Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

[devoy1701]

I never thought I would be opposing a rail project, but despite the importance and potential of passenger rail of all types, this project was ill-conceived and very much the wrong project in the wrong place.

The problem with this project is not that it shouldn't be built - because the central Florida region very badly needs greater passenger rail development - but that it absolutely should not be built as currently proposed as a "high-speed" railroad. HSR for the 21 miles from the airport to WDW is ludicrous. A modern light-rail system could be implemented for a fraction of the cost and is what Orlando really needs. It could even be tied into a potential Tampa light-rail network, again at far lower cost and greater utility.

If you want to do a higher-speed (say, 110 mph) Orlando to Tampa passenger railroad, then incrementally improve the existing CSX line to permit faster and more frequent trains (partially Sun Rail territory anyway), with ongoing improvements when ridership builds or if demand warrants. There is no way the currently proposed project would have met its ridership goals, and when it was therefore branded a failure (it wouldn't be profitable either - no passenger railway exists without an operating subsidy) it would have set back passenger rail development across the nation by decades.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way it made sense was directly from somewhere central in Orlando (probably nowhere near WDW unfortunately) to somewhere central in Tampa. And then only after suitable mass transit was in place in both locations. As close together as they are, having any stops between Orlando and Tampa made no sense, and is probably the main reason why the proposed system wasn't going to average higher than conventional speeds. The extra stops on the Orlando side were necessary, however, because if you're dropped off of the train in Downtown Orlando you have no way to get anywhere else unless you rent a car - at which point you've incurred more cost than you would have just driving from Tampa, not even including the train fare. And without even any savings of time - the 10 minutes or so shaved off the travel time using the train vs. driving is more than consumed by embarkation, debarkation, picking up your rental car, dropping it off, etc.

Very true. The HSR line that was planned is great at getting you from point A to point B, but the fact is that Point A is 20-30 miles away from you to begin with, and Point B end up not being exactly where you want to go either. Without Metro lines in Tampa and Orlando to spur off of this HSR route, it just doesn't make sense for convenience factor or individual cost factor. The only way I see this being a benefit is if you can get a cheaper rate flying into or out of Orlando or Tampa and the added cost of the train fare still make it worth while to go to the other airport.

I am not so sure why everyone doesn't think that rail can compete with car travel? Here in Germany, trains are especially popular with business travellers for short distances. During the week you will often find the first class coaches more crowded than second class. The advantage for business travellers? Quite a lot of space around you, in most cases, a real table, where you can put down your laptop comfortably with an electric outlet at every seat. Instead of spending your travel time driving and thus being unproductive, you can actually work on the train. Or have a nap and arrive refreshed.

Besides the fact that with the exception of the Northeastern United States and some other Urban areas within our country the population is not dense enough. I think it also has to do with our more individualistic culture and the ability to go where you want to go when you want to go without being on someone elses schedule or being inconvenieced by other people around you. That's my take anyway. I've been to NY many times and have relied on the LIRR and the subway system to get me from Long Island and back, along with also taking the New Jersey Transit and Philly's SEPTA system to get me from NY to Philly and I love it. But down here in FL or the rest of the Southeast I just can't see it being a way to get around.

 

[juniorthomas]

this thread title makes me crack up...:lol:

As soon as OP wrote definite, the project was jinxed.

 

[Bolna]

How do those typical businessmen travel to/from the stations at each end? For those businessmen, do they have cars? If so, how long would it have taken to have travelled the same by car?

I'm thinking that its much quicker to do the train "thing" because there is efficient transport to and from the stations (yes walking is considered efficient in this case), and it's faster than taking the car. Maybe.

I think that there really isn't one typical scenario. Of course efficient public transport or the possibility of walking might be a factor. But from my experiences many would not bother with a tram, an underground train or a bus in a city they don't know, but instead just take a taxi.

Also, I know quite a few people who would drive to the railway station with their own car. And then the railway stations where the long distance trains stop have rental car companies, so if you have to get to a smaller town in the vicinity, many just rent a car. There is also the concept of "car sharing". There is one scheme which cooperates with the German Railway and has cars at the main stations. Once you have an account you can just jump into a reserved car. It opens with your key card, the rental fee is a fixed fee for time and for distance and you don't have to pay extra for gas (you can get gas for the car with an account card at major gas stations for free). The advantage over a usual rental is that you can get the car for two hours or so if that's all you need.

 

[Bolna]

Besides the fact that with the exception of the Northeastern United States and some other Urban areas within our country the population is not dense enough. I think it also has to do with our more individualistic culture and the ability to go where you want to go when you want to go without being on someone elses schedule or being inconvenieced by other people around you. That's my take anyway. I've been to NY many times and have relied on the LIRR and the subway system to get me from Long Island and back, along with also taking the New Jersey Transit and Philly's SEPTA system to get me from NY to Philly and I love it. But down here in FL or the rest of the Southeast I just can't see it being a way to get around.

I am not trying to say that the Orlando Tampa route would have made a lot of sense, I have been to both cities, but I know way too little about all kind of issues to be arguing for one side or the other. I am just trying to give some perspective from someone who has lived all her life in a country where trains still are one of the main methods of transportation. I actually don't onw a car, but I have a railway card which gets me 50% off on any railway ticket!

I do understand that the USA is a country with an awful lot of space and hence distances. It is one of the first things that one notices coming from Europe: How space isn't a valuable commodity, but something that is taken for granted (with a few exceptions of cours). But I think the argument that railways work in Europe because it has dense city centers and lots of public transport (I am aware that this isn't only your point, but it has come up so often in this thread), which the US lacks, kind of can be also turned around. It is like the question with the chicken and the egg...

When railways started here in Germany (and btw, my office looks out on the road where the first railway ever in Germany ran along on, it is now an underground train) most railway stations were not built in the city centers but rather more or less far out. And then the cities grew around these stations. And they still do if new space becomes available. For example in Munich the old railroad yard areal next to the station has recently been developed since the freight train terminal was moved to a new location outside the city. It is filled with offices and also appartments because it is an attractive location close to the main station.

I don't want to sound as if I think that Germany has found the solution for all transportation questions for the future! And I know that this is taking the thread off topic in a strict sense. But I got the feeling that there are a few people here interested in trains and I hope I could add some new perspective to the topic. :wave:

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think that there really isn't one typical scenario. Of course efficient public transport or the possibility of walking might be a factor. But from my experiences many would not bother with a tram, an underground train or a bus in a city they don't know, but instead just take a taxi.

Also, I know quite a few people who would drive to the railway station with their own car. And then the railway stations where the long distance trains stop have rental car companies, so if you have to get to a smaller town in the vicinity, many just rent a car. There is also the concept of "car sharing". There is one scheme which cooperates with the German Railway and has cars at the main stations. Once you have an account you can just jump into a reserved car. It opens with your key card, the rental fee is a fixed fee for time and for distance and you don't have to pay extra for gas (you can get gas for the car with an account card at major gas stations for free). The advantage over a usual rental is that you can get the car for two hours or so if that's all you need.

But how often do people drive out their way to the train station, hop on a train that takes just as long to drive, and then get a rental car or taxi? With how spread out the Tampa and Orlando areas are, it would be a lot more convenient to just drive than go through the extra effort, time and expense to take a train that is technically capable of doing so much more than it is ever asked to do. High speed rail is something that is added onto already congested travel corridors, and right now Tampa-Orlando is just not there and "building for the future" only gives the future outdated equipment that has built a negative reputation.

 

[tizzo]

But I think the argument that railways work in Europe because it has dense city centers and lots of public transport (I am aware that this isn't only your point, but it has come up so often in this thread), which the US lacks, kind of can be also turned around. It is like the question with the chicken and the egg...

When railways started here in Germany (and btw, my office looks out on the road where the first railway ever in Germany ran along on, it is now an underground train) most railway stations were not built in the city centers but rather more or less far out. And then the cities grew around these stations.

I'm sure that's quite true. But then you're suggesting that we build a rail system that doesn't fit our existing lifestyle in the hopes that a more urban, less desirable lifestyle will grow up around it, solving the "problem" of insufficient population density to support the system.

To me, and I think to most people (at least most Americans), that sounds a little bit like advocating a strict regimen of smoking and inactivity to solve the "problem" of being able to breathe easily.

Put another way, where you say the US (or more specifically, Orlando/Tampa) "lacks" sufficiently dense population centers to justify HSR, I would say that we are, happily, free of them.

 

[Mammymouse]

I can't see the HSR train generating enough money to offset the enormous cost to build it and then operate and maintain it. The people who work in Tampa live in (and near) Tampa. The people who work in Orlando live in Orlando. The two cities are very different. Visitors as well - if they are going to Orlando for vacation most likely they aren't going to Tampa, and vice versa. They fly into and out of the respective international airports at that city they are visiting. And of the small amount who may visit both cities, they probably will find it cheaper and more convenient to have a car for their varied visits. Just my opinion.

 

[juniorthomas]

I can't see the HSR train generating enough money to offset the enormous cost to build it and then operate and maintain it. The people who work in Tampa live in (and near) Tampa. The people who work in Orlando live in Orlando. The two cities are very different. Visitors as well - if they are going to Orlando for vacation most likely they aren't going to Tampa, and vice versa. They fly into and out of the respective international airports at that city they are visiting. And of the small amount who may visit both cities, they probably will find it cheaper and more convenient to have a car for their varied visits. Just my opinion.

Seriously. Nobody lives in Orlando and works in Tampa, and vice versa. The line would basically only serve to bring more people into Orlando for their themeparks, etc. Such a huge expense for something that arguably would benefit few Floridians explains why it was cut.

 

[fillerup]

O'Sentinel - 2/25:

LaHood gives Florida another week for high-speed rail


The high-speed train in Florida that Gov. Rick Scott has twice derailed received another one-week reprieve today from the federal government.

"I have decided to give Gov. Scott additional time to review the agreement crafted by local officials from Orlando, Tampa, Lakeland and Miami, and to consult with his staff at the state Department of Transportation," U.S. Transportation Ray LaHood said in a statement released this afternoon.

LaHood added that Scott "has committed to making a final decision by the end of next week. I feel we owe it to the people of Florida, who have been working to bring high speed rail to their state for the last 20 years, to go the extra mile."

Prior to this afternoon's surprise announcement, high-speed rail appeared dead in Florida.


Dan Tracy - Orlando Sentinel

 

[orky8]

O'Sentinel - 2/25:

LaHood gives Florida another week for high-speed rail

I'm sorry, this whole thing is just like a drug-dealer relationship with a person trying to get clean. The federal government with its crack-like federal dollars. Some States wanting just one more hit, and then I'll be fiscally conservative, I swears. Others like CA can't imagine life drug-free, and wouldn't want to try. Some like Florida are adamantly trying to get off the juice, but the dealer doesn't want to lose one of its junkies and is trying really hard to keep it hooked (come on Florida, you know you miss it. just one hit can't hurt).

It'd be really funny if it wasn't so tragic. And heaven forbid anyone ever asks where "crack" comes from.

I apologize in advance if this is too political for the forums. I don't mean it that way.

 

[CDavid]

I'm sorry, this whole thing is just like a drug-dealer relationship with a person trying to get clean. The federal government with its crack-like federal dollars. Some States wanting just one more hit, and then I'll be fiscally conservative, I swears. Others like CA can't imagine life drug-free, and wouldn't want to try. Some like Florida are adamantly trying to get off the juice, but the dealer doesn't want to lose one of its junkies and is trying really hard to keep it hooked (come on Florida, you know you miss it. just one hit can't hurt).

It'd be really funny if it wasn't so tragic. And heaven forbid anyone ever asks where "crack" comes from.

I apologize in advance if this is too political for the forums. I don't mean it that way.

Just because this particular project was ill-conceived in no way diminishes the very real, legitimate need for expanded passenger rail service of all types in Florida. High-speed rail should ultimately be a part of this mix, though it is not the most pressing need initially. What Florida and the nation really need is expanded and incrementally improved "conventional" passenger rail on freight shared tracks. This could have been implemented between Orlando and Tampa for a fraction of the cost of the proposed HSR, and would have cost less to operate (meaning a smaller annual operating subsidy) while potentially coming within a few minutes of the running times for the definitive HSR system.

A light-rail system would have a much better solution (HSR on a 21 mile route is ludicrous) for the Orlando airport to WDW connection, and light-rail is something that the Orlando metropolitan area will really need anyway in the coming decades.

Passenger rail is going to be very important in the nations transportation future, and it is important we get it right; A mistaken, failed project here will only serve to make it more difficult to get future, more worthwhile and necessary projects approved.

 

[askmike1]

Just my 2 cents.... The money for this project has already been set aside for high-speed rail. This money will be spent on high-speed rail, whether Scott accepts it or not. Now that money could be going to the state of Florida, but if Scott still rejects it, it won't. Those 20,000 direct jobs could be going to Floridians, but if Scott rejects it, those job's will go to other states (and that number doesn't include jobs that would be made indirectly as a result of the new rail.

Fact is that private companies have already agreed to put up the money the state would need to put up, so this is essentially a free project for Florida that could only booster tourism, create jobs and help unclog at least a part of the road system. But I guess we don't need High-Speed Rail do we? Just like in the 50's we didn't need the Interstate Highway system either.

Such a shame if Florida doesn't get these jobs and this transportation plussing.

 

[jtizzle1023]

From what I have heard they canceled all plans for the train

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm sorry, this whole thing is just like a drug-dealer relationship with a person trying to get clean. The federal government with its crack-like federal dollars. Some States wanting just one more hit, and then I'll be fiscally conservative, I swears. Others like CA can't imagine life drug-free, and wouldn't want to try. Some like Florida are adamantly trying to get off the juice, but the dealer doesn't want to lose one of its junkies and is trying really hard to keep it hooked (come on Florida, you know you miss it. just one hit can't hurt).

It'd be really funny if it wasn't so tragic. And heaven forbid anyone ever asks where "crack" comes from.

I apologize in advance if this is too political for the forums. I don't mean it that way.

It really does seem to be the Robert Moses way of building. New York state ended up on the hook for huge overruns on his highway projects because he knew that once construction started, nobody would dare shut it down.

Just because this particular project was ill-conceived in no way diminishes the very real, legitimate need for expanded passenger rail service of all types in Florida. High-speed rail should ultimately be a part of this mix, though it is not the most pressing need initially. What Florida and the nation really need is expanded and incrementally improved "conventional" passenger rail on freight shared tracks. This could have been implemented between Orlando and Tampa for a fraction of the cost of the proposed HSR, and would have cost less to operate (meaning a smaller annual operating subsidy) while potentially coming within a few minutes of the running times for the definitive HSR system.

I am not too sure about sharing the track with freight. That is often considered a blight and I doubt its the sort of thing Disney would want plowing through its property. Amtrak already provides twice daily $10 each way rail service between Tampa and Orlando on the CSX tracks. Any passenger rail in Florida does need to consider the tourists and that includes punctuality, which is not going to be maintained sitting on a siding waiting for freight to pass. At most I think the state should retain ownership of the tracks and lease capacity for some freight use on short term contracts so that the right of way can be moved to dedicated passenger service if/when the time comes while generating additional revenue in the interim.

A light-rail system would have a much better solution (HSR on a 21 mile route is ludicrous) for the Orlando airport to WDW connection, and light-rail is something that the Orlando metropolitan area will really need anyway in the coming decades.

I would think some of the beefier light rail systems, provided with enough sitting room, could even make the trip down to Tampa in a reasonable timeframe.

Do you or anybody else know how much room is in the existing medians? Looking online it seems that part of what makes this project so cheap is that for several miles at a time two lines of track can be placed right into the median of I-4 with little to no moving of the highway itself. I wonder if there is enough room for additional tracks so that, in the future two could be converted to dedicated high speed service and two more could continue to offer conventional passenger and/or freight service.

Passenger rail is going to be very important in the nations transportation future, and it is important we get it right; A mistaken, failed project here will only serve to make it more difficult to get future, more worthwhile and necessary projects approved.

First we have to get over our persistent problem of insisting on having passenger rail where it is not viable.

Just my 2 cents.... The money for this project has already been set aside for high-speed rail. This money will be spent on high-speed rail, whether Scott accepts it or not. Now that money could be going to the state of Florida, but if Scott still rejects it, it won't. Those 20,000 direct jobs could be going to Floridians, but if Scott rejects it, those job's will go to other states (and that number doesn't include jobs that would be made indirectly as a result of the new rail.

Since you pretty much copy and pasted I am going to do the same incase anybody has anything to say about my response.

If the jobs are not actually doing anything but supporting a railroad that is not being used then they are an artificial creation that is simply unsustainable.

Fact is that private companies have already agreed to put up the money the state would need to put up, so this is essentially a free project for Florida that could only booster tourism, create jobs and help unclog at least a part of the road system. But I guess we don't need High-Speed Rail do we? Just like in the 50's we didn't need the Interstate Highway system either.

Such a shame if Florida doesn't get these jobs and this transportation plussing.

If this project was really going to boost tourism and unclog roads then it would not be a high speed rail project, it would be an I-4 corridor project aimed at increasing the corridor's capacity through various means. That this is an all-or-nothing high speed rail project just helps ot show how the corridor's capacity is not that strained. Nowhere else in the world, including the best performing Tokyo-Osaka and Paris-Lyons lines, was high speed rail implemented before conventional rail and air travel, but only after conventional rail, highway and air routes were all strained.

I'll post this here too, just incase it hs not been or has been lost in the shuffle.
High Speed Rail: The Fast Track to Economic Development? - World Bank

 

[JEANYLASER]

I'm angry! This is not fair I support the High Speed rail from Tampa to Orlando and Miami It will be a chance to have more jobs to this project! now Rick Scott is going to ruin this project and I wanted to see the project through!

 

[Mammymouse]

Just my 2 cents.... The money for this project has already been set aside for high-speed rail. This money will be spent on high-speed rail, whether Scott accepts it or not. Now that money could be going to the state of Florida, but if Scott still rejects it, it won't. Those 20,000 direct jobs could be going to Floridians, but if Scott rejects it, those job's will go to other states (and that number doesn't include jobs that would be made indirectly as a result of the new rail.

Fact is that private companies have already agreed to put up the money the state would need to put up, so this is essentially a free project for Florida that could only booster tourism, create jobs and help unclog at least a part of the road system. But I guess we don't need High-Speed Rail do we? Just like in the 50's we didn't need the Interstate Highway system either.

Such a shame if Florida doesn't get these jobs and this transportation plussing.

I'm angry! This is not fair I support the High Speed rail from Tampa to Orlando and Miami It will be a chance to have more jobs to this project! now Rick Scott is going to ruin this project and I wanted to see the project through!

I disagree and support Gov. Scott's decision. And furthermore the entire budgeted amount for HSR is going to get chopped out of the Federal budget anyway, so no one anywhere will be getting it.

 

[JEANYLASER]

very interesting info!

 

[JungleTrekFan]

I disagree and support Gov. Scott's decision. And furthermore the entire budgeted amount for HSR is going to get chopped out of the Federal budget anyway, so no one anywhere will be getting it.

They cant cut spending for something thats already been spent. The money for the the high speed rail projects were all apart of last years budget, and can not be cut even if they wanted to.

 

[GoofyFan1]

I'm sorry, this whole thing is just like a drug-dealer relationship with a person trying to get clean. The federal government with its crack-like federal dollars. Some States wanting just one more hit, and then I'll be fiscally conservative, I swears. Others like CA can't imagine life drug-free, and wouldn't want to try. Some like Florida are adamantly trying to get off the juice, but the dealer doesn't want to lose one of its junkies and is trying really hard to keep it hooked (come on Florida, you know you miss it. just one hit can't hurt).

It'd be really funny if it wasn't so tragic. And heaven forbid anyone ever asks where "crack" comes from.

I apologize in advance if this is too political for the forums. I don't mean it that way.

:drevil::sohappy::sohappy::sohappy:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

They cant cut spending for something thats already been spent. The money for the the high speed rail projects were all apart of last years budget, and can not be cut even if they wanted to.

I read yesterday that the next continuing resolution to keep the federal government funded is likely to include cuts obtained by rescinding earmarked stimulus funds that were never distributed or spent. That *might* include these high speed rail dollars that have been stuck in limbo, but I can't swear to it.