Lines at the FP+ entrances

[Nubs70]

To the "Stay longer on property" argument.

If I am scheduling my entire experience 60 days out, how will MM+ keep me onsite longer? My next trip is set for August. I usually set aside a pool/DTD day. This year the pool/DTD day is being replaced with a UNI day as a fact finding mission. Depending on the MM+ and UNI experiences, this trip will determine if and where my money goes in the future.

 

[ParentsOf4]

This presents a few questions though:

• If this was the behavior change that Disney wanted, why weren't they ready for it?
• If this was a behavior change that guests wanted, why aren't they happy with it?
• If MyMagic+ was changes guest behavior, do guests put up with the new "required" behavior?

There are several factors coming into play.

First, there's the technology rollout. Reports of positive experiences asides, hundreds continue to experience problems with MyMagic+ every day. Precious staffing resources are being devoted to resolving those problems rather then enhancing MyMagic+.

For you software engineers out there, staff is limited. The coders are either fixing bugs or implementing feature enhancements. Right now MyMagic+ has plenty of bugs to keep a lot of people busy.

Consider what happened during the recent MDE upgrade. Disney provided a much faster version for users. Great! But it also introduced a bug that allowed guests to play games and get around attraction tiering at Epcot and DHS. It sounds as if that bug has been fixed but it exposes the pitfalls associated with software development. Fix one thing but break another.

Second, guest behavior is changing rapidly. Just like Disney, guests are still trying to figure our how best to use MyMagic+. Guest behavior in November is not the same as guest behavior today. Disney only recently adding FP+ for offsite guests. That change is still rippling through guest behavior.

Meanwhile, onsite guests are booking their experiences up to 60 days in advance. Changes made today affect what will happen at the parks 60 days from now.

Third, management is reluctant to adapt to change, reluctant to approve changes to the system.

Consider FP vs. FP+.

Disney wanted to change guest behavior with FP+. They wanted guests to preplan. Obviously (at least to me ), preplanning should result in a higher FP+ redemption rate.

If I show up at MK and happen to get a FP for Space Mountain, I might need to rearrange my entire plans for the day in order to redeem that FP. Am I really going to be able to return during my Space Mountain 1-hour window? Maybe, maybe not.

However, if I've booked a FP+ selection for Space Mountain days or even weeks ahead of time, I'm going to plan my day accordingly. I'm more likely to actually use that FP+ selection.

Now, how does this thinking impact WDW management?

For the sake of discussion, let's say Disney distributes 1000 FP per hour for Space Mountain. However, only 800 guests end up actually using those FP selections.

With FP+, that number might be up to 900 per hour. Remember, FP+ is supposed to encourage preplanning. Naturally, when people preplan, they are more likely to keep to those plans.

If you want to maintain the same FP+ vs. FP line length, you need to reduce the number of FP+ being distributed. Try to justify that to management. You very well might hear the following reply:

"What, you want me to reduce the number of FastPass+ that we distribute? We spent $2 billion on this system. George Kalogridis just told Bob Iger than MyMagic+ can 'accommodate 3,000 more people a day in the busiest period of the year in the Magic Kingdom'. Now you're telling me I have to reduce the number of guests we can accommodate?"

Good luck selling that one.

 

[Cubfan300]

As a large scale IT Program Manager, I think that I see the trap that most people on the forum are falling into. FP+ was not designed to enhance the guest experience. It is a data collection tool, plain and simple. By encouraging guests to pre-plan their attraction visits, the data engineers can now identify where people are going to be in the park and why. I am certain that the next phase of MM+ will include ads for shops, restaurants, etc around where your next FP+ will be, so when you look at your smartphone, other "suggestions" will be there as well.
Also, for marketing purposes, the data team at Disney now knows that if you use your MagicBand to ride BTMR and then 30 minutes later, go down to Pecos Bill's for a meal, they can use that data later on to ramp up food production down at the restaurant 30 minutes later.
And it really isn't about individual behavior, it is more about group behavior. The amount of data that is being generated by the MagicBands has to be massive and as a result, the engineers that are mining it aren't concerned about Joe Smith and his family, but what 2000 people are doing at precisely 12:45 in the afternoon in Fantasyland. These tools are all about data collection, marketing, personnel & restaurant management and nothing about how many times people (less or more), can get on TSMM each day.
The key fact to all this is the lack of park hopping with FP+. They are managing the data load per park and if you are park hopping with FP+, the data collection and analysis becomes exponentially more difficult. How does the data engineer factor in the time between the last MB use at MK and the next at Epcot? Were those people travelling the whole time? Did they go back to their room for a nap? Did they eat off property? Did they pay cash in a park for a meal at MK and therefore did not utilize the tool to capture the data before heading off to Epcot?
I have read many times in this forum and many others that the legacy FP system was largely underutilized by the masses and that smart people, like those on this board, found ways to manipulate the system. Disney found a way to close that loophole, find a cute way to encourage people to participate in their data collection efforts with the bands AND find a new avenue to potentially market to almost everyone who comes into the parks through the most distributed technology in the last 25 years, through their cellphone. As an IT guy, I think that it is pure genius. As a Disney customer, I will look to those smart people on this board to again to help find a way around the system.

 

[flynnibus]

It's not just the poor design that you mentioned, the new system is fundamentally flawed. The actual acquiring/distribution of the Fastpasses is more complicated than the previous distribution. That in itself though isn't the fundamental flaw, that's only a poor design

Bunkus..

How is walking up to any kiosk around the park.. pull out card, scan once.. and picking where you want to ride FOR YOUR WHOLE GROUP more complicated than

walking to attraction 1, find your pass, insert... now repeat for every person in your party... now go do something else... then later.. repeat the process.. (oh don't forget to have everyone's pass!)... and do over and over.

FP+ is 'one and done' and allows groups to be treated as one, and eliminates paper tokens to manage.

Aquiring them is worlds easier... and can be done in a single transaction... unlike classic FP which required multiple transactions, multiple times throughout the day... oh and you had to goto a specific location.

The fundamental flaw in the system is that it can only work for all guests if those guests acquire Fastpasses for things that don't need it.

Even more bunkus... you are taking what you believe to be a 'difference' in the system, tearing down that difference, and then throwing out the whole thing claiming it's all flawed. Garbage.

Fastpass+ is a restaurant that serves prime rib. They require you to order in advance so they can manage their inventory. However, this restaurant still only has a set number of prime rib dinners available so when they run out, they also require you to order the hot dog in advance.

Usually in an analogy.. the point is to draw parallels to something familiar and well understood.. not make up jibberish scenarios.

This would eliminate tiers, this would eliminate the need to have Fastpasses where it doesn't belong, this would still be a benefit to staying on property, this would still encourage park hopping, and this would be a genuine "plussing" of the previous system.

You are missing an important safety blanket that the advance reservation model brings... structure and early engagement. By bringing people into the details earlier... Disney has the opportunity to market and promote. Instead of relying on customers seeking out the materials on their own... Disney now has a strong tool to bring guests into the spin factory early. Secondly, the 'structure' helps many navigate what seems like a daunting onslaught of 'too many choices', the structure gives people a guide to navigate by. Just like the touring plans of your favorite man crush len... the structure of plans is not just about 'optimization' but prioritization and help understanding what should they ensure they do.

There really is nothing desirable about the old FP distribution model. Disney could have improved it without going this far, but then it would just be FP, and it would run out even quicker. The more you optimize distribution, the quicker it would be consumed. FP+ is not just electronic FP, it strives for much more.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I spent the day yesterday at Tokyo DisneySea. Incredible park. FP worked well, lines were totally manageable, even with Indy, Aquatopia, and a couple other things being down for refurb. No need whatsoever for FP+ or any idiotic MagicBands. It was great being in a park that is more interested in investing my money into quality attractions and quality experiences...instead of things like MM+

It was great. Between my day trips down to Disneyland in California over the last couple months, and this visit to Tokyo Disneyland Resort, it is clear from a long-time guest perspective that WDW has screwed itself by launching MM+. Such a waste of my time (as a guest) to be forced to use MM+. I have no desire to go back to WDW...for the first time ever in my life. I used to look forward to my 2 to 3 trips per year. No longer. It is seeming more and more that MM+ was never conceived to improve WDW guest experiences - it was simply a mechanism that TDO felt could entice guests to spend more $$$ without actually improving anything.

Three weeks from today I'll be strolling underneath the Mira Costa making a bee line for Sindbad and I can't wait.

WDW will still get the thousands I normally gave them from someone else... Of that I'm certain. But I'm plenty happy that it's not going to come from me.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Didn't say that at all, but two dimensional pictures don't tell any depth story and also doesn't even begin to explain why it is that way, even if it is. You folks are just looking for an instant scape goat and that is FP+ regardless of what is actually happening. So in that respect, yes pictures with no detail are in some ways fake. They only tell what you want them to tell.

WOW.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Many are reporting generally longer FP+ lines. There is something going on.

The longer FP+ lines might be the result of one or more factors:

1. FP+ are being redeemed at a higher rate. (More on this in a moment.)
2. Disney is distributing more FP+ than FP.
3. FP+ is slower to redeem than FP.
4. The FP+ distribution algorithm is less sophisticated than the FP distribution algorithm, resulting in lumpier distribution.

I suspect part of the problem right now is that Disney is overdistributing FP+. They are handing out too many. This doesn't mean they are handing out more FP+ than they did FP; it means a higher percentage of guests are redeeming their FP+ selections.

Consider that one of the primary business objectives of MyMagic+ is to get guests to preplan their vacations. As such, FP+ might have a higher redemption rate than FP. That means potentially more guests in FP+ lines.

Unless Disney intends these longer FP+ lines to be permanent, it might be necessary for Disney to reduce the number of FP+ being distributed.

No. The answer is "fake pictures".

But thank you for playing.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Star Tours FP was backed up past the Indy entrance when we went by once today and just shy of that 2 other times.

Yeah, but you don't know WHY!!

And did you check the dimensional depth? It's likely those people weren't waiting in line... They were all just walking the same direction single file.

 

[Cubfan300]

One more personal story regarding FP+. When we used them in September, lines at the initial scan point did tend to get bogged down by people who did not have a MB, trying to get into the queue. Several times we encountered groups who simply tried to walk into the FP+ line without a paper ticket or MB. The CMs, instead of asking these people to step aside to allow others to enter the queue, would try to explain to them that it was for people with legacy FP or FP+. I am hoping that CM education will help alleviate this as larger crowds begin to encroach on WDW.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

One more personal story regarding FP+. When we used them in September, lines at the initial scan point did tend to get bogged down by people who did not have a MB, trying to get into the queue. Several times we encountered groups who simply tried to walk into the FP+ line without a paper ticket or MB. The CMs, instead of asking these people to step aside to allow others to enter the queue, would try to explain to them that it was for people with legacy FP or FP+. I am hoping that CM education will help alleviate this as larger crowds begin to encroach on WDW.

The problem is there will be a constant flow of the uninformed. The problem you describe above is something they'll never escape.

And instead of simplifying the processes, they've made them exponentially more difficult.

It's crazy when you think about all of this being required for a THEME PARK. To me it's just nuts!!

 

[JerseyDad]

There's nothing inherit in FastPass+ that will make someone stay in a park longer. At least at Epcot, DHS, and DAK, guests can make 3 FP+ selections and be done with those parks rather quickly. (Although attraction tiering at DHS and Epcot puts a damper on that.)

With (for example) 3 evening FP+ selections for TSM, TOT, and STII, then why spend the morning in any WDW theme park? Why not sleep in? Or go shopping? Or hang out by the pool? Or head to Universal in the morning?

What FP+ does due is reduce the need to be there for rope drop. 3 of WDW's 4 theme parks simply don't have enough good attractions worthy of FastPassing.

During the quarterly earnings calls, Iger and Rasulo have stated the following goals for MyMagic+:

1. Encourage guests to pre-plan more of their vacations. The idea being, if vacations are preplanned at WDW, guests are less likely to spend their Orlando vacation dollars elsewhere.
2. Provide guests with an overall better experience. The idea being that happy guests spend more.
3. Present Disney with up-sell opportunities, in large part through smart phone technology.
4. Increase incentives for guests to switch from offsite to onsite hotels.

At least publicly, these are the ways that MyMagic+ is supposed to make money.

MyMagic+ was intended to change guest behavior. It's doing exactly that.

Currently, it seems to me that Disney is struggling to keep up with that changed behavior. It seems they still are working on how to adjust FastPass+ appropriately.

....thank you for the explanation / analysis. However, already grasping all of what you stated ...I should have added one of those little "sarcasm smilies" to the end of my sentences. Sorry to have you type all of that!!

...as you noted: "MyMagic+ was intended to change guest behavior. It's doing exactly that".

...and yes ...it's certainly changing guest behavior ...as in getting them ticked off to the point where they are reconsidering a visit to WDW. It's just a big cash grab (or attempt) ...dressed in Mickey clothes.

 

[flynnibus]

if they don't 'fix' the lines at FP+ entrances... they are going to do long term harm to the image.

This is exactly what happened at DL... DL locals spit at FP.. in large part due to the poor implementation of FP in the park when it came where WHERE they put things, how they modified queues, etc. Basically the side-effects became so galvanizing... it was even more fuel for the anti-FP crowd.

Same thing will play out here in WDW if they don't fix this. Tape on the ground or extra CMs walking the line aren't fixes.

 

[wogwog]

As a large scale IT Program Manager, I think that I see the trap that most people on the forum are falling into. FP+ was not designed to enhance the guest experience. It is a data collection tool, plain and simple. By encouraging guests to pre-plan their attraction visits, the data engineers can now identify where people are going to be in the park and why. I am certain that the next phase of MM+ will include ads for shops, restaurants, etc around where your next FP+ will be, so when you look at your smartphone, other "suggestions" will be there as well.
Also, for marketing purposes, the data team at Disney now knows that if you use your MagicBand to ride BTMR and then 30 minutes later, go down to Pecos Bill's for a meal, they can use that data later on to ramp up food production down at the restaurant 30 minutes later.
And it really isn't about individual behavior, it is more about group behavior. The amount of data that is being generated by the MagicBands has to be massive and as a result, the engineers that are mining it aren't concerned about Joe Smith and his family, but what 2000 people are doing at precisely 12:45 in the afternoon in Fantasyland. These tools are all about data collection, marketing, personnel & restaurant management and nothing about how many times people (less or more), can get on TSMM each day.
The key fact to all this is the lack of park hopping with FP+. They are managing the data load per park and if you are park hopping with FP+, the data collection and analysis becomes exponentially more difficult. How does the data engineer factor in the time between the last MB use at MK and the next at Epcot? Were those people travelling the whole time? Did they go back to their room for a nap? Did they eat off property? Did they pay cash in a park for a meal at MK and therefore did not utilize the tool to capture the data before heading off to Epcot?
I have read many times in this forum and many others that the legacy FP system was largely underutilized by the masses and that smart people, like those on this board, found ways to manipulate the system. Disney found a way to close that loophole, find a cute way to encourage people to participate in their data collection efforts with the bands AND find a new avenue to potentially market to almost everyone who comes into the parks through the most distributed technology in the last 25 years, through their cellphone. As an IT guy, I think that it is pure genius. As a Disney customer, I will look to those smart people on this board to again to help find a way around the system.

Well done and welcome to board participation. I know it makes no statistical difference in the big brother data grab but I pay cash for everything at WDW just to make a statement to me. Plus I have never and will never use FP Minus as I enjoy a casual vacation and proudly use a phone for talking to people with voice only. I have visited enough in the past so I have no burning desire to ride any particular attraction. My visits are becoming shorter at WDW and more often on DCL where Iger and gang have not ruined the classic Disney service and experience..yet. So relax B. I., you still get my money. Then I enjoy added days at Uni. I stopped staying at substandard (for the price) Disney resorts years ago.

 

[ParentsOf4]

No. The answer is "fake pictures".

But thank you for playing.

You mean like the "fake" picture I took of the FP+ line in November at BTMRR?

 

[JimboJones123]

Yeah, but you don't know WHY!!

And did you check the dimensional depth? It's likely those people weren't waiting in line... They were all just walking the same direction single file.

Um.... that wasn't it. But good theory.

 

[RSoxNo1]

"What, you want me to reduce the number of FastPass+ that we distribute? We spent $2 billion on this system. George Kalogridis just told Bob Iger than MyMagic+ can 'accommodate 3,000 more people a day in the busiest period of the year in the Magic Kingdom'. Now you're telling me I have to reduce the number of guests we can accommodate?"

Good luck selling that one.

Just because you can accommodate 3K more people, doesn't mean 3K more people are showing up. That declaration was intentionally vague, much like everything else publicly stated about this project.

 

[Goofyernmost]

WOW.

Shocking, huh?

 

[RSoxNo1]

Bunkus..

How is walking up to any kiosk around the park.. pull out card, scan once.. and picking where you want to ride FOR YOUR WHOLE GROUP more complicated than

walking to attraction 1, find your pass, insert... now repeat for every person in your party... now go do something else... then later.. repeat the process.. (oh don't forget to have everyone's pass!)... and do over and over.

FP+ is 'one and done' and allows groups to be treated as one, and eliminates paper tokens to manage.

Aquiring them is worlds easier... and can be done in a single transaction... unlike classic FP which required multiple transactions, multiple times throughout the day... oh and you had to goto a specific location.

Try explaining the concept to a newbie from start to finish, and tell me which concept they grasp quicker. Legacy Fastpass was getting a ticket at a deli counter. Fastpass+ involves linking your tickets to your Fastpass+ reservations, selecting the preferred attractions, then selecting one of four groupings. There are multiple steps in the new process that are inevitable because it's a system capable of more. Moreover, while the old process was certainly more tedius, you're repeating the same basic process. That's a lot easier for a newbie to grasp.

Having said all that, I prefer the idea of a kiosk or smart phone to acquire Fastpasses. I believe this can be improved upon, but ultimately this isn't the problem (As I said). Right now, the design is imperfect and that was the root of that part of my post. I know you like to be the contrarian on here, but in doing so you often miss the point. The point I was making (apparently not well enough) was that the actual distribution/acquisition of the Fastpasses themselves isn't why the system is fundamentally flawed. The reason why it's flawed is because of the new rules for acquiring them (60 days out, 3 per day) and what's available (shows and rides that simply don't need it).

Even more bunkus... you are taking what you believe to be a 'difference' in the system, tearing down that difference, and then throwing out the whole thing claiming it's all flawed. Garbage.

This was said for my comment, "The fundamental flaw in the system is that it can only work for all guests if those guests acquire Fastpasses for things that don't need it." The pool of attractions at every park but the Magic Kingdom was insufficient to satisfy the 3 Fastpasses per day for every guest. The original information that Disney came up with based on the expanded Fastpass distribution was as follows:

MK: 94% of days, guests can acquire 4 Fastpasses
EC: 82% of days, guests can acquire 3 Fastpasses
DHS: 95% of days, guests can acquire 3 Fastpasses
DAK: 87% of days, guests can acquire 3 Fastpasses

To enhance this, the suggestions included adding capacity where it wasn't necessarily needed, expanding park hours, building additional attraction capacity, etc.

So since you've declared this as "bunkus", please enlighten me. Tell me why Fastpass has been added to shows and attractions that rarely have waits over 10 minutes? If you convince me that this is for any reason other than, "We need the capacity to meet the desired numbers of Fastpass+ reservations per guest," I'll stop any and all Fastpass+ arguments on my end. That means no more whining about it on here, no more MiceChat articles, and no more complaining on podcasts. Please, convince me. I want to be wrong about this.

Usually in an analogy.. the point is to draw parallels to something familiar and well understood.. not make up jibberish scenarios.

That's the thing, there is no comparison to what they're doing. Look at Fastpass for shows for example: Showtime is at 1:00 PM, Fastpass return time is 12:40-12:55, you can walk in the standby line for that show during that window and sit in the exact same spot for the show. More importantly, you can walk in at 12:56 and still get into the show. Without preferred seating, Fastpass for shows will cost a guest time, not save them time. Looking at attractions that have lower popularity, Fastpass+ is likely to save less than 5 minutes in many cases. Once again, selling something that you don't need.

You are missing an important safety blanket that the advance reservation model brings... structure and early engagement. By bringing people into the details earlier... Disney has the opportunity to market and promote. Instead of relying on customers seeking out the materials on their own... Disney now has a strong tool to bring guests into the spin factory early. Secondly, the 'structure' helps many navigate what seems like a daunting onslaught of 'too many choices', the structure gives people a guide to navigate by. Just like the touring plans of your favorite man crush len... the structure of plans is not just about 'optimization' but prioritization and help understanding what should they ensure they do.

There really is nothing desirable about the old FP distribution model. Disney could have improved it without going this far, but then it would just be FP, and it would run out even quicker. The more you optimize distribution, the quicker it would be consumed. FP+ is not just electronic FP, it strives for much more.

Explain to my why my suggestions on the My Disney Experience App are as follows:

• Magic Carpets of Aladdin
• Meet Fairy Godmother near Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique
• The Plaza Restaurant
• Main Street Electrical Parade

I understand the benefits of this from Disney's perspective. But I also just got back from traveling with newbies. The parks are confusing as hell if you're uninformed, and too many people don't know that there are resources available, nor do they understand how to utilize that information if it is available. The first thing the traveling group I went with did in early January was grab a Fastpass for Little Mermaid. They then proceeded to walk into PhilharMagic, fully expecting to use their Fastpass to ride the Little Mermaid.

The kiosks may eliminate the confusion of a Fastpass machine being no where near the attraction, but it still involves a multi step process. It also doesn't tell you that while Fastpass is available for Mickey's PhilharMagic, it's not really needed. Comparatively, my "man crush @lentesta" has contributed to a system that allows you to select as many attractions as you want, hit the optimize button and it will re-order those attractions so that you're touring in the most efficient way possible. Sure, that's not for everyone, but it is still far superior than what Disney is trying to do and it can utilize Disney's ever changing system. I know Touring Plans is a successful company, but at last check it's not as large or as successful as Disney. IT doesn't have the same resources, yet it is still producing a superior product.

As you said, Fastpass+ is intended to accomplish more than getting an individual on a ride in a shorter amount of time. However, it is not been my experience that this is at all beneficial.

 

[Disneyfamily4]

You mean like the "fake" picture I took of the FP+ line in November at BTMRR?

View attachment 46476

Some people will defend Disney no matter what.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

You mean like the "fake" picture I took of the FP+ line in November at BTMRR?

View attachment 46476

What you can't see is which direction this line is HEADED. It's not the FP+ line for BTMRR... These people are waiting in a line leading toward the banks of the rivers of America to take a picture of the incredibly re-imagined former burning settler's cabin! Now without all that pesky fire!