Numbers, Cars and Quality ...

[WDW1974]

Oh, he is well aware of the situation.
I don't think he will try to stop it, but rather will continue to express his opinion.
He technically doesn't have the "power" to stop such things, but he does have considerable clout to bargain with, if he so chooses.

Maybe we should call him. Who has his number...

you mean his REAL, personal numbers? Not a switchboard or an assistant? Hmm ... I can think of a Spirit or two with those numbers.

as to whether he can/will change things, I don't know. He clearly has power with how his franchises get used and Cars is near and dear to him. But his ability to bring about positive CHANGE at WDW hasn't been great -- or used much from what I gather. He just has too much on his plate, and WDW is off to the side.

 

[WDW1974]

I remember when I first heard that term, that is in1997 at Animal Kingdom and that was phrased many times by WDI. "This is our Value Engineered Scene" etc.

Makes folks who care about quality ... old school Disney quality want to puke (sorta like the way I feel about folks who feel that toilet paper use is optional!)

 

[the.dreamfinder]

The problem with TDO and WDW Co. is that it doesn't know how to operate any differently than this because it has been doing so since the rise of the MBAs and consultants in the mid-90s. WDW's decline really started about the time they were deciding on painting the castle pink.

@WDW1974, I've been wondering about when the decline of WDW actually started. Would you say that the rapid expansion of property on the late 80's to mid 90's had an effect in the decline since one would imagine it's harder to train people with a bunch of stuff going up all at once?

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Does anyone think the nice, but not groundbreaking or bar raising or substanial, FLE is going to be an attendance driver going forward? Anyone at all?

No, not really. It's so minimal. Why would you spend that kind of time & money to plan a trip to WDW just for that? I wouldn't. I'll get to see it in January but that's only because the WDW day is a single day on the itinerary of our 8-night cruise on the Disney Magic. We're definitely looking forward to Key West and Castaway Cay a whole lot more.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Oh the irony in the whole bring Carsland to WDW discussion.

Anaheim builds a substandard (by Disney's standard) park in CA using off the shelf rides and other "value engineered" attractions. After years of languishing attendance due to the lower show quality they decide the only way to fix the park is an enormous capital investment. Now WDW management want to try and boost their attendance numbers by building a stripped down version of the land that has turned around CA while ignoring the things that makes it so great. Personally, I'd rather them do something original than a reduced and rehashed Carsland.

It seems that upper management views WDW as some kind of monster that they are afraid to go near. As long as it still turns a profit they don't see any perceived value in actually making real changes (neh, improvements) in content or quality. When profitability looks to be narrow they just cut their way back into the black at the cost of maintenance, upkeep, front line cast member training/compensation and show quality. Yes, I know that FLE is a pleasant surprise from a quality stand point but from an attraction point of view it's not anywhere near the level of Carsland or Harry Potter.

I'm convinced that until IOA and/or USO pass up DHS AND AK in attendance numbers then there will be no concerns in the halls of Anaheim or Orlando.

It really is a case of TDO not learning from Disneyland's mistakes. As @WDW1974 a while ago, things will get worse before they get better. Part of me wants the "getting worse" part to get over with, bring on Next Gen, watch Disney waste a billion dollars, and then spend another 3 billion trying to fix their mistakes.

 

[RSoxNo1]

John Lasster and Tom Staggs will save Carsland from being value engineered by TDO and make hollywood studios a better Theme Park because John Lasster wants Carsland to be a Full Recreation of his beloved Cars Franschise.Tom Staggs wants Walt Disney World to be a better experince for guests that's why he revised New Fanstayland with the additions of storybook ciruis,Princess fairytale hall and Seven Dwarfs mine train and sighing a deal with James Cameron and 20th century fox to bring Avatarland to Animal Kingdom and Tom Staggs is makeing major changes to Epcot after touring Epcot with Bob Iger in 2010 where both he and Iger argeed Epcot needed a Major DCA Style makeover project.Tom Staggs greenlit Test Track 2.0,The Epcot charchear Spot re-theming and rennovantion project and a Agent P's world showchase adventrue.

It's nice to see Disney is using child labor for their social media scamming.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Ever watched the movie Idiocracy? Good concept, from what I hear, studio execs chopped it to heck and kind of ruined it. Anyway, that movie is the picture I got in my head when you said this.
Incidentally, some day I'll be able to tell my children that they are a direct result of the opening few minutes of that movie. "umm, honey maybe we shouldn't be waiting for 'the right time' to start our family"

TDO has the stuff fans crave!

 

[Captain Chaos]

TDO has the stuff fans crave!

They got the pixie dust by the dime bags...

 

[RSoxNo1]

Before I wade back into this thread, I did want to clarify/correct something I said in Post Numero Uno (the only post I have here thus far) ... and that is regarding DCA's numbers.

If DCA is to become a Top 5 in the world park, it will have to leapfrog both DLP and EPCOT, which is possible but not likely because I somehow forgot to include TDL in the Top 3 (posting at 3:30 a.m. might factor into that).

I also want to make it clear that whatever the numbers (and passing WDW's 3rd and 4th gates is a given at this point) wind up being that DCA 2.0 is succeeding beyond anyone's wildest expectations and likely why the Iron Man attraction is getting fast-tracked for DL. ... Now ... only seven pages of posts to read!

We discussed this, but I really don't think it's unrealistic to see the Universal parks leapfrog Epcot, DHS, and DAK in the 2015-2016 range. Unless Disney does a 180 on Fastpass+ and pours real money into the parks I see no reason for Universal's trends to change. They are being incredibly aggressive, the smell blood in the water, and they can build new attractions quicker and cheaper than Disney.

 

[menamechris]

We discussed this, but I really don't think it's unrealistic to see the Universal parks leapfrog Epcot, DHS, and DAK in the 2015-2016 range. Unless Disney does a 180 on Fastpass+ and pours real money into the parks I see no reason for Universal's trends to change. They are being incredibly aggressive, the smell blood in the water, and they can build new attractions quicker and cheaper than Disney.

I agree - and I think it has already happened in the minds of many consumers. While I think the Magic Kingdom will always be the definition of a theme park - I think most tourists could take or leave the other three WDW parks at this point. If Universal continues what they are doing (and it looks like they will) - I agree they will leapfrog the other Disney parks. By the time Disney realizes and accepts this - it will be far too late. A new generation may have found a new vacationing home.

 

[BrianLo]

Ah, the vitriol from Al's post makes so much more sense now. I figured that value engineering meant just dropping the less favourable aspects (ie. Luigi's, maybe the Cozy Cones) that aren't functioning as well. Dropping the restaurants and shops would be a head scratcher as they are obviously hugely money making for the minimal cost it would take to add them, but I could at least understand going for just the main ride as it's still part of the greater Pixar Studio's... But the rock work to cardboard, yes that deserves a big ole' ! I think everyone is on that same page now though.

@WDW1974 However, there is a lot of really good news from your posts! Billions and Billions you say? Any more details? What sort of timeframe are they looking to drop that CapEx? I'm dying for some Tokyo news as it's really so far and few between for us here. I also was a little saddened initially at the third gate being not Disney-IP... but if there is even a hint of Studio Ghibli I'll be thrilled - I'm sure the Japanese public would be as well. Please, please let that become a reality OLC!

Thankfully there are other resorts to cover for the bad years when one is in an awful state. Anaheim had its turn, I'm sure WDW will come around eventually. For now save your dollars for a Tokyo trip!

 

[WDW1974]

What is more joyful, Lee's giggling or Lee's singing? Maybe 74 can weigh in on this one...

I can't say I've ever heard him giggle ... I have heard him LOL, though ... his singing, though, it can make the heartiest fanboi moist ...

The giggling, trust me.
Although, I'm starting to rethink my use of the word "giggle". Seems....kinda...unmanly.
Maybe I should change it to "chortle"...

Yeah, only girls giggle ... when they see your jiggle ... say what? I really shouldn't post after midnight!

And 'chortle' ... what are you? One of them Ivory Tower intellectuals who believe the world is round? (Serious comment: they must just love a guy like you in the hills of TN!)

 

[WDW1974]

It seems that upper management views WDW as some kind of monster that they are afraid to go near. As long as it still turns a profit they don't see any perceived value in actually making real changes (neh, improvements) in content or quality. When profitability looks to be narrow they just cut their way back into the black at the cost of maintenance, upkeep, front line cast member training/compensation and show quality. Yes, I know that FLE is a pleasant surprise from a quality stand point but from an attraction point of view it's not anywhere near the level of Carsland or Harry Potter.[/quote]

I haven't seen FLE beyond Storybook Circus, but I'll be visiting in December. But while it's clear that the area is light years above most of the theming of the MK, I'd say the quality is being overstated because of what surrounds it and what has been considered acceptable at WDW over the last 15 years.

DCA 2.0 and WWoHP are so far beyond FLE to be beyond a fair comparison. ... But does it even compare to the level of DLP? Not from what I've seen beyond perhaps the interior of a dining facility.

 

[WDW1974]

I became a theme park passholder this year for the first time in my life -- for the Busch/SeaWorld parks. I've been going to Disney parks and staying at Disney resorts for decades, and have visited every Disney park in the world, so never in a million years would I have imagined that I'd become a passholder for another company before I ever had an annual pass for Disney... but it happened.

With the cost of WDW annual passes continuing to rise even as the parks stagnate, the relative value-for-cost of a WDW pass has only continued a long but steady decline.

Although Busch/SeaWorld recently raised the price of their two-year platinum pass from $440 to $500 (if purchased at SeaWorld Orlando or Busch Gardens Tampa Bay -- it's substantially less expensive if purchased at one of their other parks), in retrospect that's still a bargain considering what you get: for $250 a year, you can visit any of ten theme parks or water parks in the country, plus have free preferred parking (at SWO, this is literally the first couple of rows away from the entrance), preferred seating at shows, free guest passes, roller coaster re-ride privileges, discounts on food and purchases, etc.

In contrast -- for my upcoming trip to WDW, $250 barely gets me a 2-day parkhopper -- obviously without free parking or discounts of any kind. And if I want to see the special holiday stuff at the MK, that's an additional (and substantial) upcharge.

Not that long ago, I would have gladly paid 10 times as much to visit a WDW park as I would have to visit SWO or even Busch Gardens Williamsburg, with their relatively limited number of quality offerings -- but things have changed dramatically. I look at all the amazing holiday stuff that many of the Busch/SeaWorld parks include now as part of the price of admission, like Halloween at BGW or SWO's Christmas celebration (the main reason I'm visiting Orlando for the second time in less than three months), and it's clear that these parks have pulled neck-and-neck -- and even surpassed WDW -- in many of the ways that are important to me, and to my wallet.

Add in the fact that SWO is continuing to impress, with their upcoming Antarctica attraction (utilizing technology similar to that of TDL's Pooh, which Disney for some reason has never brought stateside), and it's not even close.

SW/Busch parks give a lot of bang for the $$$ these days. Those coast to coast APs are phenomenal values at their priciest levels. When you buy in San Antonio or San Diego, they are almost a steal.

I sorta wish I had a SW AP again (my last one expired two years ago) just to experience their Christmas offerings.

That's not to say I no longer have any interest in Disney parks... I loved Cars Land and the new DCA when I visited this fall, and I'm eagerly anticipating a return visit to HKDL and TDR next year. When the new Ratatouille attraction opens at DSP or when SDL premieres in a few years, I'll be there. But I probably won't be back at WDW for a long time after this trip... even if I'm in town visiting a bunch of penguins just down the road.

Make friends with a CM and you'll never have to pay for WDW admission again ... or befriend a Spirit who may take pity on your soul and let his friends help you! ... Oh, and I have a feeling you'll be at WDW to experience that E-Ticket (hey, lay off me, Lou Mongello told me!) new kiddie coaster coming in 2014.

BTW, is it just me or does anyone here ocassionally find that their keystrokes aren't appearing as typed? Almost like someone is recording them or something ... but it results in typos and makes posting a bit of a chore. I'd say it was my real world enemies, but only seems to happen when I post here. (for instance yhen R typed 'here' the word hxyr was what appeared). Hey, sometimes it isn't paranoia.

 

[WDW1974]

Spirit,
Bite the bullet. Make a blog. Do it for the rest of us.

I hate to take traffic from WDWmagic (because your threads are quite popular), but we (WDW fans) need you. Here in the forum your posts get covered up by the clutter of other threads and the comments of other users. While forum chat isn't always bad, it may whitewash the the real meat of your posts = "I'm just back again to share another way that WDW is declining by degrees in just about every way"

Any one of us could start a blog or site to try to get the message out there that we (the fans) are not happy, but you have the knowledge and a healthy following already. Plus, the blog would reach an other number of forums that may choose to reference you, while at the moment these forums may not feel comfortable posting from the competition (WDWmagic).

The message needs to get out there to cover up the nonsense that Disney wants everyone to believe. I am admittedly not a huge fan of yours, but your words are the words that need to be heard. The lifestylers need some competition. Heck, if any news station picked up on the blog, Disney would have to notice. Please. You need your own home, one to spread the word. I sit here pleading for your help because very few of us others have the potential to put even a small blip in the radar. If you make it, we will follow. (and of course discuss it here at WDWmagic after reading...)

Sincerely,
Anyone who gives a RATS bum about WDW.

Thanks for the post and the faith that my words can make a difference. I know that, but it is always reassuring to hear others say it, especially someone who isn't a big fan of mine (my fanboi army is on its way and will leave you looking like that old hermit after he was fed to the walkers on The Walking Dead last week!)

That said, I'll repeat what I've said for years, here and elsewhere. It's simple. We all have roles to play and blogger/Disney activist isn't mine. I can help with efforts, but I can't devote the time it would require and I don't relish that role.

People need to speak out. It's amazing what kind of difference y'all can make if you are one-minded. Look, there were high level meetings at Celebration Place because many folks apparently think Starbucks being served at one locale at the MK is cause for the Mayan calendar to be right. Those folks forced Disney to take some action and clarify things.

If you all decide on something, say you don't want the CoP to go the way of Mr. Toad or 20,000 Leagues, you can make a difference now.

If you all decide that attractions crumbling onto guests or ride vehicles or pathways isn't acceptable and make a big social media presence, you can make a difference.

But you can't rely on one person or one voice. No matter how strong or persuasive. The community, both here and in general, has far more power than it realizes. THAT is the problem. Oh, and about quality coffee coming to the MK doesn't help.

 

[WDW1974]

Less singing, more networking! Here you go: (510) 9223000. Ask for John.

Nah. That won't get you anywhere.

Having a real number, like a cell and a home ... and even a direct office ... yeah, those might get the man on the phone without a Disney plaid listening and watching everything.

But what do I know?

Oh yeah, plenty.

 

[WDW1974]

My money's on:

MK
TDL
DL
TDS
DLP
DCA
EPCOT
DAK
DHS

After thinking about it, I tend to think your rankings are more likely.

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974 - are these alternate versions of RSR as an attempt to try to bring the entire racers experience indoors?

Sounds like an attempt to replace the grand vista with an indoor experience with sets that you can only see driving by at 25mph..

I think you may have a point. We all know what happens to TT when it rains (just wait and see what this will do when FP+ is around and there is no FP anymore) with the large outdoor portion.

I can't imagine Disney would want to recreate that situation. I could see very little being outdoors and that portion under some sort of cover (unless they're afraid it would fall onto guests!)

 

[WDW1974]

@WDW1974, I've been wondering about when the decline of WDW actually started. Would you say that the rapid expansion of property on the late 80's to mid 90's had an effect in the decline since one would imagine it's harder to train people with a bunch of stuff going up all at once?

It's a good excuse. But I go to Vegas frequently and see mega-resorts go up overnight (or did before the crash) and generally you get top quality service at the top quality resorts/hotels/casinos.

I'd also say that WDW expanded tremendously from say 1988 to 1995 and the quality stayed high across the board. But then the business modeling changed. And many things were outsourced. Others were cut. I'm sure that most of the most vocal critics here will likely say all was well in the 90s, that it was only post Y2K that the resort began its decline, but my response would be simply 'you weren't paying close enough attention before that.''

 

[the.dreamfinder]

I'd also say that WDW expanded tremendously from say 1988 to 1995 and the quality stayed high across the board. But then the business modeling changed. And many things were outsourced. Others were cut.'

So it had more to do with Eisner's change in direction around late 1994 after his heart attack and the death of Frank Wells?