New Maps for All Stars with smoking sections!

UncleJeet

New Member
Uhhh... I think you might be missing something, here. It's not that we "don't like it" It's the fact that it uh... kills us, maybe? Whining children and nasty stench won't kill us, and we can put up with that, but if there's a person smoking in front of or somewhere around us, and they refuse to put out their cigarette (because their cigarette isn't a person like a baby or a stinky person is, so they have a choice, there) for common courtesy's sake, then people are actually getting hurt by it. I'm an asthmatic who is also allergic to nicotine, and have swelled up before while being around a smoker long enough, and as I ran out of line to go into a clear area and use my medicine, the smoker watched me run away, still smoking their cigarette.

I swear I could have STRANGLED her while still swollen!

So though you think you've "hit the nail" and made a great post, really look what you've done: You've created a new argument.

Uhhhh, lots of uhhhs there. Anyway, I suggest that it is you, sir, who is "missing something" - such as the fact that I was not arguing in favor of people smoking outside of the designated areas. I suggest you read my message again and then comment, as you seem a bit confused. In addition, I believe you'll notice that it was someone else who made the nail hitting comment, so I fail to see its relevance to what I said.
 

mdisney

Active Member
I ask you, then, why is it unreasonable to allow smokers designated areas and rooms which contain the medically harmful smoke, but reasonable for someone else to wear their cologne, which can potentially harm anyone who gets near them?


Lets see smoke gets into things since it lingers a lot longer than the smell of cologne or perfume. Also cologne will not leave burn marks in sheets or carpet. Another this is cologne will not start a fire if the person wearing falls asleep.
 

PigletIsMyCat

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It's very simple: smokers are drug addicts.

Nicotine is a drug.

Cigarettes are merely a delivery system that large corporations have used, with the help and encouragement of the US Government (which loves big business), to create millions of drug addicts who MUST buy their products.

End of story.

All other discussions must stem from the fact that anyone writes anything in defense of smoking is writing from the position of a drug addict trying to defend their addiction.

Sorry, but I give no credence to anything drug addicts have to say about their rights.

I think smoking should be banned.

I don't want to hear about your right to be a drug addict.

First of all, while nicotine is a drug, it is a legal drug like alcohol and caffeine.

Secondly, there is a difference between physical dependance on a substance (ie: being dependant on nicotine and smoking cigarettes) and an actual addiction. I stated it in another thread on this same topic, and I'll state it again: if you would like to learn the difference between physical dependance and a psychologial addiction, PM me and I'll be more than happy to explain it to you. Not all cigarette smokers are drug addicts.

Thirdly, drug addicts to still have rights, the same rights granted to every human citizen of this country. Some drug addicts are still highly productive members of society and are able to carry on conversations, contrary to your opinion.

So, your simplized statement that 'smokers are drug addicts' is incorrect based on scientific data. That is merely your opinion.
 

UncleJeet

New Member
Lets see smoke gets into things since it lingers a lot longer than the smell of cologne or perfume. Also cologne will not leave burn marks in sheets or carpet. Another this is cologne will not start a fire if the person wearing falls asleep.
Ok, all valid points. I guess you don't have any about smoking outdoors, but these are all good discussion points concerning smoking rooms. I will do my best to address them.

If they are smoking-allowed rooms, then only smokers are going to be in them. Smokers tend to be quite familiar and comfortable with the smell that smoking leaves behind, so let's disregard that and focus on your other points, which seem to all involve damage to the room.

Charge higher rates for smoking rooms. This will offset the cost of the occasional curtain replacement, or burn marked sheet, I would imagine. Of course, someone could come along and argue that kids can be very destructive to a room, as well. Everything from coloring on the walls to scratching the furniture, or even breaking things...but I don't think we should ban kids or charge extra for them. Rather, if a room is damaged at check-out, a fee should be assessed regardless of what caused that damage.

You last point, about the fire starting if a smoker falls asleep...there's not much I can say against that. Of course, they're more likely to burn themselves or at least notice that something is on fire before any significant damage is done, but there are always those cases of heavy drinkers, or what have you, who are too sedated to know that something is burning them. The only way to help combat that, though, would be to have full prohibition of alcohol and perhaps searches to discover and confiscate pharmaceuticals that could have such an effect.

Yes, I know I'm being absurd, but that's kind of the point.

I really think a higher rate for smoking rooms to offset regular maintenance, coupled with fees for any blatant damages (the burn marks, crayons on the walls, etc...) would cover most of your points. I could have just said that, I guess, but I'm trying to illustrate absurdity with absurdity.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
Wow, you eeeeeeviiiilllll smokers must really hate us non-smokers, huh? Must be jealous of our healthy pink lungs. :ROFLOL:

For the record, I don't hate smokers, but inconsiderate smokers tick me off, for sure. I've had people ask me if I wouldn't mind if they smoked around me, and depending on who I'm with and/or what I'm doing, I'm usually OK with it. I'm not around smoke all that much anymore, but can deal with it if it's not too strong. However, I wouldn't want to stay in a room that smelled of smoke. Someone else earlier in the thread asked why WDW couldn't leave a majority of rooms - 75% - smoke-free, and leave the rest for smokers. I could be wrong, but I remember reading/hearing that NINETY-SEVEN percent of the rooms were non-smoking, and the request for non-smoking rooms still exceeded the request for smoking rooms to the point where it wasn't economically viable to keep any smoking rooms.

Inconsiderate smokers, like inconsiderate people in general, are tremendouns pains in the junk. Someone who lights up in public who doesn't have the courtesy to look around, see if anyone might be bothered by it, practically using it as an excuse to be obnoxious, and provoke a reaction, are to me as annoying as the parent who won't try to quiet a child in a restaurant or take the child outside, or the cell phone in the movie theater or the dry-humping teens in line at Soarin or any where else annoying people congregate.

I've heard the sensitive schnozz/"perfume can be just as deadly as smoke to some people" arguments. All I can say is, if you think it's a valid point, start the decades-long attempt to sway people's to your way of thinking about perfume and cologne, the way non-smokers did with smokers, fighting for smoke-free enviornments. Good luck with that. One day you may be successful. But WDW made a business decision that they don't want people smoking on their property except in designated areas. They did it because, apparently, cigarette smoke bothers people more than cologne and perfume :shrug: Whether they're "Allergic" or worried about cancer or just don't like it, they don't want a room that smells like smoke, they don't want people smoking directly outside their rooms on patios or balconies, and WDW has apparently decided that that's part of their business model now. Unless a lawyer can prove WDW doesn't have the right to dictate where people can smoke on property they own and/or control, smoke where they say it's OK to smoke, or don't smoke at all, or be willing to pay a fine.

If WDW really doesn't require any sort of credit card imprint for charging items (or in lieu of a security deposit), then that's surprising. I will go out on a limb and guess, however, that they keep the credit card/debit card/check router number you used to pay for the room in the first place, and they will use that number on the off chance to either smoke in your room or cause some other damage to your room that has to be repaired. Perhaps the real test would be if someone paid for their entire stay in cash. I'm guessing that's pretty rare nowadays, so they always have some way to get money from you if they feel you owe them...

As for the poster that was sure that Disney would let a smoker slide rather than go to lengths to get that 500 dollar fee from him...good luck with that. Disney has scores of lawyers on their payroll already. It really doesn't cost them all that much to start a lawsuit and start harrassing you, and most people, if they KNOW they're guilty, will pay up once they realize they're going to have to go back to Orlando to fight the case, pay a lawyer (or represent themselves, at a certain degree of peril), and hope that a local judge, who's not sympathetic to WDW, or the hundreds of millions they bring in to the local economy, takes pity. Like I said, good luck with that.


And ultimately, I find the whole argument kinda moot. If a friend asked you not to smoke in their home, wouldn't you refrain? If any other private business decided (without a law being in place already) that they wanted their business to be smoke-free, would you be an a$$hole and light up just to prove a point so few people agree with, instead of trying to do it through courts and the government, the way changes are theoretically supposed to be made in our soceity? Would you light up in someone's car? On someone's boat? Any private property where someone would prefer you not smoke? If you answered "Of course I wouldn't smoke" then the same logic applies. You can argue and/or dislike the reasons they give to make you not smoke, but you can't deny they have that right.
 

krueg66

Member
Actually, you don't technically have an allergy to cigarette smoke. (link) That being said, of course the smoke (as smoke, mind you, not as the lingering smell in a hotel room or on a person's body) can irritate existing conditions or other allergies already aggravated, which is why many doctors simply tell their patients that they are allergic to the smoke itself. It's an easier idea to get across, and something that everyone already believes - but, anyway, that's just semantics.

As for Disney being private property which can therefore dictate the "laws" of their land, that's only true up to a point. In this particular circumstance, yes they have every right to come up with whatever smoking regulations they want. However, they don't actually have the right to create laws, regardless of how magical their kingdom is. WDW is not, actually, a sovereign nation, independent of both national and state laws and regulations. For the less reactive readers of this forum, this will be a silly nag point I'm making, but there seem to be quiet a lot of extremists in this thread, and it is for them that I make it.

As far as my examples go of regulating behavior, yes I know kids will be at Disneyworld. I intended my example as, well, an example - not as a hard counterpoint over which we should debate. We can ignore kids altogether, if you like, and I'll make a more literal comparison and we can debate this one, if you want.

Let's go with the assumption that people are "allergic" to cigarette smoke. Asthmatics can't be around it (one would hope they wouldn't go to the out of the way nook-and-cranny smoking areas), and I understand that. That's why there are designated smoking areas and smoking rooms. Again, please observe that I'm saying that most people have no problem following the rules. I just like rules to be reasonable.

Now let's say, and this is much more true than many of the claims made against smokers, that people are also allergic to various colognes and perfumes. They can upset a person's medical conditions by coming into contact with the fumes they produce, which is to say that simply being near someone wearing a fragrance to which you are allergic is enough to set off your symptoms. This is a bit different from the lingering smell of cigarette smoke, which can't trigger medical symptoms but which can just be annoying to those who have to smell the person near them who recently finished a cigarette. To cause problems, one suffering a medical condition needs to be around the smoke itself, remember.

People also tend to put on their fragrances in their hotel rooms when they're getting ready for the day, or cleaning up for the evening. It's also, depending upon the chemical compound of the fragrance, very difficult to get out of the room because you cannot neutralize it with an air spray like you can with cigarette smoke. (I'm sure you could, if you knew which fragrance you were targeting and which chemicals would counter it, but since there are 'umpteen' colognes and perfumes out there, it's a bit of an impractical notion.)

So this leaves us with a problem. If we agree that smokers should be banned simply because some people dislike the way they smell, or even if we make the logical leap that would allow both cigarette smoke itself and the lingering scent it leaves to upset medical conditions, then we really need to address the cologne and perfume problem.

However, telling people that they can't wear cologne or perfume at Disneyworld seems like a crazy notion, doesn't it? Even with the knowledge that people wearing fragrances are much more pervasive than those smoking cigarettes, and that since one must actually be exposed to the smoke itself to upset medical conditions rather than simply breath in the smell of a fragrance the person next to you is wearing, it makes logical sense that fragrances be banned. After all, there are more people wearing cologne or perfume walking around unchecked than there are smokers huddled in an out-of-the-way smoking nook.

My point is very simple and, I think, very American. I respect your right to do something you enjoy but that I find personally offensive. If your enjoyment of whatever that is encroaches unreasonably upon me, then we're going to have a conflict. If, however, you respect my space, I will respect yours.

In other words, if you smoke away from me, in one of the designated areas I won't go to, then I won't be subject to your harmful second hand smoke. All I will be forced to deal with is the smell I find objectionable later, when you're standing next to me in line. Since that's just a minor annoyance on my part, rather than something that would directly cause me harm, I don't really feel I have any right to demand you change your behavior. Now, if you were to light up next to me in the queue, that then becomes unreasonable, and we're going to have problems.

I ask you, then, why is it unreasonable to allow smokers designated areas and rooms which contain the medically harmful smoke, but reasonable for someone else to wear their cologne, which can potentially harm anyone who gets near them?


Can't argue with solid, well-thought out logic backed with facts...but people still will.
 

mdisney

Active Member
If they are smoking-allowed rooms, then only smokers are going to be in them. Smokers tend to be quite familiar and comfortable with the smell that smoking leaves behind.

Some smokers rather not smell it so they got nonsmoking rooms and smoke in there. Another thing is what do you do when they ran out of nonsmoking room. So where do you put the nonsmokers?
 

brainpile3000

New Member
Uncle Jeet, your points are some of the best arguments I have ever read on any subject I've ever read about/researched. They are well backed in logic, common sense, and just all around solid.

It is unfortunate however that people keep missing the point by looking into things far too literally.

Keep up the good work:sohappy:

(ps: I dont smoke)
 

UncleJeet

New Member
Yes, Slappy had a good post. However, I'd hoped to illustrate that I did not think that the cologne/perfume point was valid. It was my intent to show how invalid both points are, both extremist smoking bans and fragrance bans. I guess I failed to make that clear enough.

mDisney, I'm not sure I can argue anecdontal evidence such as saying some smokers don't like the smell of smoke. I've never encountered a smoker who doesn't like the smell of smoke in a room, so they go to smoke in another room, therefore making it also smell like smoke. It seems a little silly to me, but then again, people can be pretty silly so I'm sure there could be some out there.

As for what to do when you run out of smoking rooms, that's an excellent point. However, I don't think (although I've no evidence to support this) that WDW resorts have many walk-ins. Most people, I believe, make reservations. That being the case, it should be up to the individual making the reservation to request the room. If they fail to do that, then they have to live with not getting a smoking room and not smoking in their non-smoking room. If the resort doesn't have any available smoking-allowed rooms at the time the reservation is made, then if smoking is important to the person, they should try another resort or decide to not smoke.
 

shoppingnut

Active Member
mDisney, I'm not sure I can argue anecdontal evidence such as saying some smokers don't like the smell of smoke. I've never encountered a smoker who doesn't like the smell of smoke in a room, so they go to smoke in another room, therefore making it also smell like smoke. It seems a little silly to me, but then again, people can be pretty silly so I'm sure there could be some out there.

As for what to do when you run out of smoking rooms, that's an excellent point. However, I don't think (although I've no evidence to support this) that WDW resorts have many walk-ins. Most people, I believe, make reservations. That being the case, it should be up to the individual making the reservation to request the room. If they fail to do that, then they have to live with not getting a smoking room and not smoking in their non-smoking room. If the resort doesn't have any available smoking-allowed rooms at the time the reservation is made, then if smoking is important to the person, they should try another resort or decide to not smoke.

Well, while my cousin is a smoker, she doesn't like to smell smoke while eating or in a hotel room where she's sleeping.

The problem that Disney has encountered is not running out of smoking rooms, but actually the reverse, they don't have enough non-smoking rooms and have to turn people away and it ends up leaving the smoking rooms unused and thus are losing money on those rooms. Or worse yet, you arrive late at night and check in only to find it is a smoking room and they have no other non-smoking rooms available even though you requested a non-smoking room.
 

mikeymouse

Well-Known Member
AMEN to Jeet and Piglet ... being a former smoker myself. I'm anti-discrimination ... period. I agree when one of the select few smokers smokes outside of a designated area, they should be shot with a stream of water in the face while inhaling.
 

wannabeBelle

Well-Known Member
As for what to do when you run out of smoking rooms, that's an excellent point. However, I don't think (although I've no evidence to support this) that WDW resorts have many walk-ins. Most people, I believe, make reservations. That being the case, it should be up to the individual making the reservation to request the room. If they fail to do that, then they have to live with not getting a smoking room and not smoking in their non-smoking room. If the resort doesn't have any available smoking-allowed rooms at the time the reservation is made, then if smoking is important to the person, they should try another resort or decide to not smoke.
Well actually that isnt entirely true. A request for a smoking room is exactly that, a request. It is like requesting a certain building or area of a resort. It is never guaranteed by Disney. If they dont have a smoking room for you, it was only a request for one, not guaranteed.
As far as numbers ShoppingNut is correct, there was not enough demand to even sustain the minimal number of smoking rooms that were offered previously.
In any event Disney has made a business decision. If they start to lose money because of it, it may be reversed. If not, then it will be left as it is. Belle
 

UncleJeet

New Member
Well actually that isnt entirely true. A request for a smoking room is exactly that, a request. It is like requesting a certain building or area of a resort. It is never guaranteed by Disney. If they dont have a smoking room for you, it was only a request for one, not guaranteed.
True, but I never understood this, nor have I ever had a problem making any "requests" in my reservations that were unavailable when I arrived...such is the purpose of reservations. The request just gives Disney a tidy legal out if, for whatever reason, they choose to take it. But yes, you're right.

As far as numbers ShoppingNut is correct, there was not enough demand to even sustain the minimal number of smoking rooms that were offered previously.
Well, correct in so much as in line with what Disney has said, although we don't know if that is exactly true. I suspect it isn't. WDW attracts a great number of international guests, with a great many coming from smoking-popular countries. In addition, I also suspect the value resorts attract a fair number of smokers, from a purely statistical standpoint. (That's not to say that most people with less money to spend smoke, but statistics do indicate that smoking is much more pervasive in lower income brackets.)[/quote]

In any event Disney has made a business decision. If they start to lose money because of it, it may be reversed. If not, then it will be left as it is. Belle
Well yes, WDW is a business and made a business decision. And wdwmagic is a discussion board and we're making a discussion.

*Minor edit for unnecessary snarkiness
 

DisneyLeo18

Active Member
I must say after reading through this thread i think the arguements stated are well thought out and backed well. i live with 3 people and they all smoke and i hate it and im on medicine now because of it. i think it would be horrible if they let people smoke wherever in WDW. Anyone else on here from NY knows that here you are not allowed to smoke in any public area including bars, restaurants etc.. also they are about to pass a law making it illegal to smoke in your car if there is a passenger under the age of 18 (pushing privacy a little bit i think) so i am not surprised WDW made this decision.
 

jmvd20

Well-Known Member
You're concluding that...there is no conclusive scientific evidence to support it. (kinda of like global warming, a theory, not scientific fact)

No, secondhand smoke is dangerous period - there is no discussion or argument on this and it is nowhere near the stage global warming is at right now. To think that secondhand smoke is not dangerous is laughable - let me re-state my original post.

Fact, carcinogens cause cancer.

Fact, cigarette smoke contains (at least) 11 *known* human carcinogens

Fact, cancer could cause death but is definitely painful

Generally held belief by majority of humans, pain = bad, death = bad...

therfore cancer = bad


Who can disagree with any of these above statements? ...

Now logic = cigarette smoke contains carcinogens, carcinogens cause cancer, cancer is bad due to death and or pain therefore cigarette smoke is bad.

Any questions?
 

krueg66

Member
No, secondhand smoke is dangerous period - there is no discussion or argument on this and it is nowhere near the stage global warming is at right now. To think that secondhand smoke is not dangerous is laughable - let me re-state my original post.

Fact, carcinogens cause cancer.

Fact, cigarette smoke contains (at least) 11 *known* human carcinogens

Fact, cancer could cause death but is definitely painful

Generally held belief by majority of humans, pain = bad, death = bad...

therfore cancer = bad


Who can disagree with any of these above statements? ...

Now logic = cigarette smoke contains carcinogens, carcinogens cause cancer, cancer is bad due to death and or pain therefore cigarette smoke is bad.

Any questions?

You are wrong. Show me a scientific study that is conclusive. There isn't one, kinda like global warming. You are stating a hypothesis, based on nothing but your opinion. I concede smoking is bad for me, but me smoking a cigarette and you walking through my smoke is to different things. The smoke would thereby be dissipated by the air, so the concentration of smoke would be less. Most of the carcinogens are already trapped in my lungs when I inhale (GOD, why do I smoke again? Oh yeah, as one so eloquently put it earlier, I'm a drug addict...) When I exhale, the volume of smoke is considerably less. (as well as the carcinogens) Cancer is the mutation of cells based on some kind of molecular stimulus. How much second-hand smoke do you think you would have to be exposed to to equal the effects of actually smoking one cigarette?

Carcinogens are a factor in cancer, some can be exposed to carcinogens and never develop cancer. Some are never exposed to any known carcinogen and still develop cancer. Common misconception. But please, if you have figured out this molecular phenomenon, please let the world know you have cured cancer.

I agree smoking is bad, bad for me or other smokers. I just also think the hype is worse, not to mention prohibition. Special interest groups love to use hysteria as a weapon which leads me back to my original point. No conclusive scientific proof. Just conjecture. Kinda like global warming...
 

krueg66

Member
I must say after reading through this thread i think the arguements stated are well thought out and backed well. i live with 3 people and they all smoke and i hate it and im on medicine now because of it. i think it would be horrible if they let people smoke wherever in WDW. Anyone else on here from NY knows that here you are not allowed to smoke in any public area including bars, restaurants etc.. also they are about to pass a law making it illegal to smoke in your car if there is a passenger under the age of 18 (pushing privacy a little bit i think) so i am not surprised WDW made this decision.

I agree with you, but we can't smoke wherever we want. Just in the quarantine zones. Those that do so outside those areas should be taken from the parks/resorts. I have no problem with that.
 

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