NYT: "Universal....Takes Aim at Disney"

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
I've been lurking for a while, but it's time to come out the woodwork and pipe up again. Two weeks ago, some of my friends came to Orlando and wanted to see Potter. I haven't been to Universal since I got into the HP premiere for free with someone, and I'm probably one of the few locals without a dirt-cheap AP to the place. I prefer my AP to Sea World and Busch Gardens, and I get into Disney for free. This time I had to pay for IOA. Simply put, the park wasn't worth $95.

Now before anyone says that we should have purchased multi-day tickets, there is NOTHING at Universal Studios that interested any of us. The Simpsons? Twister? No thanks. My friends only wanted to ride the Forbidden Journey, and I looked forward to another go.

Potter exceeded everyone's expectations, even though it's clearly not Disney. Yes, the show building is visible throughout the entire park, including directly in front the main entrance. You don't have to look for it; it's just there. All of Universal has this problem; you can see Spiderman's building from across the lagoon, too. It's gracious to call the Potter stores "small"; they're tiny. Dragon Challenge is an inferior redressing of Dueling Dragons, and Flight of the Hippograff is the Barnstormer.

BUT the Forbidden Journey attraction is easily, hands down, unquestionably the most technologically advanced, impressive thrill ride on earth. Disney doesn't have anything that comes close to it. I hesitate to call it the "best" ride overall in Orlando because I prefer the experiences Disney offers with fully realized environments like the HM, POTC, and Splash. FJ definitely had noticeable budget cuts that Disney wouldn't have allowed: you can see the show building ceilings, the screen edges, and the theatrical lighting, especially in the Whomping Willow and Dementors segments. The mirrors used in the loading area look cheap. Yet the moment you enter the observatory and make your way out of Hogwarts, the attraction is a series of Wow moments. I normally don't care for Universal's style of attractions where the ride keeps yelling, "Watch out!" For example, Spiderman has never impressed me because I feel like I'm just watching a 3-D movie on a shaking chair. Potter is different. The attraction blends technology and a storyline so well, I can confidently call it the closest thing to classic Disney on the east coast since Tower of Terror opened.

So why didn't we feel like we got our money's worth? Because the rest of IOA is a dressed-up Six Flags. The entrance has impressive facades, but the interiors are unfinished. Painting ductwork black doesn't make it go away. Marvel Super Hero Island and Toon Lagoon look like Six Flags, with painted flats, rusted buildings, peeling paint, plain queues, and carnival games. Hulk and Spiderman are good rides, but aren't fully realized environments. Jurassic Park River Adventure is a joke. I wouldn't call the dinosaurs animatronics; they're pretty much robots that barely move. And Seuss Landing would be better if it had a fresh coat of paint. I can't think of anything at WDW, Sea World, or Busch Gardens that looks as bad as Seuss Landing. Lost Continent features impressive, DAK-style facades that house two shows and the same carny games as Toon Lagoon.

The food was awful. We didn't eat at Mythos because we wanted the full WWOHP experience. This decision was a mistake. To be fair, Butterbeer is indeed delicious and surprisingly inexpensive. But the food itself was overpriced by theme park standards and disappointing. My fish and chips were greasy and my friend's shepherd's pie tasted like Taco Bell with mashed potatoes on top.

That's why we didn't feel like we received our money's worth. Universal needs to improve its overall product. Yes, they have WWOHP, and yes, FJ is an incredible ride. But IOA is not worth $95 after tax. We finished everything by 2:00 and spent the rest of the day re-riding three attractions (FJ, Hulk, Dragon). Just like DAK isn't worth the price of a one-day admission, IOA isn't either. Universal offers reasonably priced multi-day tickets and wants to compete with Disney as destination resort; yet Disney has the MK and Epcot to justify multi-day passes, and Universal doesn't. If Universal wants to price itself like Disney, it needs to overhaul its entire property. I would have paid $45 just to enter WWOHP, or $65 for IOA. At $95 plus $15 parking and nasty food, I won't be visiting Universal again for a long time.

A good, objective view of what you think of the park. It differs a bit from mine, but not completely. I agree Suess needs paint badly. I think the food ain't great in IOA, but that's why I only eat at Mythos and Margaritaville. I always walk straight through toon lagoon.

But I think Spidey is incredible. I like JP, and my kids love the JP play area. The ride building thing doesnt bother me at Uni OR Disney for some reason.

I agree IOA has some issues, and we've never been able to make it a whole day in the park... But when I personally praise Uni, it's in regard to what they've done recently, which I think is top notch... Head and shoulders above what Disney has even attempted, I believe.

Good to see you posting again, Tirian.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Theme park and resort revenue was $2.9 Billion for 1Q2012, up 10% from 1Q last year. Profits were $222 Million, up 53% from last year. Theme parks continue to provide a strong positive cash flow for the Walt Disney Company.

That's not the point - the point is not if they are healthy or not. It's that it takes a ton of money to make that money. Its far more attractive to some to 'just make money off someone else's efforts'. Think the model that TDL uses... OLC owns and operates the parks and has all the liability. TWDC just collects money off of OLC's efforts and sells services to OLC. TWDC gets lots of money with little to no investment nor liability.

Conversely, selling WDW would "cheapen" the Disney brand, Walt Disney World being intimately associated with the Walt Disney Company, potentially causing significant financial damage to the entire brand

You mean like the outsourcing of operations in the park already? Like transportation... curb side services... golf... etc?

Such a move would never be advertised as 'selling WDW world' it would be more like 'partnering with ABC to operate the parks to allow TWDC to focus on advancing theme park design' or something stupid. It would be positioned as a partnership.. where in reality it would be a passing of the

So if Disney were to sell WDW, who would buy it any why would it make sense for them to want to buy it?

Almost unlimited revenue possibilities... association with one of the strongest brands globally..
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Theme park and resort revenue was $2.9 Billion for 1Q2012, up 10% from 1Q last year. Profits were $222 Million, up 53% from last year. Theme parks continue to provide a strong positive cash flow for the Walt Disney Company.

My guess is that WDW is worth about $30 to $50 Billion as an asset. Selling an asset as valuable as WDW might make sense if Disney needed to raise capital. However, I believe Disney has an excellent balance sheet. Conversely, selling WDW would "cheapen" the Disney brand, Walt Disney World being intimately associated with the Walt Disney Company, potentially causing significant financial damage to the entire brand. Then there's the question of who would buy WDW. It only make sense if it was in that company's best interest. Very few corporations could afford that sort of deal. Can you imagine "Walt Disney World brought to you by Exxon Mobil"?

So if Disney were to sell WDW, who would buy it any why would it make sense for them to want to buy it?

Read kevins essay and you will understand how quickly wdw's fortunes can turn:

http://miceage.micechat.com/kevinyee/ky091807a.htm

How much of the Q1 profit was simply cashing the check from OLC? And if TDO has proven one thing, they're lazy. It would make all the sense in the world for them to sell the parks. Hopefully OLC is a buyer
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
A good, objective view of what you think of the park. It differs a bit from mine, but not completely. I agree Suess needs paint badly. I think the food ain't great in IOA, but that's why I only eat at Mythos and Margaritaville. I always walk straight through toon lagoon.

But I think Spidey is incredible. I like JP, and my kids love the JP play area. The ride building thing doesnt bother me at Uni OR Disney for some reason.

Yes, I know I'm probably the only person on earth who doesn't get a thrill up my leg about Spiderman. That's 100% just me. :rolleyes: At least let me explain. IMHO--my extremely humble opinion--the cardboard-flat queue at Spidey leaves much to be desired. It's almost a comic-book aesthetic, but on the cheap. Then the ride basically whisks you through 3-D screens and some blacklight sets while villains yell that they're gonna' get you. Your vehicle shakes every time they touch it. The final scene where you "fall" is impressive, but there's so much confusion leading up to it, I don't feel any connection to this ride. I get the same feeling from the Mummy. It's just a series of scenes where someone yells he's gonna' get you. (One way...or another...I'm gonna' find ya...I'm gonna' get ya, get ya, get ya, get ya...)

FJ works because of the brief calm moments that lead up to the encounters. The flight through the observatory; the seconds of thrilling flight before the dragon attacks; the quidditch match; and the fully realized return over the water, into Hogwarts, to Harry and friends, to Dumbledore, and finally into the hall--it's storytelling at its best.

I agree IOA has some issues, and we've never been able to make it a whole day in the park...
Universal's biggest issue right now is maintenance throughout all of IOA except WWOHP. Hogsmeade was incredible, while the rest of the park barely performed above Six Flags. It seems they're dumping all their budget into keeping WWOHP in top condition, which is understandable. Too bad the rest of the park suffers.

But when I personally praise Uni, it's in regard to what they've done recently, which I think is top notch... Head and shoulders above what Disney has even attempted, I believe.
There's no doubt about it. WWOHP is far beyond what anyone else has done anywhere; judging from pictures, I'd include Carsland in that mix. An updated Test Track with Cars AAs is still just that; Forbidden Journey is an entirely new ride system.


Good to see you posting again, Tirian.
Thanks, I still occasionally pop up from time to time, although I'm too busy to participate much. :(
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
Theme park and resort revenue was $2.9 Billion for 1Q2012, up 10% from 1Q last year. Profits were $222 Million, up 53% from last year. Theme parks continue to provide a strong positive cash flow for the Walt Disney Company.

I don't think you can compare the first quarters of financial years 2011 and 2012. 2011 was before the Disney Dream was launched (DCL is part of Parks & Resorts), so there certainly is the revenue missing they make from having that large cruise ship sailing.

I was first confused where you get the number from that profits were up 53%? I am not an expert at reading financial documents, but I understand this one here to say that the income was up 18%. But then I figured out that that figure is from the results of the second quarter of the financial year 2012. And if you have a closer look at that report you will also find that it states the following:

The increase at Tokyo Disney Resort reflected the loss of income in the prior- year quarter from the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami in Japan, which resulted in a temporary suspension of operations, and the collection of related business interruption insurance proceeds in the current-year quarter.

However, in the first quarter of 2011 (which does not have the effects of the tragedy that happened in Japan) there was a rise in profit, too. It was only 18% however.

Just wanted to put some perspective on those numbers as numbers are only valuable if you see them in their full context. :)
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
Also, strange choice for a Jim Hunt's replacement, which seems to have gone missed on this forum.

Forgot that I meant to ask about this. Yes, I missed it - but I also don't know Jim Hunt is and whom he was replaced with. Or even more importantly what he was responsible for.
 

adr315

Member
Am I the only one who has seen the writing on the wall about the upcoming Disneyland projects? I have no inside info, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about:

- A motion base boat ride E-ticket coming to Frontierland (same technology as Pirates Shanghai). Could it be Lone Ranger themed? Or a nod to Western River Expedition?
- A movie-themed E-ticket in Tomorrow. Either Iron Man or Avengers themed. Or maybe a clone of Shanghai's Tron motorbike coaster?

- Something very big and involving the much-ballyhooed Strawberry Field (as hinted by Lee). A third gate? A waterpark? Something else?

Lee, Spirit, Marni or anyone else in the know... care to let us know if I'm hot or cold?
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I don't think you can compare the first quarters of financial years 2011 and 2012. 2011 was before the Disney Dream was launched (DCL is part of Parks & Resorts), so there certainly is the revenue missing they make from having that large cruise ship sailing.

I was first confused where you get the number from that profits were up 53%? I am not an expert at reading financial documents, but I understand this one here to say that the income was up 18%. But then I figured out that that figure is from the results of the second quarter of the financial year 2012. And if you have a closer look at that report you will also find that it states the following:

However, in the first quarter of 2011 (which does not have the effects of the tragedy that happened in Japan) there was a rise in profit, too. It was only 18% however.

Just wanted to put some perspective on those numbers as numbers are only valuable if you see them in their full context. :)
Thanks for the correction. I always forget to take into consideration Disney's different business year. Disney's second quarter runs until March 31, which I always think of as first quarter. I suspect most companies would be very happy with an 18% increase in profits.;)

I mention the numbers because the theme parks & resorts division continues to do well for the Walt Disney Company, better than most other segments.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the correction. I always forget to take into consideration Disney's different business year. Disney's second quarter runs until March 31, which I always think of as first quarter. I suspect most companies would be very happy with an 18% increase in profits.;)

I mention the numbers because the theme parks & resorts division continues to do well for the Walt Disney Company, better than most other segments.

That's not correct on a margin basis, which what wall st cares about most. Compared to the others, it stands out as a questionable business to be in
 

cbconglom

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who has seen the writing on the wall about the upcoming Disneyland projects? I have no inside info, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about:

- A motion base boat ride E-ticket coming to Frontierland (same technology as Pirates Shanghai). Could it be Lone Ranger themed? Or a nod to Western River Expedition?
- A movie-themed E-ticket in Tomorrow. Either Iron Man or Avengers themed. Or maybe a clone of Shanghai's Tron motorbike coaster?

- Something very big and involving the much-ballyhooed Strawberry Field (as hinted by Lee). A third gate? A waterpark? Something else?

Lee, Spirit, Marni or anyone else in the know... care to let us know if I'm hot or cold?

Yes please! There would be great squealing in my household for the frontierland one
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Then the ride basically whisks you through 3-D screens and some blacklight sets while villains yell that they're gonna' get you. Your vehicle shakes every time they touch it. The final scene where you "fall" is impressive, but there's so much confusion leading up to it, I don't feel any connection to this ride

The plot and premise are pretty weak I agree. Transformers basically has the same trap. But the experience as a whole is pretty good, and it does immerse you in an environment and situations that are really unique and fun. I think the Mummy is good for the same reason.

I do really wish the ride has a better plot and premise for the whole thing
 

Jim Handy

Active Member
I am convinced in basic infrastructure alone, you are talking a few billion dollars.
Then update and modernize the four parks and that's a few billion more.

Yeah, who has those kind of pockets and would be willing ... it sure limits you.
And Bob knew what WDW needed. Instead of chipping away at it, and in 2006 it was much more manageable, he chose to let the pile build.
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the correction. I always forget to take into consideration Disney's different business year. Disney's second quarter runs until March 31, which I always think of as first quarter. I suspect most companies would be very happy with an 18% increase in profits.;)

I mention the numbers because the theme parks & resorts division continues to do well for the Walt Disney Company, better than most other segments.

As I said, the 2012 second quarter compared to 2011 has two things that make it not at all representative: 2011 was down due to the pars in Japan being closed. Even if TWDC does not own these parks, they earn money in royalties etc. They have however loss of business insurance - and the payment from the insurance company came in the second quarter 2012. So that was unique revenue that does not have anything to do with how profitable the business is.

Also, just look at the numbers for the second quarter of financial year 2010: http://thewaltdisneycompany.com/sites/default/files/reports/q2-fy10-earnings.pdf There the profit went down 12% as compared to 2009 due to less attendance and higher fuel costs for the cruise line.

I would say this is a highly volatile business that depends a lot on outside factors.

And also as someone else pointed out before: You need a lot more money to make money with Park % Resorts than with the other parts of Disney's businesses. This is best illustrated if you set the revenue and the income of the different segments into relation. The following numbers are from the 2011 Annual Report.

For Media Networks the revenue was 18,714,000,000 and the income was 6,146,000,000: That makes a ratio of about 3:1.

For Parks & Resorts revenue was 11,797,000,000 and the income was 1,553,000,000: That is a ratio of nearly 10:1.

This means that you need to shift about three times as much money around at Parks & Resorts than at Media Networks. As I understand it, this is what makes it a business some people might consider less desirable to be in.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
Am I the only one who has seen the writing on the wall about the upcoming Disneyland projects? I have no inside info, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about:

- A motion base boat ride E-ticket coming to Frontierland (same technology as Pirates Shanghai)... Or a nod to Western River Expedition?

Seriously, this might tip the scales and lead to a full scale riot amongst WDW fans if DL gets the all mythical (and sacred WDW treasure next to BK) WRE.
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member
The plot and premise are pretty weak I agree. Transformers basically has the same trap. But the experience as a whole is pretty good, and it does immerse you in an environment and situations that are really unique and fun. I think the Mummy is good for the same reason.

I do really wish the ride has a better plot and premise for the whole thing

The first few times I rode spider-man I didn't really get it myself, and didn't really enjoy the ride that much. I didn't realize why they were trying to get us and why there is this green laser thing, and why we're flying through the air and such. Then I paid attention to the pre-ride videos and it really tied it all together for me. The villains are have a weapon that can lift objects, we're junior reporters trying to get info on it, and get caught in the midst of the villians cooking up their plans and get to have the weapon used on us. I agree that there are some "gonna get you moments", but it seems like its pretty coherent story line, and I think it holds up pretty well to most Disney "action" rides. I'd say its a better plot and premise than Everest, Space Mountain, Big Thunder Mountain, Splash Mountain. I'd say it compares favorably to ToT, RnRC, Soarin, Mission: Space.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Am I the only one who has seen the writing on the wall about the upcoming Disneyland projects? I have no inside info, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about:

- A motion base boat ride E-ticket coming to Frontierland (same technology as Pirates Shanghai). Could it be Lone Ranger themed? Or a nod to Western River Expedition?
- A movie-themed E-ticket in Tomorrow. Either Iron Man or Avengers themed. Or maybe a clone of Shanghai's Tron motorbike coaster?

- Something very big and involving the much-ballyhooed Strawberry Field (as hinted by Lee). A third gate? A waterpark? Something else?

Lee, Spirit, Marni or anyone else in the know... care to let us know if I'm hot or cold?
Not hot...but definitely warm-ish.
 

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