Nothing Goofy about Disney park moves

[jlsHouston]

I feel like some people are missing the point about what should be the debate here about TWDC and specifically WDW. Nobody is arguing the parks aren't packed. In fact I think we would all agree they are over packed. Nobody is arguing that the brand is loved universally to the point that people come from all over for some of that Disney magic. And that magic has been going on since the 70's so we have a generation or two of families that share a love of WDW. And just because TWDC stock has been a darling of Wall Street now for several years does not mean that love affair is going to continue.
The discussion is about choices the leadership has made the past 10 years in the parks and to some extent the resorts, and what the future holds for these beloved parks under the current and future management.
Numbers paint a big part of the picture here and there are numbers that are pointing to the fact that the margins that WDW has enjoyed in the past have eroded.
Refusing to look at the P/L numbers, margins, occupancy levels because Soarin, TSMM and Peter Pan have 90 minute waits every day all day long is kind of short sighted. If you consider yourself "Pro Disney" at all, then I would think you would look at the entire picture before dismissing concerns about the state of parks and their future.
WDW is overdue a new land. Not a refurb or remodel but a new land. Avatar is going to happen none too soon, hopefully. Now that I have had the good fortune to visit several times the past couple of years, I honestly don't understand why TWDC hasn't taken some of those millions they are raking in quarterly and put Star Wars at HS in a BIG WAY. Maybe because I am not smart enough to run a billion dollar a year entertainment company is why I don't understand.
Anyways, there are issues at WDW due to age, and CM morale, and the way projects have rolled out and the choices of what projects are getting funded at what rate and order. It doesn't matter if the stock is $ 200 a share or $ 2 bucks a share trash floating in the waters is still trash. I mean that literally. I couldn't believe the trash in the water over by TT when I visited a week ago.
And if I didn't love vacationing at WDW it wouldn't bother me. It could be Love Canal. Call me names, ridicule or tell me I am wrong, but I have eyes and I know what I see.

 

[flavious27]

Oranges
...that is why I liked Horizons.

Orange you said? Now this is what you call disney taking a pass on an attraction.

 

[BigTxEars]

I feel like some people are missing the point about what should be the debate here about TWDC and specifically WDW. Nobody is arguing the parks aren't packed. In fact I think we would all agree they are over packed. Nobody is arguing that the brand is loved universally to the point that people come from all over for some of that Disney magic. And that magic has been going on since the 70's so we have a generation or two of families that share a love of WDW. And just because TWDC stock has been a darling of Wall Street now for several years does not mean that love affair is going to continue.
The discussion is about choices the leadership has made the past 10 years in the parks and to some extent the resorts, and what the future holds for these beloved parks under the current and future management.
Numbers paint a big part of the picture here and there are numbers that are pointing to the fact that the margins that WDW has enjoyed in the past have eroded.
Refusing to look at the P/L numbers, margins, occupancy levels because Soarin, TSMM and Peter Pan have 90 minute waits every day all day long is kind of short sighted. If you consider yourself "Pro Disney" at all, then I would think you would look at the entire picture before dismissing concerns about the state of parks and their future.
WDW is overdue a new land. Not a refurb or remodel but a new land. Avatar is going to happen none too soon, hopefully. Now that I have had the good fortune to visit several times the past couple of years, I honestly don't understand why TWDC hasn't taken some of those millions they are raking in quarterly and put Star Wars at HS in a BIG WAY. Maybe because I am not smart enough to run a billion dollar a year entertainment company is why I don't understand.
Anyways, there are issues at WDW due to age, and CM morale, and the way projects have rolled out and the choices of what projects are getting funded at what rate and order. It doesn't matter if the stock is $ 200 a share or $ 2 bucks a share trash floating in the waters is still trash. I mean that literally. I couldn't believe the trash in the water over by TT when I visited a week ago.
And if I didn't love vacationing at WDW it wouldn't bother me. It could be Love Canal. Call me names, ridicule or tell me I am wrong, but I have eyes and I know what I see.

If you enjoy the parks then keep going, if you somewhat enjoy the parks then decide rather you want to keep going or not. If you don't enjoy the parks stop going. It the same at any business you go to. Go or don't go it's up to you. Even more so at WDW, a local grocery store might be your only close choice for food (we only have one in our town) so you might have little choice on a Tuesday night at 9pm where to go. But WDW is not a only choice destination is any way shape or form. We all have the full choice if we go or not.

I enjoy the parks, my family enjoys the parks. We will be there in 69 days, and then again yearly until at least 2054 when our DVC expires.

I for one am down debating this, it's of no use to go back and forth with the same points anymore.

 

[CDavid]

"You see, people on Wall Street who make their livings investing actually care about stuff like gross margins and occupancy rates. They don't spend a lot of time watching "paying bodies thru the gate, in the beds and in the restaurants seats"."

Uh huh....well here is a number fer ya....

Disney stock price : $80.35
1 Year ago: $55.00
5 Years ago : $24.00

See a trend?

Yeah those Wall Street types are dumping Disney in droves huh? I mean it clearly shows those fools at Disney have no ideal how to run their business.....

Are you really trying to convince anyone one that WDW is hurting for customers?

Orlando Sentinel 02/05/14
"Burbank, Calif.-based Disney said it earned more than $1.8 billion during the first quarter of its fiscal year. That was up from a little less than $1.4 billion a year earlier. All of the company's major business segments — theme parks, television networks, movies, consumer products and digital media — posted double-digit growth."

"At Disney's theme-parks-and-resorts division, operating profit jumped 16 percent to $671 million. Revenue rose 6 percent to $3.6 billion."

Themepark Insider 02/06/14
"The Walt Disney Company reported this week that it's taking in more than a billion dollars a month from its theme parks, for more than $600 million in profits for the first three months of the company's current fiscal year. Disney reported record attendance at Walt Disney World, Tokyo Disney and Hong Kong Disneyland, offsetting attendance dips at Disneyland and Disneyland Paris."

Yeah just a billion a month form the parks.....no doubt they are about to have to close the

Nobody is arguing that the stock price isn't up. Nobody is arguing that company income (and parks & resorts income) isn't up or that attendance isn't solid at the Magic Kingdom. You are debating points which aren't in contention.

What @ParentsOf4 is saying is that Walt Disney World has record numbers of empty hotel rooms, and that parks & resorts gross margin is lower than it was following the 2001 terrrorist attacks. Income is up, but that's after hefty price increases. This is from publicly available information.

Are you suggesting any of this isn't accurate?

 

[jlsHouston]

OMG...it's not a debate about vacation choices. The thread title and original OP set this up to discuss the investment TWDC has made in the parks since the recession. If it has been enough or too little. If it has been in areas that will return substantial ROA and ROI for parks and resorts.
I guess I am the hard head here kicking the dead horse but I wondering why one can't love Disney and still have and express concerns about the companie's operational choices and direction.

 

[mm121]

Those numbers sound like a significant investment when you don't know the details of how that money was spent. It sure sounds like there should be multiple new experiences in every park, with everything fresh and well maintained. Instead we have stale parks with declining standards of maintenance and upkeep.

Sure, we got a "new" Fantasyland (a net gain of zero additional attractions from Fantasyland of 20 years ago) with two new rides and - four years later - we'll see two more attractions in Animal Kingdom. That's basically it for four WDW theme parks - and that is supposed to represent massive investment?

Instead of vibrant parks full of new attractions - what "bold investment" should produce - Disney in Florida reaps the benefits of that "investment" by cheapening the guest experience while increasing prices beyond the merely ridiculous. Oh, and squandering investment dollars on colored bracelets for the guests.

Would the investors be as pleased if they fully knew what was propping up the house of cards?

Can we get a break down of what you mean by "a net gain of zero attraction" especially what was removed?

i do definitely agre that massive investment should result in additional attractions, not simply replaced attractions, or cloned attractions as the littler mermade is a clone from disney california

If you increase your price and build nothing exciting for an extended period of time, I will bash. If you don't maintain the standard you set for yourself and let your product fall apart, I will bash. If you don't pay enough for the best customer service, which you once prided yourself on, I will bash.

it would definitely be nice to see additional attractions for the increased price, not replaced attractions and reductions in entertainment... its also crazy that they increased the parks prices again this year a few months earlier than normal, despite the fact that MK is a huge mess.

I'll just point out that "stale" is a judgement that is in the eye of the beholder. I know a number of folks who have gone to Disney in the past year or so that have had a great time and thought there was a lot of (too much?) interesting stuff to do. On these boards, we tend to have a bit of an echo chamber of folks who are or have been frequent visitors to the parks and judge them differently than folks who only go every few years.

i would never say theres too much, as if there was too much then there would be NO LONG LINES ANYWHERE.. as long as any attraction has a line thats 2 plus hours long then theres not enough.

and the 4 hour waits for meet n greets are outragious!!

But most of them also don't set foot in many (if any) amusement or theme parks very often without an entourage and VIP access, and as such wouldn't see or notice most of the issues that regular guests would notice and see, especially if they're (regular guests) knowledgeable about the subject. They have no reason to care, especially if the stock is performing well and the immediate numbers are fine. The few big sharks that may be interested in their investment 20 years from now likely are temporarily blinded by immediate numbers and/or have no desire to dive into the details of a theme park. This is the fundamental problem. The large investors have no care for the parks themselves, or even the movie or TV aspects of the company, and won't ask questions if the numbers don't give them reason to. The folks at the top of the company also appear to have no care for visiting the parks like a regular guest, and end up taking the same view as the major investors.

thats definitely true!! the mega rich never get a real experience

they buy the vip tour.. if i ever win the lotto i so will to.. it would be awesome to be able to do anything you want when you want. not to mention the entorage cool factor.. lol

found this article that talks about the vip tours.
Luxury Disney World: What VIP Tour Services Offer and How Much They Cost

 

[mm121]

Not at all. The parks are very profitable, and shareholders are very happy.

its ashame theyve gone to only care about profit and not the guest.. if they reinvested more of the massive profits rather than continuing to raise prices and adding a "net" zero attractions the parks would be amazing

....at the expense of guests, specifically hard core Disney folk..

The bulk of guests want E-ticket attractions. In the last decade, MK has seen 0 and the other three parks have seen one each. Those are unexaggerated facts.

yes more real attractions E tickets especially are needed to spread the huge crowds out.. whoever comes up with the park "maximum occupancy" numbers obviously has never set foot inside a theme park at anywhere close to those numbers.

or they just need to not let so many people in, but despite what some say that orlando can't support another gate, thats obviously not true.

Uni would build one in a heartbeat if they can find a solution to their land crunch problem.

 

[DisneyGentleman]

Orange you said? Now this is what you call disney taking a pass on an attraction.

Well yeah, they took a pass on an entire park.

What an awful place it was, and what a wonderful place it is today.

 

[Andrew C]

OMG...it's not a debate about vacation choices. The thread title and original OP set this up to discuss the investment TWDC has made in the parks since the recession. If it has been enough or too little. If it has been in areas that will return substantial ROA and ROI for parks and resorts.
I guess I am the hard head here kicking the dead horse but I wondering why one can't love Disney and still have and express concerns about the companie's operational choices and direction.

You can. You can definitely love Disney and still express concerns. I do. And I do enjoy reading others concerns to a certain extent. The problem is when others try to make you feel like an idiot or not worthy if you do not agree with every concern they express. Also, without naming any names, expressing concerns and making negative comments about Disney non-stop on this board gets old. It is one thing to contribute to this board with advice, concerns, trip reports, etc. etc. That is why I like to read the boards. But when a poster turns every thread into a way to bash Disney about something else, it gets annoying. It's "blah blah bah, what was Disney thinking, blah blah blah" from some posters; same story all day long.

 

[BigTxEars]

They cer

OMG...it's not a debate about vacation choices. The thread title and original OP set this up to discuss the investment TWDC has made in the parks since the recession. If it has been enough or too little. If it has been in areas that will return substantial ROA and ROI for parks and resorts.
I guess I am the hard head here kicking the dead horse but I wondering why one can't love Disney and still have and express concerns about the companie's operational choices and direction.

thinly can be when folsk on here start saying that those who enjoy WDW

When people on a WDW fan forum post the following type comments :

1. If you enjoy WDW now you must be snorting pixie dust or looking thru rose colored glasses
2. That they do not like when other enjoy their trips to WDW because it only encourages WDW to continue to be run in a way they do not approve of
3. That the number clearly show that WDW is not being run well from a business perspective.
4. That WDW treats some of it's CMs like slaves

Then yeah expect that these points are countered by others. All of these comments above are on this very thread. Again posting them on a forum called WDWMagic might just get a reply or two......

And yeah it is about vacation choice at the end of the day. The service provided by WDW is 100% a luxury in anyones life, no needed in any way shape or form for survival. If you don't like it and don't want to go anymore then fine move along. But if you are go to try and push your negative views on others on a fan forum then expect some push back. No one is saying there are not things to be critical of at WDW, nor that those things should not be posted. But to expect no response but "yeah your right" is foolish.

 

[ford91exploder]

I've switched to pixie fluffler because its way more appropriate and less at the same time.

You DO know what a fluffer is

 

[ford91exploder]

A replica of other Sim ride is kind of belittling it a touch. There are sustained g forces on that attraction. As far as I know, zero other simulators offer this. It was a bit more innovative than you're willing to give it credit for. Now if you ask me I dont need to ride it and I don't think it touches actual attractions like mummy or potter or even everest in A mode, but it is much more than just an actuated platform and a projection screen.

Yes there are other simulators which offer sustained G forces, But you have to be an Astronaut or an Air Force officer to experience them. So yeah I'd say MS is pretty much unique, That being said I wish M:S had been added to an updated Horizons for the start of an updated SPACE pavillion.

 

[ford91exploder]

That was something developed AFTER the ride had already been opened for awhile though.

And that takes away from the effect how???, Industrial control systems do advance with time and become usable at theme parks because of demonstrated reliability.

 

[jlsHouston]

They cer

thinly can be when folsk on here start saying that those who enjoy WDW

When people on a WDW fan forum post the following type comments :

1. If you enjoy WDW now you must be snorting pixie dust or looking thru rose colored glasses
2. That they do not like when other enjoy their trips to WDW because it only encourages WDW to continue to be run in a way they do not approve of
3. That the number clearly show that WDW is not being run well from a business perspective.
4. That WDW treats some of it's CMs like slaves

Then yeah expect that these points are countered by others. All of these comments above are on this very thread. Again posting them on a forum called WDWMagic might just get a reply or two......

And yeah it is about vacation choice at the end of the day. The service provided by WDW is 100% a luxury in anyones life, no needed in any way shape or form for survival. If you don't like it and don't want to go anymore then fine move along. But if you are go to try and push your negative views on others on a fan forum then expect some push back. No one is saying there are not things to be critical of at WDW, nor that those things should not be posted. But to expect no response but "yeah your right" is foolish.

Okay I am foolish. And you are the pot calling the kettle black. Your tone and rants are in the same category of your above list.

 

[ford91exploder]

"You see, people on Wall Street who make their livings investing actually care about stuff like gross margins and occupancy rates. They don't spend a lot of time watching "paying bodies thru the gate, in the beds and in the restaurants seats"."

Uh huh....well here is a number fer ya....

Disney stock price : $80.35
1 Year ago: $55.00
5 Years ago : $24.00

See a trend?

Yeah those Wall Street types are dumping Disney in droves huh? I mean it clearly shows those fools at Disney have no ideal how to run their business.....

Are you really trying to convince anyone one that WDW is hurting for customers?

Orlando Sentinel 02/05/14
"Burbank, Calif.-based Disney said it earned more than $1.8 billion during the first quarter of its fiscal year. That was up from a little less than $1.4 billion a year earlier. All of the company's major business segments — theme parks, television networks, movies, consumer products and digital media — posted double-digit growth."

"At Disney's theme-parks-and-resorts division, operating profit jumped 16 percent to $671 million. Revenue rose 6 percent to $3.6 billion."

Themepark Insider 02/06/14
"The Walt Disney Company reported this week that it's taking in more than a billion dollars a month from its theme parks, for more than $600 million in profits for the first three months of the company's current fiscal year. Disney reported record attendance at Walt Disney World, Tokyo Disney and Hong Kong Disneyland, offsetting attendance dips at Disneyland and Disneyland Paris."

Yeah just a billion a month form the parks.....no doubt they are about to have to close the

I suggest you stop looking at Gross revenues and look at actual returns on a dollar invested, In the past Disney was AVERAGING 24% ROI in the late 90's and early noughts. Now they are at 15.1% Check out @ParentsOf4 for the detailed analysis.

 

[ford91exploder]

OMG...it's not a debate about vacation choices. The thread title and original OP set this up to discuss the investment TWDC has made in the parks since the recession. If it has been enough or too little. If it has been in areas that will return substantial ROA and ROI for parks and resorts.
I guess I am the hard head here kicking the dead horse but I wondering why one can't love Disney and still have and express concerns about the companie's operational choices and direction.

Because the 'Duster/Fluffer' community thinks that anything other than unquestioning acceptance of TWDC's choices is an attack on Disney and by extension themselves.

I do like the term Fluffer since its so wildly inappropriate for DIsney.

 

[TubaGeek]

Your bitter, that is as apparent as the sun in the noon sky in Arizona. If you want to spend you time on a forum based a a place you all but hate now then go ahead. You are not going to find a spark of anything with your mindset, you are not really looking IMO, just waiting around for yet one more chance to post something negative.

Poor CMs, asked for a job and got it. How evil of Disney. Slave labor? Now WDW is nothing more than a plantation in your mind? Amazing, what exactly is so slave like about working at WDW? Please I just gotta hear this......

I know a few things about Star Wars land and another expansion at DHS that haven't become public knowledge yet that I'm quite excited for. Just because I'm not singing Disney's praises now doesn't mean there aren't things that I'm excited for.
As for working at Disney, take a gander at http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/workers-want-pay-boost.880782/. I'm sure there's plenty of info there, but I'm not doing your research for you.

I really have to ask, how many multimillion dollar theme parks have you run? If you have run some, then you are fully qualified to make all of your statements. Otherwise, they are not statements but your opinions. You are fully welcome to have them but just because someone has an opinion doesn't make the opinion right. All the opinions are equally valid because they are just opinions. None of us have the facts that lead to the various decisions so we are all just having opinions.

Me, I've been going to Disney parks since 1957. I can see the issues that are there now but also saw the problems that existed when Walt was still running DL. He made lots of mistakes at DL and there were maintenance problems and issues, rides that had to be removed due poor design and concept and, well really everything people complain about today. You should have been around to see the anger about the ticket books, a lot like the complaints for FP+. Nothing new really to have problems now.

Well, at least it's a founded opinion.
.

And that takes away from the effect how???, Industrial control systems do advance with time and become usable at theme parks because of demonstrated reliability.

Yes, but people were praising the innovation of the ride long before the change came into effect.

 

[BigTxEars]

I suggest you stop looking at Gross revenues and look at actual returns on a dollar invested, In the past Disney was AVERAGING 24% ROI in the late 90's and early noughts. Now they are at 15.1% Check out @ParentsOf4 for the detailed analysis.

Where oh where did I ever mention ROI? I did not is the answer, never came up in a single post of mine. I was responding to the "point" that Disney was losing turns at the gate due to the way the parks were being run. They are not in fact. ROI is a ever changing beast in business, changes year to year based on a huge number of factors, no different at Disney that at any other company.

If your are going to compare ROI from over a decade ago then all of those factors come into play. But if the cries from some on here are to be heard then turns at the gate are up, prices are up and investment back into the parks is down, if that was the case it seems ROI would be way up. So where is the disconnect to the math?

 

[BigTxEars]

Okay I am foolish. And you are the pot calling the kettle black. Your tone and rants are in the same category of your above list.

Yep we give what we get in Texas. You come out swinging verbally with that mess expect to get it back in kind. Now by "you" I am not referring to you but you get the ideal of what I mean.

I mean come on, slave like treatment of CMs, I don't want others to have a good time at WDW because I don't, if you enjoy yourself at WDW it's just because your to ignorant to know better......if that's not trying to pick forum fight what is? I tried not to aim my comments towards anybody who did not post such nonsense as I listed in my previous post, if I ended up doing so I am sorry. But to those who posted that mess I said exactly what I wanted to say.

 

[jlsHouston]

Yep we give what we get in Texas. You come out swinging verbally with that mess expect to get it back in kind. Now by "you" I am not referring to you but you get the ideal of what I mean.

I mean come on, slave like treatment of CMs, I don't want others to have a good time at WDW because I don't, if you enjoy yourself at WDW it's just because your to ignorant to know better......if that's not trying to pick forum fight what is? I tried not to aim my comments towards anybody who did not post such nonsense as I listed in my previous post, if I ended up doing so I am sorry. But to those who posted that mess I said exactly what I wanted to say.

Uh huh.