Orlando High Speed Rail IS DEFINITE

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TP2000

Well-Known Member
I'm not gonna touch this debate.
But I will say this. We can't drive cars forever.
Better to make plans now, then later.
And as for Suburbs to City living?
All I'll say is can't keep cutting down forests to build new suburbs forever.

We can't drive cars that burn dead dinosaurs forever. There's only about 75 or 100 years, maybe 150 years with new technologies, left of that stuff. But we can drive cars that use electricity or hydrogen or some future fuel for thousands of years after the oil is gone. Your friendly Chevrolet dealer will be happy to sell you a Volt sedan this weekend, in fact. If you live in SoCal, your friendly Honda dealer can put you in a hydrogen-powered Clarity sedan this weekend too.

And as someone who has driven many of the backwoods highways of the Great Pacific Northwest, I'm happy to tell you that the forests grow back in the blink of a geological eye. And work amazing wonders as they do so.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
Another huge problem with the Tampa-Orlando proposal. No connections! No connection to Amtrak. No connection to SunRail. Even the White House, in its high speed rail plan of which this project is the "first step," only has Florida connected to the proposed national high speed system by an "other rail connection" between Orlando and Jacksonville.

Agreed, the high speed lines proposed should be connected to each other or atleast be connected to others in their regions. An orlando to tampa line should be a phase 2 project along with an orlando to miami line, the phase one should be jacksonville to wdw. If the governor wants to see how profitable this new phase one would be, western way should be extended to cr 532 with a train station to the existing rail line with disney transportation provided.

Rail is convenient and worth its hassles because the roads in an around New York are clogged. Plenty of people still drive in New York City and between Paris and Lyon and Tokyo and Osaka (the only two high speed lines in the world that routinely operate in the black).

Well all three areas are highly densely populated, so people will use whatever form of transportation they either can afford, is easiest, and or like the most.

It will be interesting to see what the court says. I will not object to the court ruling if it is against the governor, but maybe wiser heads will prevails and it will be realized that conventional rail, easily able to accommodate future high speed trains, would be a significantly wiser use of this money and the plans to build transit in Florida.

It will be, if they rule with scott then the status quo stays in place, if they rule against him then their will be earthquakes for every republican governor that is trying to undue previous projects and contracts.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It will be, if they rule with scott then the status quo stays in place, if they rule against him then their will be earthquakes for every republican governor that is trying to undue previous projects and contracts.

Ridiculous.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
And they will do this through sleight of hand or just printing more monopoly money? :rolleyes:

Economics 101.

Bye bye HSR. :wave: Perhaps we can spend that money on nuclear power. :)

We found a way to fund unnecessary wars, a $65 billion program that produced $150 million warplanes that have not seen any combat, and tax cuts without a budget surplus to fund them. Funding HSR will do much good and it will cut the maintenance cost for our existing highways or atleast divert it to projects other than repaving every 5 years.
 

flavious27

Well-Known Member
If you look around, you'll find plenty of writing about a "back to the city" movement inspired by things like revitalized town centers, converted loft housing, and a general weariness with commuting and a perceived blandness and lack of "authenticity" in suburbia.

Most of the writing is probably more anecdotal than data-based, but the perception that many people are growing tired of suburban life and being enticed into urban settings is clearly out there in some circles.

Like this place:

CelebrationLogo2.gif
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
We found a way to fund unnecessary wars, a $65 billion program that produced $150 million warplanes that have not seen any combat, and tax cuts without a budget surplus to fund them. Funding HSR will do much good and it will cut the maintenance cost for our existing highways or atleast divert it to projects other than repaving every 5 years.

We already have one "Mr Talking Points" who blathers on and on around here. We don't need another.

Plus this is a politics free zone. It is a fine line that you have just trampled into oblivion.
 

AndyMagic

Well-Known Member
I wasn't aware it was up for debate either. I and most people I know consider quality of life to be (in general) inversely proportional to population density. I guess I never even considered the possibility that there was another side.

Having lived both in an urban setting in college, and "upgraded" to the suburbs for my adult life, I can tell you that for me there's no comparison. My quality of life is MUCH higher here than it was then, and not just because I have a positive income now. I'd almost go as far as to say that if I was forced to move back to a city (and I would have to be forced), I would probably consider it a nightmare.

Based on how many different points you made, you seem to feel strongly about this. I'm not going to counter every one, but I'll jump around a little.

For one thing, I'm not sure that what an urban planner thinks we should be "shooting for" is the same as what we actually should be shooting for. You cite a lot of comparisons between cities of different densities. You don't cite any comparisons between cities and suburbs.

While I'm aware of the trend of people moving into cities, I always assumed most were doing so involuntarily, though I could be wrong about that. Probably because, as I indicated, that's the only way I would do so.

You also paint a very appealing picture of city living, with walking to the grocery store, and taking the metro to work. But most metros I've been on, you don't dare take your eyes off your fellow passengers, let alone read a book.

I couldn't imagine how many extra trips to the store I'd have to take if I could only buy as much as I could carry.

I guess when you get down to it it really is just a matter of preference. But I guess I would then submit that if high-density is your preference you have plenty of choices. No reason to wish it on a population that doesn't want it.

It's clear that you just don't like city living. There is nothing wrong with that really except that I posted actual quality of life statistics and you just posted your preferences. I've lived in Boston, Hartford, Berlin, and for the last 6 years, I've lived in New York City. I've visited most major American cities. Maybe in the 70s and 80s it was scary to ride American metros but ever since white flight reversed and urban professionals invaded, the subways are remarkably safe. People feel so comfortable they often take a nap and I'd say 90 percent of the folks I ride the subway with in the morning are either reading a book or watching something on their iphone. And there IS reason to wish high population density on those that don't want it because sprawl is essentially destroying the environment. The carbon footprint of a New Yorker is 1/4th that of an average suburban home owner. Quite frankly it is wasteful to run gas, electric, water, roads, and every other type of infrastructure needed for living in these remote areas. I don't think we should be forcing people to move to cities but I do believe we should stop subsidizing gas, parking and highways as much as we do and I firmly believe we should be raising the gas tax.
 

AndyMagic

Well-Known Member
These are you opinions not facts. Here are some facts for you....

2000 population number for the city of Chicago-2,896,016
2010 population number for the city of Chicago-2,695,598

2000 population number for the city of Chicago AND the suburbs-9,312,255
2010 population number for the city of Chidago AND the suburbs-9,804,845

The city of Chicago and its higher density LOST 200,000 residents in a ten year period while the lower density suburbs went up almost 700,000 people. People sure are flocking to that higher density living.:ROFLOL:
I have lived in both the city of Chicago and I now have a house in the burbs, and you would have to drag me kicking and screaming to go back to the city. Not living on top of each other, having your own space, is a higher quality of life to me.....

You use Chicago as the only example ignoring every other city and claim it is a trend and you also ignore that Chicago "suburbs" are actually fairly urban and dense by American standards.

Population of New York City in 1990 = 7,322,564
Population of New York City in 2009 = 8,391,881 (15 percent population increase)

In less than 20 years a MILLION people moved to New York.

Population of Boston in 1990 = 574,283
Population of Boston in 2009 = 645,169 (11 percent population increase)

Population of Portland in 1990 = 437,319
Population of Portland in 2009 = 583,776 (30 percent increase)

Now check the suburbs of some of these cities to compare. Right off the bat, Nassau County, NY saw an increase of only 1 percent.

If you ran these numbers from 1960 - 1980 you see massive decreases in population during the great flight to the suburbs. It is very clear the trend has dramatically reversed. Once again, it's fine that you like suburban living but let's not pretend there isn't a movement in America back to urban centers. There is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...526/Americans-migrate-back-to-the-cities.html

http://www.planetizen.com/node/34331

http://www.builderonline.com/infill-development/housing-migrates-back-to-cities.aspx
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
It's clear that you just don't like city living. There is nothing wrong with that really except that I posted actual quality of life statistics and you just posted your preferences. I've lived in Boston, Hartford, Berlin, and for the last 6 years, I've lived in New York City.

I see that you took up a point which I tried to make earlier in this thread... Just wanted to say that I am another person who loves living in the city instead of in a suburb. :wave: And if the Berlin you lived in, is Berlin, Germany - I used to live there until a few months ago.
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member
You use Chicago as the only example ignoring every other city and claim it is a trend and you also ignore that Chicago "suburbs" are actually fairly urban and dense by American standards.

Population of New York City in 1990 = 7,322,564
Population of New York City in 2009 = 8,391,881 (15 percent population increase)

In less than 20 years a MILLION people moved to New York.

From
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/census/popcur.shtml

If you look at the data borough by borough its not so clear. The borough that had the greatest percentage change from 2000-2009 is Staten island which is the most suburban area of the city. Next in percentage is Manhattan (the most urban), then bronx, brooklyn and queens. If you go by pure numbers, the ordering is Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens, Bronx and Staten Island.

If you look at the numbers from 2008-2009, Manhattan is the ONLY borough with a population DECREASE.

If what you you were saying is as impactful as you're saying, then you'd think Manhattan would be the clear leader from 2000-2009 :). When does the census bureau release their data for the New York Region? I'd like to see those numbers.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
We already have one "Mr Talking Points" who blathers on and on around here. We don't need another.

Plus this is a politics free zone. It is a fine line that you have just trampled into oblivion.

Oh, the irony.......
 

njDizFan

Well-Known Member
Count me as another person who would love to move into a more urban setting. I guess you can say I live in suburbia, although a 20 minute drive from NYC and a population of 80K is certainly different from say somewhere in middle America.

The idea of city living is in my mind a great advantage. Access to museums, diverse dining, cultural experiences, movies, theater, shopping, not having to own a vehicle etc.

The cost is just prohibative. If I could get a decent apartment for 400K in the city I would switch it for my 3 bedroom with a yard anyday.
 
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