Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[juniorthomas]

I believe he's talking about the rumor (actually at this point more of a desperate, ridiculous proposal than a rumor) that the HSR plan that was mercifully killed by FL Governor Scott be revived in a rather more limited form - specifically to run just between WDW and MCO.

That is indeed the rumor I was referencing.

 

[tizzo]

That is indeed the rumor I was referencing.

I don't know what kind of coverage it's getting where you are, but here in FL there's been reporting on it a couple times a day. What they've been reporting is that the abbreviated route, proposed I believe by US Rep. John Mica, was a non-starter.

Most of the reporting over the past ~36 hours has been about how Scott and US Senator Bill Nelson, who happened to be at an event together yesterday (literally right around the corner from me in fact), spoke on the sidelines about the project. Nelson told the press that whatever Scott said lead him to believe that he was reconsidering his decision, and Scott has repeatedly denied that. Although Scott's characterization of his position has been such that it is not necessarily set in stone. He has not voiced opposition to the project itself, only to putting FL taxpayers on the hook for the open-ended and ongoing financial commitments that the line represents.

Essentially, Scott's concern (which I happen to share) is that while the federal government would pay for almost $3B of the ~$3.4B estimated cost to build the Tampa/Orlando leg, the state is on the hook for the other $400M, plus any cost overruns, plus any operating losses. Historical data on projects like this clearly shows that costs tend to be higher than estimated, and ridership tends to be lower. Given how much it's going to cost to ride this train, and the fact that it will only shave about 15 minutes of the 1 hour drive, it's hard to imagine anyone riding it, and therefore those operating losses could be both huge, and perpetual. (See "Amtrak").

My sense is that if anything is going to save this project, it's going to involve getting the private sector to shoulder more of the risk. And that's really how it should be. If there's enough profit potential - IE value - the private sector will figure that out, and will invest accordingly. If there isn't, then it shouldn't be built anyway.

 

[DVCOwner]

The money will be spent elsewhere if Florida doesn't take it... so we of course will probably let it go while letting other states get jobs.

It's like the "let me pay for your meal", "no, keep your money", "no I insist"- except in this situation the person paying for our meal genuinely wants us to flourish and have a great night, and the person not accepting the money will not pay and stare at his empty plates trying to prove a point until the restaurant kicks him out because somehow that will get more accomplished than just accepting the money.

No it is more like let me pay for your meal all you have to do is pay a lot of money every year to wash the dishes that came with the free meal. The "free" money from the Feds is only to cover part of the construction. The State of Florida would have to pay the part of the construction and run this rail every year at a cost to the Florida Taxpayer of millions of dollars. That is the problem with this.

 

[flavious27]

I can't think of any reason for Orlando residents to contribute a dime to this proposal. None of them would benefit from it.

Much less buses and traffic in general on I-4. Living in northern delaware, any reduction in bus traffic for us is very welcomed.

 

[DVCJohn]

Hello everyone. I am new to this board but I have been viewing for some time.
I just wanted to add my two cents on the High Speed Rail Project. IMO the only way this makes any sense is to run it from Tampa International Airport to Orlando International Airport. This way it gives travelers visiting central Florida a choice of airports. If visiting WDW the visitor does not need to rent a car to get from TPA and gets additional traffic off of I-4. Also who wants to go to Ybor City to catch a train. I for one having visited west central Florida many times I know that is the last place in Tampa I would put the station.
Good Day all.

 

[flavious27]

And honestly, its the only part of the entire plan that mattered. Disney has always been interested in a quicker route to the resorts from the airport. Having a vacation package that has people on Disney property from start to finish is pretty attractive to Parks.

true and it would be faster than taking a bus.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Much less buses and traffic in general on I-4. Living in northern delaware, any reduction in bus traffic for us is very welcomed.

I just can't see that being enough to get voters to pay for something they'd never personally use.

Of course, I imagine traffic in Delaware is considerably worse than in Orlando, with your proximity to D.C. and Philly.

 

[flavious27]

I just can't see that being enough to get voters to pay for something they'd never personally use.

Of course, I imagine traffic in Delaware is considerably worse than in Orlando, with your proximity to D.C. and Philly.

Well disney just need mears to drive worse, the accident the other day could show the need for less tour buses.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well they could have an express train that would travel between the airport and wdw. Also, it would the first phase to connect to other hd rail on the east coast.

Except that the proposed Tampa-Orlando-Miami high speed rail system would not connect to any other high speed rail lines except a "Other Passenger Rail Route" between Orlando and Jacksonville. The idea that Florida was the start of a national system is a false pretense that ignores the plans.

 

[fillerup]

Disney has always been interested in a quicker route to the resorts from the airport. Having a vacation package that has people on Disney property from start to finish is pretty attractive to Parks.

I don't know why Disney would necessarily be interested in a quicker route. As long as people get to the World is the bottom line.

Certainly they want people on property from start to finish, but they already have that with the wildly successful DME. And they've consistently said they won't discontinue DME - that they only consider rail an alternative.

Besides, with the station configuration at OIA, and the need to load and unload baggage and passengers a second time might mean that Mears' buses might very well wind up being faster than a train.

 

[flavious27]

Except that the proposed Tampa-Orlando-Miami high speed rail system would not connect to any other high speed rail lines except a "Other Passenger Rail Route" between Orlando and Jacksonville. The idea that Florida was the start of a national system is a false pretense that ignores the plans.

Does anyone think that this HSR would be an example for other projects?

 

[flavious27]

I don't know why Disney would necessarily be interested in a quicker route. As long as people get to the World is the bottom line.

Certainly they want people on property from start to finish, but they already have that with the wildly successful DME. And they've consistently said they won't discontinue DME - that they only consider rail an alternative.

Besides, with the station configuration at OIA, and the need to load and unload baggage and passengers a second time might mean that Mears' buses might very well wind up being faster than a train.

It would make sense that guests get checked in at OIA and their baggage gets sent to their rooms while they are away in the parks.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It would make sense that guests get checked in at OIA and their baggage gets sent to their rooms while they are away in the parks.

Why would Disney offer this more expensive service in conjunction with Magical Express?

 

[WDW1974]

No it is more like let me pay for your meal all you have to do is pay a lot of money every year to wash the dishes that came with the free meal. The "free" money from the Feds is only to cover part of the construction. The State of Florida would have to pay the part of the construction and run this rail every year at a cost to the Florida Taxpayer of millions of dollars. That is the problem with this.

No, the problem is frankly with the American addiction to oil and our inability to think with long term vision (sounds like TWDC the more you think about it). All we can see is either spending billions on rail when we don't have a network and have lots of urban sprawl. We can't see the big picture or the reality of things like $5 (or more a gallon gas). We can't see the big picture that Americans are going to have to cut back on driving.

We waste billions of tax dollars annually on all sorts of things that don't do a damn thing to improve the quality of life of people in the USA ... it would be nice to 'waste' it on actually improving our country and not attempting to make it third world.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No, the problem is frankly with the American addiction to oil and our inability to think with long term vision (sounds like TWDC the more you think about it). All we can see is either spending billions on rail when we don't have a network and have lots of urban sprawl. We can't see the big picture or the reality of things like $5 (or more a gallon gas). We can't see the big picture that Americans are going to have to cut back on driving.

We waste billions of tax dollars annually on all sorts of things that don't do a damn thing to improve the quality of life of people in the USA ... it would be nice to 'waste' it on actually improving our country and not attempting to make it third world.

Nothing about this route worked towards the viability of high speed rail. The population is not there. The traffic is not there. The distance is not there. If you are so concerned about waste then you would not support a rail system for its "cool" factor. You do not fight oil dependence with a train that is not in a viable alternative.

 

[WDW1974]

Nothing about this route worked towards the viability of high speed rail. The population is not there. The traffic is not there. The distance is not there. If you are so concerned about waste then you would not support a rail system for its "cool" factor. You do not fight oil dependence with a train that is not in a viable alternative.

I disagree. And I am not in favor of HSR because of any cool factor.

The route wouldn't be my choice except as a first step in building ... and everything was arranged so they could have started practically immediately.

But, in the end, I'm not sure it matters. It seems like this country has the car in reverse and the foot on the gas pedal ... no one seems to think about what is happening ... we are at a crucial crossroads (talking big picture here, not the small rail line in FLA) where we find out whether we'll continue to be the world leader or whether we'll be a nation in decline and perhaps that's what we should be ... the UK wound up just fine after not being top dog. If we need to drop a few pegs to improve, then I guess it's meant to be.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I disagree. And I am not in favor of HSR because of any cool factor.

The route wouldn't be my choice except as a first step in building ... and everything was arranged so they could have started practically immediately.

A first step towards what, the eventual Orlando-Miami line? There were no plans to connect the Florida High Speed Line (Tampa-Orlando-Miami) to a national system. The funds are federal, but the planning coordination and implementation is not. If you are going to start you start someplace that is viable, not a potential side route that currently has very little demand.

 

[WDW1974]

A first step towards what, the eventual Orlando-Miami line? There were no plans to connect the Florida High Speed Line (Tampa-Orlando-Miami) to a national system. The funds are federal, but the planning coordination and implementation is not. If you are going to start you start someplace that is viable, not a potential side route that currently has very little demand.

A national system would have been the way to go, naturally. And it would have made sense. This is akin to building I-4 as one of the first Interstate highways back in the 50s. I don't at all disagree with your point there.

But no way does the USA have the vision in the 21st century to do a rail version of the Interstate system. We'll use the money excuse because we do have trillions in debt (almost entirely rung up by the last and current administrations) ... but funny how spending billions and trillions is perfectly acceptable when we are starting wars and feeding giant military contractors, but talk about spending on anything that improves life and our nation (be it healthcare, education, transportation, infrastructure) and all the crazies on the right are talking about bankrupting the nation.

What has bankrupted the nation is wars and Wall Street. Very, very simple.

 

[lazyboy97o]

A national system would have been the way to go, naturally. And it would have made sense. This is akin to building I-4 as one of the first Interstate highways back in the 50s. I don't at all disagree with your point there.

But no way does the USA have the vision in the 21st century to do a rail version of the Interstate system. We'll use the money excuse because we do have trillions in debt (almost entirely rung up by the last and current administrations) ... but funny how spending billions and trillions is perfectly acceptable when we are starting wars and feeding giant military contractors, but talk about spending on anything that improves life and our nation (be it healthcare, education, transportation, infrastructure) and all the crazies on the right are talking about bankrupting the nation.

What has bankrupted the nation is wars and Wall Street. Very, very simple.

None of which actually gives a real reason as why a rail link between Tampa and Orlando should be a high speed route.

 

[flavious27]

Why would Disney offer this more expensive service in conjunction with Magical Express?

This service should have been offered with dme, it makes going to wdw more seamless.