Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

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rsoxguy

Well-Known Member
I don't necessarily know what the true majority thinks one way or the other..

From some of the people Ive talked to its all just political.. One party doesn't want the other one to gain anything by doing this or they don't want the oil companies to lose business.

You Know, that's the funny thing about it for me. I'm not looking at it from the political end. I personally wouldn't have used it because I don't live mid-state, but many of the people that I know wouldn't use it if it were here. I know several folks in Miami, and certainly many people on the East coast, and few seem to like the use of things such as Metrorail and Tri-rail. I really don't care about the politics involved, but I still feel that Floridians prefer the independence of their cars.
 

juniorthomas

Well-Known Member
Thank you for clearing up the whole buses/trains confusion for me. I realize the difference, but the issue is public transportation. The State is so vast that many Floridians seem to prefer the independence of their cars. Maybe I'm wrong, but I am entitled to the observation.

I argued before that I was entitled to my opinion too. For some reason, these boards didn't share that opinion either.
 

_Scar

Active Member
The money will be spent elsewhere if Florida doesn't take it... so we of course will probably let it go while letting other states get jobs.

It's like the "let me pay for your meal", "no, keep your money", "no I insist"- except in this situation the person paying for our meal genuinely wants us to flourish and have a great night, and the person not accepting the money will not pay and stare at his empty plates trying to prove a point until the restaurant kicks him out because somehow that will get more accomplished than just accepting the money.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
You Know, that's the funny thing about it for me. I'm not looking at it from the political end. I personally wouldn't have used it because I don't live mid-state, but many of the people that I know wouldn't use it if it were here. I know several folks in Miami, and certainly many people on the East coast, and few seem to like the use of things such as Metrorail and Tri-rail. I really don't care about the politics involved, but I still feel that Floridians prefer the independence of their cars.
Again, no place in Florida today is conducive to anything besides cars. The car is preferred because it is the easiest and most convenient means of getting around in the state. It is one of the reasons why the high speed rail project made so little sense, that at each end you needed a car and the train saved no time or cost over just bringing your car with you. It is not a condition unique to Florida, but to all places where development is spread.
 

rsoxguy

Well-Known Member
Floridians love their cars. Buses in my town run daily with one to five passengers within. I think that this idea would have sold better in another State.

Again, no place in Florida today is conducive to anything besides cars. The car is preferred because it is the easiest and most convenient means of getting around in the state. It is one of the reasons why the high speed rail project made so little sense, that at each end you needed a car and the train saved no time or cost over just bringing your car with you. It is not a condition unique to Florida, but to all places where development is spread.

I completely agree with what you are saying, and so I don't understand our little debate. My point is simply that, in my opinion, many Floridians do not use the public transportation currently available to them, and would not use public transportion were it expanded within the State. I agree with all that you say in the post quoted above.
Floridians seem to love the convenience and independence of their cars. It's a mindset similar to the way in which everyone dresses casual, whether at a five-star restaurant or a funeral. Also, plumbers and repairmen are too casual to show up. :)
 

Mammymouse

Well-Known Member
The money will be spent elsewhere if Florida doesn't take it... so we of course will probably let it go while letting other states get jobs.

It's like the "let me pay for your meal", "no, keep your money", "no I insist"- except in this situation the person paying for our meal genuinely wants us to flourish and have a great night, and the person not accepting the money will not pay and stare at his empty plates trying to prove a point until the restaurant kicks him out because somehow that will get more accomplished than just accepting the money.

I wouldn't be so sure that the project will go somewhere else. The billions that have been set aside previously and the billions that are a proposed "downpayment" to go toward the implementation may end up getting thrown out of the Federal budget. I personally think that, while the train is a cool thing to look at and ride on, this is a bad project because the cost is out of sight and Florida and other states will end up subsidizing it after the startup money runs out from the Feds. Simply put we just can't afford it. The fact is our Country is broke, as well as the local governments, so I think this should be considered a non-essential project and should be scrapped and put in the pipe dream folder. Just my 2 cents.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, mass transit systems only work well in compact, densely populated urban areas like those in the Northeast, or in countries like Japan. I grew up in South Philly, and the mass transit was efficient because the city is deigned like a gigantic grid, making the system simple and user friendly. You can get to any point in the city by taking one north/south bus and then transferring to one east/west bus. Also, the city is so compact that once you got off the bus you could easily walk to your destination. However, while the mass transit system in Philly may have been efficient, you spent your life living like a sardine in a dirty, claustrophobia inducing, congested maze of asphalt and concrete with very little that is green; and I would certainly not describe it as being “healthy”. Many people do not want to live like that; which is precisely why I moved to Florida, and why for decades there has been a mass exodus from the inner cities to the suburbs, as well as from the rustbelt to the sunbelt as a whole. The problem is as population density decreases and things become more spread out and less designed like a grid (which is more desirable to many), mass transit become nearly impossible to implement efficiently as it becomes increasingly non linear, confusing, and complicated. (This is particularly unfortunate for our elderly population who would benefit most from mass transit). So, basically, to escape the horrors of the city, you are condemned to the automobile as the only efficient means of transportation and, conversely, to have an efficient mass transit system you are condemned to living in an asphalt jungle. Like most things, it is a two edged sword.

I wouldn't call philly just concrete and asphalt, there is a lot of parks and parkland in the city.

Phila_parks.png


As for the exodus from the inner city, it has more to do with racial tensions and crime the people wanting an estate in the country.
 

toolsnspools

Well-Known Member
Yes, Auto-Train passengers do so every day. The single existing route should be expanded and gradually improved to produce higher speeds (and thus faster running time) and greater capacity, but that costs money which Congress has never made available (they only relunctantly funded replacements for fifty year old rail cars). As discussed in this thread, billions are being made available (mostly wasted) to conduct studies of expensive "high-speed" rail systems which will never be built, but nothing to fund the relatively modest cost for expanded and improved conventional rail (which is the greater need across most of the nation).

So trains would be better if congress gives us enough money to make them economical? Where does congress get the money? I recently took the downeaster from NH to Boston. (about 50 miles) For 3 of us, the trip cost $90 on the train. Good thing my other 2 kids stayed at home. When we made it to North Station, we needed to buy tickets for the T. Another $12 spent. Both of those systems are already subsidized by Uncle Sam, so all of you helped pay for the trip too. (Thanks BTW). So for 3 of us to travel 100 miles round trip, it cost somewhere between $100 and $125. Had I driven my van, we would have had room for another 5 passengers and the trip would have cost less that $30 in gas. Throw in $20 for parking and is it still less that half the cost of the train.

I don't hate trains. I actually like them. They just don't work in a society where people are spread out. Telling me that the best answer is for all
Americans to move to the city and live in flats like they do in Japan is not the right answer. A solution that improves the efficiency and maintains the freedom of a POV is the only way to be successful.

BTW - Thanks for the fun, open debate. This has been a rather enjoyable thread to both read and post to.
 

juniorthomas

Well-Known Member
I completely agree with what you are saying, and so I don't understand our little debate. My point is simply that, in my opinion, many Floridians do not use the public transportation currently available to them, and would not use public transportion were it expanded within the State. I agree with all that you say in the post quoted above.
Floridians seem to love the convenience and independence of their cars. It's a mindset similar to the way in which everyone dresses casual, whether at a five-star restaurant or a funeral. Also, plumbers and repairmen are too casual to show up. :)

Honestly, I think the entire system was thought out to benefit Disney guests coming from MCO. The rest of the line would have been built simply to make additional jobs.
 

juniorthomas

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't call philly just concrete and asphalt, there is a lot of parks and parkland in the city.

Phila_parks.png


As for the exodus from the inner city, it has more to do with racial tensions and crime the people wanting an estate in the country.

I lived in and work in Philadelphia. It basically is just concrete and asphalt. Fairmount isn't close enough, and those other parks are all in the extended areas of Philadelphia. Center City is, essentially, concrete.
 

UncleScrooge

New Member
I lived in and work in Philadelphia. It basically is just concrete and asphalt. Fairmount isn't close enough, and those other parks are all in the extended areas of Philadelphia. Center City is, essentially, concrete.


Thank you! Only people who have lived it can truly understand. In what part of the city did you live?
 

UncleScrooge

New Member
As for the exodus from the inner city, it has more to do with racial tensions and crime the people wanting an estate in the country.

Of course crime is a contributing factor to people leaving the cities. Unfortunately, with increased population densities comes increased crime- it’s not exactly a selling feature. However, one cannot discount other valid contributing factors as well; such as the overall living conditions. The people who left Philly for South Jersey or other areas were not looking for “estates in the country”; just a small yard for their kids to play in- with grass. Also, the population density in the suburbs of South Jersey is still relatively high (it’s just not a concrete grid); and as a consequence has a relatively high crime rate- just not as high as the inner city.
 

juniorthomas

Well-Known Member
Thank you! Only people who have lived it can truly understand. In what part of the city did you live?

Rittenhouse.

I love traveling to other cities to see how different they are from here. Philadelphia is the anti-city city. It has nice parts, but for the most part its unforgiving.
 

MAF

Well-Known Member
The best part about this is that JT is proven WRONG once again. I never get tired of that...:ROFLOL:
 

Krack

Active Member
The best part about this is that JT is proven WRONG once again. I never get tired of that...:ROFLOL:

No, you don't understand ... he's not wrong, it's just that the Orlando High Speed Rail is part of the Phase 2 of the FLE. It's coming right after Fairy Plantation (or whatever that Tinkerbell playland thing was called).
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member


Of course crime is a contributing factor to people leaving the cities. Unfortunately, with increased population densities comes increased crime- it’s not exactly a selling feature. However, one cannot discount other valid contributing factors as well; such as the overall living conditions. The people who left Philly for South Jersey or other areas were not looking for “estates in the country”; just a small yard for their kids to play in- with grass. Also, the population density in the suburbs of South Jersey is still relatively high (it’s just not a concrete grid); and as a consequence has a relatively high crime rate- just not as high as the inner city.

The high density in some south jersey communities is to due to them being streetcar suburbs, opposed to the sprawl suburbs like washington township that grew due to 42 and 55 being built.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
So trains would be better if congress gives us enough money to make them economical? Where does congress get the money? I recently took the downeaster from NH to Boston. (about 50 miles) For 3 of us, the trip cost $90 on the train. Good thing my other 2 kids stayed at home. When we made it to North Station, we needed to buy tickets for the T. Another $12 spent. Both of those systems are already subsidized by Uncle Sam, so all of you helped pay for the trip too. (Thanks BTW). So for 3 of us to travel 100 miles round trip, it cost somewhere between $100 and $125. Had I driven my van, we would have had room for another 5 passengers and the trip would have cost less that $30 in gas. Throw in $20 for parking and is it still less that half the cost of the train.

Yup. Welcome to why I don't use the Downeaster. That and it takes so frakking long to get there.

Some people think it's a delight - but I'm not going to pay 2-3 times as much to spend even more time traveling.

It's like vacation at Disney - some people are vehemently opposed to driving on vacation. It doesn't bother me at all - I enjoy driving. Even when I stay on-property, I'd much rather park hop with my own car than sit and wait for buses that may or may not be coming. I get to control the climate myself, don't have to get coughed/sneezed on from people who didn't know enough to stay home if they are sick, and I get there as quick if not quicker than buses. Personally, I find waiting at a bus stop to be the most unglamorous, most un-vacation thing I can think of.

Different strokes, though, I guess.

It's just amazing to me that laying train tracks costs so much...it's astounding to me. I know there are reasons why, but geesh - billions of dollars for such a short length? It boggles my mind.
 

fillerup

Well-Known Member
An actual update from today's O'Sentinel. We should have final word by next Friday on this plan to finally admit it's a "Tourist Train".

Rep. Mica announces 'rescue plan' for high-speed rail

"U.S. Rep. John Mica revealed a plan late Friday that he said could save the high-speed train from Orlando to Tampa that Gov. Rick Scott wants scuttled.

Mica, chairman of the powerful House transportation committee, proposed building only an initial link connecting Orlando International Airport, the Orange County Convention Center and Walt Disney World, a distance of about 21miles.

He has long complained that the Orlando-Tampa line would be a “dog on revenue” once it extended beyond the theme-park area in Central Florida"

Full Article
 

Mammymouse

Well-Known Member
An actual update from today's O'Sentinel. We should have final word by next Friday on this plan to finally admit it's a "Tourist Train".

Rep. Mica announces 'rescue plan' for high-speed rail

"U.S. Rep. John Mica revealed a plan late Friday that he said could save the high-speed train from Orlando to Tampa that Gov. Rick Scott wants scuttled.

Mica, chairman of the powerful House transportation committee, proposed building only an initial link connecting Orlando International Airport, the Orange County Convention Center and Walt Disney World, a distance of about 21miles.

He has long complained that the Orlando-Tampa line would be a “dog on revenue” once it extended beyond the theme-park area in Central Florida"

Full Article


Thanks for the full article posting - it t is right in line with my previous post #445 (I don't know how to double quote on here).
 
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