Numbers, Cars and Quality ...

[awoogala]

So true. When you take the scenery and dining spots out of the Fantasyland expansion, we have one new attraction, period. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea has been gone for well more than a decade and it has taken a decade to get at least ONE ride to take the place of it. A re-themed 60 second kiddie coaster, a doubling of a ride that is woefully under capacity, a water spot where kids run around like untamed animals, and new places to spend your money doesn't impress. (Even with Snow White, it's still a trade-off in attraction for attraction, but at least that seems to be a major enhancement over the prior attraction, but if you don't like any type of coaster ride... you're out.)

It's just like even with what looks to be a high-end quality redo of Test Track doesn't make up for the fact that other attractions are in shambles or shuttered in Epcot. Test Track had the masses going to it before and it will again.

they seem to be peddling cars in a new toy racer set on the blog.. And the box is "background of pixar place". Curious

 

[Atomicmickey]

Thanks for the post and the faith that my words can make a difference. I know that, but it is always reassuring to hear others say it, especially someone who isn't a big fan of mine (my fanboi army is on its way and will leave you looking like that old hermit after he was fed to the walkers on The Walking Dead last week!)

That said, I'll repeat what I've said for years, here and elsewhere. It's simple. We all have roles to play and blogger/Disney activist isn't mine. I can help with efforts, but I can't devote the time it would require and I don't relish that role.

People need to speak out. It's amazing what kind of difference y'all can make if you are one-minded. Look, there were high level meetings at Celebration Place because many folks apparently think Starbucks being served at one locale at the MK is cause for the Mayan calendar to be right. Those folks forced Disney to take some action and clarify things.

If you all decide on something, say you don't want the CoP to go the way of Mr. Toad or 20,000 Leagues, you can make a difference now.

If you all decide that attractions crumbling onto guests or ride vehicles or pathways isn't acceptable and make a big social media presence, you can make a difference.

But you can't rely on one person or one voice. No matter how strong or persuasive. The community, both here and in general, has far more power than it realizes. THAT is the problem. Oh, and about quality coffee coming to the MK doesn't help.

So, OK. Let's talk action plan, here. I believe what you say. What we need is some sort
of coordinated effort that we can be certain will get in front of the powers that be.

I know that we all think--probably know--that these messages, here, are being read.
But this place isn't the SHOUT that seems to be needed, other than to get a coffee shop
clarification. Hey, I asked for Roger Rabbit to be straightened out with some tape and
glue over a lunch hour, and no one has done that. Jason Garcia wrote an article in
the paper about the Yeti, and that was met with, um, . . . cricket, cricket . . . .

So what I'm asking for are suggestions. How to get the word out in a coordinated, public
way. Something like the way that Save Disney was done back in the day. We don't have
the clout behind us that that had, of course.

So, I'll add my voice in whatever way that people think will help, beyond this forum.
We're mad as mouse-eared-heck and we're not going to take it anymore.

So how to turn inchoate rage into something constructive, that will be noticed?

Basically, a public shame site, something like that?

 

[sweetpee_1993]

@ryguy, I have to agree with you about DVCers being the big losers here. We have a couple really good friends who bought in & I often feel terribly for them. I can't imagine the frustration. Call me a big flamin' b*tch, but my thoughts of pity for them are always closely followed by absolute relief that we DIDN'T commit to WDW/DVC. At this point I would be beyond livid. The neglect throughout the property is shameful from a taking-pride-in-keeping-your-house standpoint. But when you sell the dream and promises to millions of people you now have a responsibility to them that goes beyond just you. I remember the part of the pitch that was "faith in the quality because it's Disney". Yeah, someone should remind TDO of those standards....with a very big stick. LOL!

 

[SirLink]

You know what we need is a 'tool' that we can use to be spread through both twitter and facebook easily. Something easy which can be passed thorough Disney fan sites and easily update-able and shows WE ARE ONE.

We also as a group need to focus on the larger picture of show quality - not a ride at a time, or even an area at a time - and certainly not just targeting WDW fans, but theme park fans/fringe Disney fans/etc.

I would say look into those social media petitions that seemed to be everywhere with the coffee, but focus as an entity as one group...not like the 10 different ones always going - like the coffee had.

 

[Atomicmickey]

You know what we need is a 'tool' that we can use to be spread through both twitter and facebook easily. Something easy which can be passed thorough Disney fan sites and easily update-able and shows WE ARE ONE.

We also as a group need to focus on the larger picture of show quality - not a ride at a time, or even an area at a time - and certainly not just targeting WDW fans, but theme park fans/fringe Disney fans/etc.

I would say look into those social media petitions that seemed to be everywhere with the coffee, but focus as an entity as one group...not like the 10 different ones always going - like the coffee had.

I agree it needs to be a cross-site initiative.

Imagine if a lot of the major fan sites all posted something on the same day!
Or if all of them had a section devoted to these issues.

It's a unity thing. I can see it. I just don't have the ability to do it. Who does?

Here's the fear, though--it somewhat does need to be moderated/controlled. Otherwise, it won't
be taken seriously. We can't mix in petitions to "bring back that Ron guy as Dreamfinder" or
kick Starbucks out, or "rebuild Horizons" with serious, real-world concerns. It has to be sober,
adult, and reasonable. (sorry to any of you for whom those are pet issues, but I think this needs
to be bigger picture. I'll put aside my unatural desire to see 'veggie, fruit, fruit' again, if you'll
put yours aside.)

This can be a thing. We need to figure out how to do it, though. I don't have the connections
to try something like this, but behind the scenes, through email and PM's, someone does.

Coordinate. One mature, reasoned voice. LARGE. Could do something. Could help. Hopefully.

What say ye? St. Crispian's Day! Once more into the breach! Was it over when the Germans
bombed Pearl Harbor? Forth Erolingas! We CAN handle the truth! FREEDOM! Carpe Diem!
It is not this day! Charge!

 

[tracyandalex]

@ryguy, I have to agree with you about DVCers being the big losers here. We have a couple really good friends who bought in & I often feel terribly for them. I can't imagine the frustration. Call me a big flamin' b*tch, but my thoughts of pity for them are always closely followed by absolute relief that we DIDN'T commit to WDW/DVC. At this point I would be beyond livid. The neglect throughout the property is shameful from a taking-pride-in-keeping-your-house standpoint. But when you sell the dream and promises to millions of people you now have a responsibility to them that goes beyond just you. I remember the part of the pitch that was "faith in the quality because it's Disney". Yeah, someone should remind TDO of those standards....with a very big stick. LOL!

@sweetpee_1993 sadly you are correct. I also have not bought DVC (mostly cause we're Florida residents) and have not regretted it. When I look at the quality on DCL vs WDW is makes me sad. On DCL I feel like we do get what we pay the higher price for, but at WDW not so much. Here's to hoping WDW will some day soon return to it's higher standards that most of hte rest of the company stills seemed to retain.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

What say ye? St. Crispian's Day! Once more into the breach! Was it over when the Germans
bombed Pearl Harbor? Forth Erolingas! We CAN handle the truth! FREEDOM! Carpe Diem!
It is not this day! Charge!

I love this. You had me with the Animal House plug.

Not sure what the voice could be but a call to arms to make things right and clean up the slop that which has become of our happy place is definitely something I'd bring my pistols to battle with my fellow Mousey Militia brothers and sisters to accomplish. Like I tell my boys, it's not the mistakes made that define you. It's what you do with the mistakes that does. We need to thump some skulls and get that message to the TDO flunkies. Make it right! We need Mike Holmes!!!!

 

[SirLink]

I agree it needs to be a cross-site initiative.

Imagine if a lot of the major fan sites all posted something on the same day!
Or if all of them had a section devoted to these issues.

It's a unity thing. I can see it. I just don't have the ability to do it. Who does?

Here's the fear, though--it somewhat does need to be moderated/controlled. Otherwise, it won't
be taken seriously. We can't mix in petitions to "bring back that Ron guy as Dreamfinder" or
kick Starbucks out, or "rebuild Horizons" with serious, real-world concerns. It has to be sober,
adult, and reasonable. (sorry to any of you for whom those are pet issues, but I think this needs
to be bigger picture. I'll put aside my unatural desire to see 'veggie, fruit, fruit' again, if you'll
put yours aside.)

This can be a thing. We need to figure out how to do it, though. I don't have the connections
to try something like this, but behind the scenes, through email and PM's, someone does.

Coordinate. One mature, reasoned voice. LARGE. Could do something. Could help. Hopefully.

What say ye? St. Crispian's Day! Once more into the breach! Was it over when the Germans
bombed Pearl Harbor? Forth Erolingas! We CAN handle the truth! FREEDOM! Carpe Diem!
It is not this day! Charge!

Exactly.

 

[ScoutN]

One could argue that DVC plays a role with TDO decision making. Basically you have a large group of visitors who you know will be coming every year and you already have there money. I know since the inception of DVC the parks attendance has been more spread out and attendance up. There is no real slow season anymore like the old days. I think DCV plays a factor in that. Truthfully DVC members should be the most upset; they have laid out a huge chunk of change and are not getting much in return.

@ryguy, I have to agree with you about DVCers being the big losers here. We have a couple really good friends who bought in & I often feel terribly for them. I can't imagine the frustration. Call me a big flamin' b*tch, but my thoughts of pity for them are always closely followed by absolute relief that we DIDN'T commit to WDW/DVC. At this point I would be beyond livid. The neglect throughout the property is shameful from a taking-pride-in-keeping-your-house standpoint. But when you sell the dream and promises to millions of people you now have a responsibility to them that goes beyond just you. I remember the part of the pitch that was "faith in the quality because it's Disney". Yeah, someone should remind TDO of those standards....with a very big stick. LOL!

This is all very well and true but as I have been saying for over a year now WDW has injured itself with DVC. DVC Members realize that the parks are very stale and DVC/WDW itself has recognized it. As a DVC Member it does not overly hurt me that the parks have gotten stale. I can use my membership for great accommodation while visits the SEA parks and Uni. For a nearly week long trip in August no one in my family but one member (who had leftover tickets) stepped foot in a DIS park. It was solely SEA parks and KSC.
DVC obviously recognizes that it has a serious issue with DVC members not visiting DIS parks. They are only offer the Premium AP for $399 to DVC Members. If DVC members were not visiting UNI/SEA offerings they would not be offering up the AP at that rate. Each trip I meet more members that are spending more days off DIS property than on. I am more than likely using mine in Feb for SpeedWeeks/Daytona 500 with maybe one of five days in a DIS park depending on who goes.
DVC, the big strength WDW has relied on is and will be a TKO to guest attendance. DVC Members are not idiots and know that they are not locked into ONLY visiting one of the four. They are and will visit other offerings at higher rates than a DIS park. APs for Uni and SEA can be had at no more than the cost of three days at Disney. Obtaining APs elsewhere is a better for DVC Members and the members realize it.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

This is all very well and true but as I have been saying for over a year now WDW has injured itself with DVC. DVC Members realize that the parks are very stale and DVC/WDW itself has recognized it. As a DVC Member it does not overly hurt me that the parks have gotten stale. I can use my membership for great accommodation while visits the SEA parks and Uni. For a nearly week long trip in August no one in my family but one member (who had leftover tickets) stepped foot in a DIS park. It was solely SEA parks and KSC.
DVC obviously recognizes that it has a serious issue with DVC members not visiting DIS parks. They are only offer the Premium AP for $399 to DVC Members. If DVC members were not visiting UNI/SEA offerings they would not be offering up the AP at that rate. Each trip I meet more members that are spending more days off DIS property than on. I am more than likely using mine in Feb for SpeedWeeks/Daytona 500 with maybe one of five days in a DIS park depending on who goes.
DVC, the big strength WDW has relied on is and will be a TKO to guest attendance. DVC Members are not idiots and know that they are not locked into ONLY visiting one of the four. They are and will visit other offerings at higher rates than a DIS park. APs for Uni and SEA can be had at no more than the cost of three days at Disney. Obtaining APs elsewhere is a better for DVC Members and the members realize it.

Wasn't trying to be insulting in any way so I hope you didn't take it that way. I realize DVCers have the option of just staying at their resort but not visiting the 4 parks. Plus, DVCers can rent out their points or bank them. No doubt. There's ways to avoid letting the mouse into your pockets anymore than he has already. But, for me, I'd be looking at the premium I paid to buy Disney over buying at other beautiful resorts in the same area. If all I was doing was using my DVC points for a place to lay my head while I visit other Orlando area attractions I might be slapping my forehead knowing I coulda bought twice as much time at a RCI timeshare for the same money. Or, I'd be questioning the return on my investment because staying at far more luxurious accommodations in the area isn't as expensive as staying in a Disney deluxe resort by a significant margin. Ya know? I'm such a stickler for every nickel which is what kept me from giving the green light to the old man who would've gladly plunked down the $$ for the points years ago. I always put it off because I had an uneasy feeling about the commitment. Now, I'm absolutely delighted I trusted my intuition because I'd be another person trying to dump my points on the resale market and likely taking a loss.

 

[Funmeister]

The change really took affect in 1995. All Cast Members were brought into mandatory "change" meeting/seminars at the AMC movie theaters at Pleasure Island and the convention center at the Contemporary. Disney outsourced a PR firm to come in and give us a long drawn out story about Pete the parakeet and Vinny the vulture. Basically the story suggested that if Pete and Vinny traded places from the lush jungle to the barren desert (and vice versa), they would die because they could not change and adapt to their new environments. The story literally took 15 to 20 minutes and was painfully drawn out. At the end, the representative said "The lesson of this story is that if you do not change you will die. Ladies and gentlemen Walt Disney is dead. "Change" is the only way to survive in this marketplace and if you do not like it there is the door. No questions will be answered at this time. Have a great day!" At that point everyone in the auditorium was shocked and very confused and were ushered out for the next group to come in for thier presentation.

It felt like we were all punched in the stomach. The company later realized this was probably not the best way they could have communicated this message. To this day there are some execs and "lifers" who deny that those meetings actually even happend. Well, they did! Since that day I have seen a slow declining trend that has gained momentum in recent years.

 

[FrankLapidus]

I am positive right now about the direction of much of TWDC and much of P&R. WDW is improving in some micro areas.

I think it really is only a matter of time before things get drastically improved if only because Disney will simply have no choice. The Exec 'Leadership' Team still thinks it knows all and that FLE, Pandora, DDP, DVC and NEXT GEN are all they need to compete ... and they're going to get a nasty wakeup call. The question then will be whether they can fast track projects in FL the way UNI can or they are going to attempt in Anaheim.

How much worse can things get before we start to see such improvement? I'm someone who tries to remain optimistic and look for the positives but a "value engineered" Cars Land resembling what has been discussed in this thread would be nothing short of an abject embarrassment in light of what was achieved at DCA's Cars Land. If TDO and the powers-that-be in Burbank are only interested in the cheapest option possible and in taking every creative shortcut they can find then I would rather they not build Cars Land at WDW and leave in place the Backlot Tour that has been eroded of all quality. Cardboard cut-out dioramas instead of the immaculate rockword at DCA would really be a new low for WDW and if it does happen and I were involved with it, I would be embarrassed that creativity at Disney's American theme parks only seems to exist on the West Coast.

 

[ScoutN]

Wasn't trying to be insulting in any way so I hope you didn't take it that way. I realize DVCers have the option of just staying at their resort but not visiting the 4 parks. Plus, DVCers can rent out their points or bank them. No doubt. There's ways to avoid letting the mouse into your pockets anymore than he has already. But, for me, I'd be looking at the premium I paid to buy Disney over buying at other beautiful resorts in the same area. If all I was doing was using my DVC points for a place to lay my head while I visit other Orlando area attractions I might be slapping my forehead knowing I coulda bought twice as much time at a RCI timeshare for the same money. Or, I'd be questioning the return on my investment because staying at far more luxurious accommodations in the area isn't as expensive as staying in a Disney deluxe resort by a significant margin. Ya know? I'm such a stickler for every nickel which is what kept me from giving the green light to the old man who would've gladly plunked down the $$ for the points years ago. I always put it off because I had an uneasy feeling about the commitment. Now, I'm absolutely delighted I trusted my intuition because I'd be another person trying to dump my points on the resale market and likely taking a loss.

No I did not see it as insulting in the slightest bit. I realize that there are other offerings in the area in the way of timeshares but I was also looking at the long term. WDW cannot stay in the rut that it is in. Something will change even if it is far distance. I was able to get an EXCELLENT per point over what I could elsewhere... or ones that are not practically giving them away just to cover dues. I do not feel secure knowing a company cannot sell them so they give them away in a sense. Eventually I WILL hopefully have the unfortunate event of having kids which would equal Disney vacations whether west or east coast. People I am friend with who have RCI have a very difficult time getting a Disney reservation through the exchange. Disney also offers the shuttle to the resort which allows for cheaper non airport car rentals. RCI exchange point rate in Cali are cheaper than point coast at Grand and the same goes for Hawaii. The options are plenty fine for me to not feel bad.

I am one of the few who does not have resale in mind. Paying up front at a VERY low cost per point and AD being paid monthly has made it very affordable for me. I certainly am using it for off Disney interests though. My father is the same way who obtained his at a VERY low rate as well. I prefer to use them for off property interest for myself over renting to someone who will stay onsite My post was solely to aim that a good portion of DVC Members are seeing the stagnant nature like the last loaf of molded WonderBread that is doomed to stale and rot. That DVC can fudge the bottom line through sales but is not sustainable past the first few years of one's membership in the program.

 

[HenryMystic]

From @WDW1974 's old pal Lee MacDonald

So a colleague of mine had a cold call from the group chief executive and MD from Accenture who are the IT developers for the NGE program (they have basically done everything from the consulting piece when the program was being scoped out to the technology development). They wanted to pitch a specific tech piece to him.

Long story short - the Accenture reps told them that the NGE budget has now passed $1bn and is heading towards $1.5bn or higher. My colleagues' jaws were on the floor by that time.

That is more money than WDP&R has spent on any single theme park on opening. More than the DCA makeover (just) and more than either the Dream or Fantasy.

I'd love to get a hold of the business plan that underpins this spend. WDW Co. have put a lot of their eggs in that NGE basket.

<<Success or failure? I can't even explain what NGE is in 25 words or less!>>

I can: Prioritizing resort guests to detriment of off-site and local guests by upselling to a "premium" experience that was previously free

That was 21.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

No I did not see it as insulting in the slightest bit. I realize that there are other offerings in the area in the way of timeshares but I was also looking at the long term. WDW cannot stay in the rut that it is in. Something will change even if it is far distance. I was able to get an EXCELLENT per point over what I could elsewhere... or ones that are not practically giving them away just to cover dues. I do not feel secure knowing a company cannot sell them so they give them away in a sense. Eventually I WILL hopefully have the unfortunate event of having kids which would equal Disney vacations whether west or east coast. People I am friend with who have RCI have a very difficult time getting a Disney reservation through the exchange. Disney also offers the shuttle to the resort which allows for cheaper non airport car rentals. RCI exchange point rate in Cali are cheaper than point coast at Grand and the same goes for Hawaii. The options are plenty fine for me to not feel bad.

I am one of the few who does not have resale in mind. Paying up front at a VERY low cost per point and AD being paid monthly has made it very affordable for me. I certainly am using it for off Disney interests though. My father is the same way who obtained his at a VERY low rate as well. I prefer to use them for off property interest for myself over renting to someone who will stay onsite My post was solely to aim that a good portion of DVC Members are seeing the stagnant nature like the last loaf of molded WonderBread that is doomed to stale and rot. That DVC can fudge the bottom line through sales but is not sustainable past the first few years of one's membership in the program.

Gotcha! I'm not the biggest proponent of timeshares anywhere after seeing how much of a PITA the entire thing ended up being for my grandparents a decade or so ago. Not Disney but it's created an overall distrust for me. I can't predict where my interests will lie 10, 20 years from now. Don't feel okay committing that way to anyone.

I definitely get where your post was going with DVCers changing the way they choose to spend their stays. I'm actually glad to hear it. One of our friends back in Louisiana is still just as ducky as ever with going to the parks and relaxing. Not commandos by far. Attractions are like a side-show to them so they don't particularly care about the depletion in show where some of the biggest wow's used to be. They kinda shake their head at my disdain as I'm shaking my head at their aloofness to it all. It's mutual. I wondered if other DVCers who were sticking with their purchases are as these friends of ours are or if there were some who were more like we are: turned off by what we see & experience thus changing their vacation choices. If you are experiencing more and more using their points for a place to stay while doing mostly off-property activities then I'd say that's significant.

 

[SirLink]

From @WDW1974 's old pal Lee MacDonald

Excellent so who yells 'Your Fired' to all of TDO when they end up with egg on their face. That could be part of the limited time magic special moments.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

@HenryMystic, wow. Just wow. $1.5 billion. That. is. so. effing. sad. Think of what that kind of investment could do if utilized to bring all the little inadequacies up to snuff property-wide. Think of the brilliance that could be bestowed upon attractions that are dangling by their last little pale-grey threads. Okay, I'm getting off the computer to go cry now and vent my frustrations on housework....

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Excellent so who yells 'Your Fired' to all of TDO when they end up with egg on their face. That could be part of the limited time magic special moments.

I would eat crow and plan a trip for this show.

 

[ScoutN]

Gotcha! I'm not the biggest proponent of timeshares anywhere after seeing how much of a PITA the entire thing ended up being for my grandparents a decade or so ago. Not Disney but it's created an overall distrust for me. I can't predict where my interests will lie 10, 20 years from now. Don't feel okay committing that way to anyone.

I definitely get where your post was going with DVCers changing the way they choose to spend their stays. I'm actually glad to hear it. One of our friends back in Louisiana is still just as ducky as ever with going to the parks and relaxing. Not commandos by far. Attractions are like a side-show to them so they don't particularly care about the depletion in show where some of the biggest wow's used to be. They kinda shake their head at my disdain as I'm shaking my head at their aloofness to it all. It's mutual. I wondered if other DVCers who were sticking with their purchases are as these friends of ours are or if there were some who were more like we are: turned off by what we see & experience thus changing their vacation choices. If you are experiencing more and more using their points for a place to stay while doing mostly off-property activities then I'd say that's significant.

It boils down to what Spirit, Lee, Marni, and others have been saying for years. People will continue to open their eyes to outstanding offerings off Disney's property. The foolproof plan of DVC to lock people into Disney vacations is failing as Uni/SWF/BGT keep plussing their offerings with no fear of dollar and appealing to those who are somewhat locked into regular visits. $399 for a regular AP!!! That just wreaks of people going off prop.

 

[DocMcHulk]

Excellent so who yells 'Your Fired' to all of TDO when they end up with egg on their face. That could be part of the limited time magic special moments.

That would be the best limited time magic ever!