ... otherwise, the show should never have been allowed to be on the air (either in 1981 or today)? That the Duke family had to be portrayed as bad people (even if comically bad people) or no show, simply because they had an affinity for the Confederate flag?

 

[Matt_Black]

So am I understanding you correctly that you believe that the Duke family - Bo, Luke, Daisy, etc - should have been portrayed as racists because the fact that they proudly drove a car decorated as a Confederate flag is a prima facie case that they were in fact all racists ... otherwise, the show should never have been allowed to be on the air (either in 1981 or today)? That the Duke family had to be portrayed as bad people (even if comically bad people) or no show, simply because they had an affinity for the Confederate flag?

No, I didn't say that at all. The Dukes fought for everybody. The use of Confederate imagery will alienate many people, though. It's easy for me as a white man to care or not care about the flag because it was never raised by people actively trying to oppress me and infringe on my rights and liberties as an American citizen. There are many in this country who cannot say the same.

The Dukes of Hazzard was meant to be light-hearted escapist fun, and the iconography used in the show, unintentional though it was, is going to take many people out of it.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

The Dukes of Hazzard was meant to be light-hearted escapist fun, and the iconography used in the show, unintentional though it was, is going to take many people out of it.

Why do you assume the iconography was unintentional?

 

[Jimmy Thick]

I read this thread with Neil Diamond's America playing in headphones. Brought a tear to my eye...

Jimmy Thick- Red red wine stay close to me...

 

[Tigger1988]

I notice you didn't address my two questions:

1. Was it "recognized around the world as a symbol of white pride" in 1981 when the Dukes of Hazzard was the #2 most watched show on television?

2. How about 2005 when the Dukes of Hazzard movie made $111 million in ticket sales?

I did, actually. As I pointed out that this isn't a RECENT distinction.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

I did, actually. As I pointed out that this isn't a RECENT distinction.

So you're saying that (a) the second most popular television show in 1981 had a racist family as its lead good guys, and (b) people bought over $100 million dollars worth of tickets to see a movie in 2005 that featured two racist cousins as its protagonists?

 

[Matt_Black]

Why do you assume the iconography was unintentional?

Let me clarify- any racist connotations were, I believe, unintentional. As noted, Boss Hogg's given name was Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy. Furthermore, the sheriff of nearby Chickasaw County was African-American, and he was portrayed as both very competent (as opposed to Roscoe P. Coltrane) and also like and respected by the Dukes (ironic, considering he would try to catch them if they ever came into his county).

The iconography was used to symbolize rebellion against Boss Hogg's crooked system. However, that rebellion they're harkening back to was, as noted earlier in the thread, INCREDIBLY racist. The Confederacy was founded to continue slavery, and the flag was brought back as a reaction to the Civil Rights Movement. In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, apologists kicked into high gear, spinning propaganda and misinformation so that by the time of the Dukes of Hazzard, many were buying into the romanticized notion of a noble Confederacy.

 

[Tigger1988]

So you're saying that (a) the second most popular television show in 1981 had a racist family as its lead good guys, and (b) people bought over $100 million dollars worth of tickets to see a movie in 2005 that featured two racist cousins as its protagonists?

You asked if it was recognized as a symbol of white pride at those 2 periods of time. It was, regardless if you like it or not.

Your other questions are irrelevant as I said nothing about the content of either production.

 

[Matt_Black]

You asked if it was recognized as a symbol of white pride at those 2 periods of time. It was, regardless if you like it or not.

Quite right. The only difference is that back then, many people weren't questioning the "Southern Pride" or "States Rights" line, in part because of the backlash against progressive causes which came when Reagan ran for President and used the Southern Strategy. Now, minorities in this country are more active in voting and participating in general. For instance, in 1984 Walter Mondale got the same percentage of white voters that Barack Obama did in 2012. The former lost to Reagan so hard that it's not even funny, whereas the latter had a clear and decisive victory in the polls.

 

[G00fyDad]

Lets just fly this flag and offend everyone all at once and get it over with. Then we can get back to real issues in this country.

 

[Disvillain63]

No ever had a reason to remove the flags until the media told them to do so. Sheeple.

Sums up the whole discussion....

 

[Nubs70]

You mean like the US flag that flew over the states as the native Indians were slaughtered? Or the US flag that flew when the Japanese- Americans were placed in internment camps?

FYI
The lowest infant mortality rate in the world.during WWII was at the internment camps.

 

[RandomPrincess]

Have you ever heard the phrase "when you know better, you do better?" There are lots of things people used to do and say that are totally unacceptable today but during their time were no problem.
I'm not saying we need to go back and erase everything that is objectionable but we should do better moving forward.

 

[RandomPrincess]

FYI
The lowest infant mortality rate in the world.during WWII was at the internment camps.

Great so the U.S. Government did one good thing. Totally makes up for locking up all those people.

 

[Matt_Black]

Have you ever heard the phrase "when you know better, you do better?" There are lots of things people used to do and say that are totally unacceptable today but during their time were no problem.
I'm not saying we need to go back and erase everything that is objectionable but we should do better moving forward.

Quite right. You'll notice in Germany there are no monuments to or streets named after Nazi generals, not even guys like Rommel, who refused to hand over Jewish POWs to the SS. In the Southern United States, there are streets, parks, schools and more named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, a monstrous Confederate General who committed numerous atrocities and then went on to help found the Ku Klux Klan, the most infamous and long-lived terrorist organization on American soil.

 

[Nubs70]

Great so the U.S. Government did one good thing. Totally makes up for locking up all those people.

1. I find it frustrating that people directly or indirectly place the US internment camps anywhere near the same moral plane as the camps found in the European and Pacific theatres.
2. If one researches activities of Japanese enclaves around the world, one will see some of the methodology in the development of this policy.

 

[unkadug]

Lets just fly this flag and offend everyone all at once and get it over with. Then we can get back to real issues in this country.

Whoa....that should offend just about everyone somehow. I just think there must be SOMETHING missing.

 

[flynnibus]

I'm not saying we need to go back and erase everything that is objectionable but we should do better moving forward.

Which do you think is more achievable?
Option #1 ) Offend no one, think better as you say.. and avoid hurting anyone's feelings
Option #2 ) Improve Self-Responsibility and grow thicker skins so that we can all continue to function regardless of what gets thrown at us

Remember, for #1, the target is always moving and you can't argue what offends people or not...

And for #1 to work... everyone must comply. What happens when someone says 'no I don't want to play by your rules' -- do we crawl into the fetal position because we are so offended someone doesn't want to behave like us? Or maybe rally around and try to shout them down? What happens when that offender is bigger than you and intends to steamroll you? (like another country who won't play by your rules)

Which option is really a practical way forward?

A society that believes the answer to our problems is ensure everyone watches where they step all the time... or a society that can take what others dish out and still come out with their head up?