News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

Creathir

Creathir

Premium Member
Sull1102 said:
So this installation is using Doppelmayr's newest tech, the D-Line system and I believe it is the first installation of such in North America. A ski area will spend in the neighborhood of say $6-9 million in a detachable chairlift and a gondola can run $8-15+ million. This system is huge compared to a ski areas. It's almost equivalent to three or four gondolas for skiing. Also, after riding the lifts in the Alps last month I'm far from worried about Florida wind being a problem.
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That’s the incredible thing with the cost on this.

Let’s assume $15 million per line, and we’re talking 3 lines.
We’ll even tack on another for good measure.
So $60 million.
Let’s give it the good ‘ol Disney Double... $120 million...

BUT we’re hearing this is $200-250 million!!!

I mean... what the absolute heck?!?
 
Lensman

Lensman

Well-Known Member
creathir said:
That’s the incredible thing with the cost on this.

Let’s assume $15 million per line, and we’re talking 3 lines.
We’ll even tack on another for good measure.
So $60 million.
Let’s give it the good ‘ol Disney Double... $120 million...

BUT we’re hearing this is $200-250 million!!!

I mean... what the absolute heck?!?
Click to expand...
If we're napkin'ing, we need to cost:
1. 3 single terminal stations.
2. 1 through on/off station. not custom, but not usual
3. 1 turn station. not usual
4. 1 triple terminal station. This might actually just be 3 terminal stations under one roof.
5. 3 drive systems (assuming the 3 segments of the Epcot line will share one drive system.
6. 3 miles of cable and towers.
7. Enclosing structure for certain all stations - Pop and CBR, not sure about the others since the *might* be plain (yuk!)
8. Extra work to put Pop station in the middle of the lake.
9. Extra work to put Studios station partway into its lake.
10. Extra work to put the Boardwalk turn station into the pond. (Why are so many structures being built in water?)
11. Florida swamp footings for all towers. I'm assuming this costs more than the footings at ski resorts since those are usually right on top of granite.
12. Clearing the land under the guideways and reinforcing them for construction and emergency vehicle use.
13. Pedestrian walkways or redesign/construction to all the new stations.
14. Other upfront total cost of ownership stuff like training for operations and maintenance. Also, are they paying upfront for a Doppelmayr maintenance contract?
15. Redesign and construction of new International Gateway entrance.
16. Are they having this project pay for the new bus stations at the Studios and the redesigned entrance configuration?
17. $3.8 million for the electrical work.
18. Cost of additional retention pond capacity.

Additional costs from later posts:
19. Bus stop for CBR station
20. Restrooms at CBR transfer station?
21. Are there going to be security checkpoints at the outstations?

After you account for all this, you add 20% for overage. Even then this doesn't account for things that we haven't thought of - usually you double the cost estimates to account for those overages. lol
 
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Kamikaze

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
GoofGoof said:
My gut feeling is that the “costs” we hear quoted for all Disney projects are likely highly inflated. Probably a combo of Disney internally inflating the costs through charges between various internal departments and the numbers that get leaked out are inflated by the leakers.

What we know so far is that Disney bought off the shelf gondolas. If there’s no level of customization than it’s not possible that the system costs 10x what other systems cost. The only portion of the project that’s somewhat custom is the stations. I have my doubts they cost that much more than most ski resorts but that’s the only portion that has a level of variability with costs.
Click to expand...

Sinking the towers would, in theory, cost more here than at a mountain.
 
Goofyernmost

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
GoofGoof said:
To be clear, I was questioning the other person stating there was a rumor that this project is costing Disney hundreds of millions of dollars. I’m not he one saying that is the cost. We’ll never know the full cost to Disney. The only publicly available information is the small component being paid for by RCID.
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OK, then we agree? It's not unusual for cost numbers to be pulled out of the air around here. The newish Magic My Way system started out being reported as about 500K and every third post after that slowly increased the cost to about 3 million if I recall. Not sure of the beginning and ending factual reporting, but, it was almost comical about how it increased in increments every time it was mentioned. My guess is that it was somewhere between $150.00 and $40 Trillion.
 
Goofyernmost

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
2percenter said:
If we're napkin'ing, we need to cost:
1. 3 single terminal stations.
2. 1 through on/off station. not custom, but not usual
3. 1 turn station. not usual
4. 1 triple terminal station. This might actually just be 3 terminal stations under one roof.
5. 3 drive systems (assuming the 3 segments of the Epcot line will share one drive system.
6. 3 miles of cable and towers.
7. Enclosing structure for certain stations - Pop and CBR, not sure about the others since the *might* be plain (yuk!)
8. Extra work to put Pop station in the middle of the lake.
9. Extra work to put Studios station partway into its lake.
10. Extra work to put the Boardwalk turn station into the pond. (Why are so many structures being built in water?)
11. Florida swamp footings for all towers. I'm assuming this costs more than the footings at ski resorts since those are usually right on top of granite.
12. Clearing the land under the guideways and reinforcing them for construction and emergency vehicle use.
13. Pedestrian walkways or redesign/construction to all the new stations.
14. Other upfront total cost of ownership stuff like training for operations and maintenance. Also, are they paying upfront for a Doppelmayr maintenance contract?
15. Redesign and construction of new International Gateway entrance.
16. Are they having this project pay for the new bus stations at the Studios and the redesigned entrance configuration?
17. $3.8 million for the electrical work.
18. Cost of additional retention pond capacity.

After you account for all this, you add 20% for overage. Even then this doesn't account for things that we haven't thought of - usually you double the cost estimates to account for those overages. lol
Click to expand...
Very good list.. and the very things that people need to think about when being critical of the alleged costs of projects in a place like WDW. Walt may have been able to piece together a huge parcel of land for his Florida project, but, I don't believe even he ever thought about what it would become outside of his vision of the perfect community. The only real property development he ever had a need to look into was the area that eventually became MK and the area where E.P.C.O.T. was going to end up. The rest is basically a swamp with pasture land in places. They had to buy the swamp to connect all the land. At the time most of it was considered worthless.

Besides, as I have cheerfully always said, what business is it of ours how much they pay for anything. You don't really believe that if they don't spend their profits on that we would ever see any of it do you? Iger and friends would be enjoying ever bigger bonuses instead. This project is big, it's different, it has all the potential to be fun and interesting and it leaves a major bonus of we don't have to ride on it unless we want too. Just stay at different resorts. I stay offsite and I plan to ride the entire system as soon as I get the chance.

I wouldn't be surprised if the World Book of Records adds a category for most wetlands dried up and relocated to other spots and multiple wins being registered by the Orlando branch of TWDC. Their motto... "When nature needs a helping hand, we are at the ready". Or perhaps in this case... we are at the Reedy!
 
M

mmascari

Well-Known Member
2percenter said:
If we're napkin'ing, we need to cost:
1. 3 single terminal stations.
2. 1 through on/off station. not custom, but not usual
3. 1 turn station. not usual
4. 1 triple terminal station. This might actually just be 3 terminal stations under one roof.
5. 3 drive systems (assuming the 3 segments of the Epcot line will share one drive system.
6. 3 miles of cable and towers.
7. Enclosing structure for certain stations - Pop and CBR, not sure about the others since the *might* be plain (yuk!)
8. Extra work to put Pop station in the middle of the lake.
9. Extra work to put Studios station partway into its lake.
10. Extra work to put the Boardwalk turn station into the pond. (Why are so many structures being built in water?)
11. Florida swamp footings for all towers. I'm assuming this costs more than the footings at ski resorts since those are usually right on top of granite.
12. Clearing the land under the guideways and reinforcing them for construction and emergency vehicle use.
13. Pedestrian walkways or redesign/construction to all the new stations.
14. Other upfront total cost of ownership stuff like training for operations and maintenance. Also, are they paying upfront for a Doppelmayr maintenance contract?
15. Redesign and construction of new International Gateway entrance.
16. Are they having this project pay for the new bus stations at the Studios and the redesigned entrance configuration?
17. $3.8 million for the electrical work.
18. Cost of additional retention pond capacity.

After you account for all this, you add 20% for overage. Even then this doesn't account for things that we haven't thought of - usually you double the cost estimates to account for those overages. lol
Click to expand...

All those things, PLUS doing it all while in active guest operations around all the sites.

It's like highway construction, where there's a huge cost to section it off from active use and then restrictions on time and kinds of work that can be done when. Since a ski resort closes (mostly) for the summer, they can have significantly better site access and keep people farther away from the site.

Not even worrying about any other financial reasons, this accommodation of keeping operations active and near construction sites has a huge impact on time, extra costs, and labor. It's easy to see why it costs twice as much to do anything at WDW as people think things should cost.

And, twice a big number is an even bigger number. :)
 
Horizons '83

Horizons '83

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I realize this is an incredibly huge expense for this but if there is one thing we all know, its that Disney knows how to make $. You have to figure the Finance folks green lit this (financially of course) because they ran some pro formas that told them long term, this will be save the company money.
 
ryguy

ryguy

Well-Known Member
TJ Vazquez said:
I realize this is an incredibly huge expense for this but if there is one thing we all know, its that Disney knows how to make $. You have to figure the Finance folks green lit this (financially of course) because they ran some pro formas that told them long term, this will be save the company money.
Click to expand...

I am sure the calculation is based on the average room price increasing at the resorts being serviced by gondola.
 
truecoat

truecoat

Well-Known Member
TJ Vazquez said:
I agree, that must have been factored in, along with several other factors like reduced use of Bus Transport, etc.
Click to expand...

Right, one bus can cost a quarter million and way on up to operate over a years time. Fuel, insurance and inspections, labor and maintenance etc etc. I'm sure they'll save money in the long run on this even with such an elevated cost.
 
Kamikaze

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Goofyernmost said:
OK, then we agree? It's not unusual for cost numbers to be pulled out of the air around here. The newish Magic My Way system started out being reported as about 500K and every third post after that slowly increased the cost to about 3 million if I recall. Not sure of the beginning and ending factual reporting, but, it was almost comical about how it increased in increments every time it was mentioned. My guess is that it was somewhere between $150.00 and $40 Trillion.
Click to expand...

Except that Martin is confirming the cost is in the hundreds of millions. Thats about as close to fact as we will get with things like that.
 
Kamikaze

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
truecoat said:
Right, one bus can cost a quarter million and way on up to operate over a years time. Fuel, insurance and inspections, labor and maintenance etc etc. I'm sure they'll save money in the long run on this even with such an elevated cost.
Click to expand...

Lets say it costs $500k to operate one bus for a year. Double what you said.
Lets also say this takes 50 buses off the road. Also high.
Thats a full 10 years before this breaks even at $250m.
 
Lensman

Lensman

Well-Known Member
Kamikaze said:
Lets say it costs $500k to operate one bus for a year. Double what you said.
Lets also say this takes 50 buses off the road. Also high.
Thats a full 10 years before this breaks even at $250m.
Click to expand...
More napkins, please!

So at peak exit time, the Epcot segment will be transporting 4,500 passengers per hour from Epcot to the various resorts and the Studios segment will be transporting 4,500 passengers from the Studios to various resorts. Each bus can hold 100 passengers (please refine this guess if you know more) and round trip time including loading and unloading is between half an hour to an hour. So that's peak 45-90 buses to replace the max capacity of the Skyliner gondolas. Now I don't know whether closing times will be able to be staggered to allow fewer buses to be in the fleet.

What strikes me is that transporting 4,500 guests in the hour after Illuminations is over doesn't seem like a huge amount, but I have no idea of the audience size of Illuminations. Hmm, but wait, we can estimate from the guest count at the four resorts and the percentage going to MK vs Epcot vs Studios vs AK vs other.
CBR: 2112 rooms
Pop: 2880 rooms
Animation: 984 rooms, 1120 suites
Riviera: 300 suites/rooms
At 4 people per room that's about 30,000 people. At *most* 1/5th of them will be watching Illuminations or 6,000 guests. Surprisingly, Disney may have done their math. lol.

I agree with everyone who has posted about Disney raising prices for Skyliner resorts. Also, I suspect it'll be a big part of being able to sell units in the Riviera DVC - Skyliner access to Galaxy's Edge with Epcot/Illuminations as a bonus.
 

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