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Imagination! Being Replaced w. Dr. Doof?

willtravel

Well-Known Member
So, I'll pose the question...why? What changed with us culturally? Was it the Imagineers or Disney's fault, per se? Or was it a societal shift in interest?

There is this WDW TV show that I will see periodically that talks about Epcot and some Imagineer says how people were yelling for thrill ride in Epcot. This is in reference to WOM/Test Track. All I can think of was yea, right. WDW wanted to bring a thrill ride into Epcot to get the younger generation in there. I think this was also around the time UNI was building Islands of Adventures. Maybe wrong. Could you imagine WOM and the original Imagination in Epcot now? When from what I have read on this board they are cutting 30 seconds or a minute or two for turns, to get people in and out faster. Those two pavilions would not survive. Is UNI and what they offer what the public wants and now Epcot Center (original idea)is outdated?
 

Fairybuzz

Well-Known Member
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So, I'll pose the question...why? What changed with us culturally? Was it the Imagineers or Disney's fault, per se? Or was it a societal shift in interest?

There is this WDW TV show that I will see periodically that talks about Epcot and some Imagineer says how people were yelling for thrill ride in Epcot. This is in reference to WOM/Test Track. All I can think of was yea, right. WDW wanted to bring a thrill ride into Epcot to get the younger generation in there. I think this was also around the time UNI was building Islands of Adventures. Maybe wrong. Could you imagine WOM and the original Imagination in Epcot now? When from what I have read on this board they are cutting 30 seconds or a minute or two for turns, to get people in and out faster. Those two pavilions would not survive. Is UNI and what they offer what the public wants and now Epcot Center (original idea)is outdated?
I don't think the original epcot would be as unpopular as they do. They obviously don't seem to read a lot of opinions online or things like that even this board shows that so many people want the original imagination back.

I could imagine lol) the original imationation ride still being here as much as i can imagine small world or haunted mansion still being here. sure they got advancements but so could this.

To answer your question, yes I think the fault lies in the imagineers as well as the fact that people underestimate the intelligence of children. Yes I said it. Kids have the potential to learn and enjoy learning as well. I did. tons of people I grew up with did. I refuse to admit the chemical makeup of peoples brains is any different than it was back then. Some of my friends have children now that find epcot boring because their too small for most of the rides and a lot of whats left is not interesting enough to keep their interest. (seas, this) I know spaceship earth kept my interest as a kid not just because of the space scene but everything was so cool to look at the floating globe, the waves of communication, the rome burning scene, the backward descent, Michelangelo painting the ceiling me and my mom loved that scene same with the cavemen in WOM blowing on their feet! that was cute! Imagination, Horizons, and Wonders were my fav pavillions back then however. Horizons with its awesome futuristic stuff that I was jealous of, Imagination with its unexplainable magic and beauty, and wonders with its trippy music wacky things to play with, and body wars. (no ride to this day has ever made me sick so I guess I dont have any motion sickness whatsoever, in fact I was SHOCKED when I learned it made people nauseous) of course they are all gone now rendering that magical feeling that was epcot, dead. Little kids need something more than just things they see on tv anytime at home. They need an experience that will stay with them. not something they'll render babyish in a few years.
 

Gregoryp73

Active Member
Future World was originally based off of Walt's vision and love of world's expositions. Granted a lot of it changed, but this is the original intent.

EPCOT will take its cue from the new ideas and new technologies that are now emerging from the creative centers of American industry. It will be a community of tomorrow that will never be completed, but will always be introducing testing and demonstrating new materials and new systems. And EPCOT will always be a showcase to the world of the ingenuity and imagination of American free enterprise. ~ Walt Disney

He said "community of tomorrow"...to me that means attractions that focus on a few things.

1. Technology and industry to come in the future
2. Technology that helps us become community

A proper imagination pavilion should push the limits, and bring together multiple groups or sponsors. They should be courting Google, or even have disney self sponser by celebrating Imagineering itself. How many people wouldn't jump at the chance to be a part of an interactive imagineering experience? The ride itself could be a ride through the development process. Storyboards come to life, maybe even a section where you ride into the story. Post show would be a make your own attraction...disney could collect the data and help shape public opinion on development of future rides.

That type of ride would be a engineer factory for developing young minds.
 

ExtinctJenn

Well-Known Member
Future World was originally based off of Walt's vision and love of world's expositions. Granted a lot of it changed, but this is the original intent.

EPCOT will take its cue from the new ideas and new technologies that are now emerging from the creative centers of American industry. It will be a community of tomorrow that will never be completed, but will always be introducing testing and demonstrating new materials and new systems. And EPCOT will always be a showcase to the world of the ingenuity and imagination of American free enterprise. ~ Walt Disney

He said "community of tomorrow"...to me that means attractions that focus on a few things.

1. Technology and industry to come in the future
2. Technology that helps us become community
Unfortunately Walt's vision of what EPCOT would be hasn't existed since it opened in 1982. He wasn't planning a theme park, he was planning a community... a place to live and work. So, while I agree with the goal of what you're saying here, when he spoke about it, no he wasn't planning attractions that focus on anything. :D

Ultimately I blame what has happened at Epcot on a change in what people are ultimately looking for in a vacation and what keeps kids interested and engaged these days. When I was 7 years old, I adored EPCOT Center. I loved the "edutainment" attractions. Horizons, Imagination and Spaceship Earth were my hands down favorites with World of Motion and Universe of Energy a close 2nd. I would ride these attractions over and over again. It was a different world in the early 80s though. We didn't have the internet and instant gratification for anything we could ever want to know. We didn't have video games (well, not like we do now) and a lot more was left to the imagination when it came to things like school work and learning. Today's children are growing up in a very different world. They instantly can gain access to any piece of information they could possibly ever want to know. They are taught using completely different methods, most using technology and again, curriculum that is even different than it was back then.

My 7-year old son continues to amaze me in that he would much rather ride Living with the Land and Spaceship Earth over and over again than Soarin' or Test Track (though he does love Test Track). When we go to MK he'd rather sit through Carousel of Progress 10 times in a row than go on Space Mountain once. He even loves the entire Universe of Energy attraction. But... he's a very different kid that most his age, even his own friends. He has a hard time engaging with other kids his age for that reason. One of his best friends is visiting a local theme park every week doing the big roller coasters and thrill rides but he's not interested. Honestly, I'm loving it because I'm 100% sure it's going to change very soon.

I think, much of the things we "complain" about having changed at Epcot specifically are because those of us who grew up with the EPCOT of the 80s remember just how fundamentally different it was. The entire scope and feeling of the park was just totally different. A big point for me was when I accepted that it wasn't necessarily "bad" that it changed, it just wasn't done in the best ways. Most of what us 80s kids hate about today's Epcot are the things that changed during what I often call "the dark times." Those years in the mid/late 90s where across property some very bad decisions were made... mostly to save a buck. The focus was lost.

That said... to me... much of that imagination that was lost in those years is slowly returning and it's because those children of the 80s are now the Imagineers. The recent refurbs they've done and the expansions like New Fantasyland truly feel to me more like the world that was and the world Walt wanted. Change takes time though and we have to be patient to witness it. While I would LOVE to see the original Imagination pavilion make a return, I have to accept it's gone forever. Instead, I look forward to someone with some imagination taking over the refurb of the pavilion and finding a way to incorporate what was with what ultimately will capture the attention, mind and imagination of today's kids and families. To me, a P&F refurb, if done well and with attention to detail, could be a fantastic way to bring back the original concept of the pavilion (uhm... imagination?) while dating it appropriately to work for today's generation. It's about balance and I truly believe that no matter what the theme they go with, today's Imagineering teams can and will find a way to do something with Imagination that is worth our time!

Here's hoping!
 

Ralphlaw

Well-Known Member
Nobody could afford to live year round in Walt's original version of EPCOT. And no community could afford to constantly switch into new power plants, new water plants, new sewage treatment systems, new transportation systems, etc . . . The original EPCOT was supposed to be something of a testing ground for new technologies to help solve the problems of our cities. It was part of the Urban Renewal craze of the 50's and 60's. Unfortunately, true changes in the community would be too expensive to constantly put in.

Yet, DVC actually allows people to own and live (for a while every year) within the borders of WDW. Interesting. Walt's idealism of the 50's and 60's morphed into the Disney Vacation Club, and the town of Celebration (for that matter).
 

Wikkler

Well-Known Member
Who is the scientist character with the afro?
She's obviously drawn by a different artist than the rest of the picture.
There's no other source for this image, but has anyone seen this picture before?
This looks like it may have been edited by a fan, but on the other hand I've seen official concept art with dropped-in photoshop clipart before.

Edit: Looks like the same picture popped up in a different thread here back in March.
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/mystery-project-at-epcot.862004/page-15

She is definitively the computer lady from SSE
 

Wikkler

Well-Known Member
A proper imagination pavilion should push the limits, and bring together multiple groups or sponsors. They should be courting Google, or even have disney self sponser by celebrating Imagineering itself. How many people wouldn't jump at the chance to be a part of an interactive imagineering experience? The ride itself could be a ride through the development process. Storyboards come to life, maybe even a section where you ride into the story. Post show would be a make your own attraction...disney could collect the data and help shape public opinion on development of future rides.

That type of ride would be a engineer factory for developing young minds.

Epic Fail Post-Show... Every single kid would make roller coasters that go upside down every millisecond and Disney would make super fast rollercoasters... unthemed ones!
 

Gregoryp73

Active Member
Epic Fail Post-Show... Every single kid would make roller coasters that go upside down every millisecond and Disney would make super fast rollercoasters... unthemed ones!

Then make a grading system similar to that of test track...that scores you on your design. Entertainment, Nausea, Excitement, etc...the better they engineer it, the better the score.
 

Silver Figment

Active Member
Phineas and Ferb is the best thing Disney has done in years. It's not like they'd be taking out anything special with Imagination. I say go for it.
They would be taking out something special though. The current ride is nothing great, but the character of Figment is. If they really did put Doof in then I don't think they would bring back Figment. His days would pretty much be over and a lot of people would be upset. I'm all for revamping the pavillion but I would keep Figment.
 

ExtinctJenn

Well-Known Member
They would be taking out something special though. The current ride is nothing great, but the character of Figment is. If they really did put Doof in then I don't think they would bring back Figment. His days would pretty be over and a lot of people would be upset. I'm all for revamping the pavillion but I would keep Figment.
I'd bet you, after their last attempt at removing him failed and resulted in a quick refurb to make it not only completely Figment but like he had puked purple all over the attraction, they won't try to remove him completely again no matter what theme they go with. Pertending for a minute the P&F refurb was a definite thing... Figment could totally be an agent along with Perry (Agent F) and they could so make it work.
 

Silver Figment

Active Member
I'd bet you, after their last attempt at removing him failed and resulted in a quick refurb to make it not only completely Figment but like he had puked purple all over the attraction, they won't try to remove him completely again no matter what theme they go with. Pertending for a minute the P&F refurb was a definite thing... Figment could totally be an agent along with Perry (Agent F) and they could so make it work.
They could make it work, but I still feel like they'd be dragging his character down... again.
 

Fairybuzz

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately Walt's vision of what EPCOT would be hasn't existed since it opened in 1982. He wasn't planning a theme park, he was planning a community... a place to live and work. So, while I agree with the goal of what you're saying here, when he spoke about it, no he wasn't planning attractions that focus on anything. :D

Ultimately I blame what has happened at Epcot on a change in what people are ultimately looking for in a vacation and what keeps kids interested and engaged these days. When I was 7 years old, I adored EPCOT Center. I loved the "edutainment" attractions. Horizons, Imagination and Spaceship Earth were my hands down favorites with World of Motion and Universe of Energy a close 2nd. I would ride these attractions over and over again. It was a different world in the early 80s though. We didn't have the internet and instant gratification for anything we could ever want to know. We didn't have video games (well, not like we do now) and a lot more was left to the imagination when it came to things like school work and learning. Today's children are growing up in a very different world. They instantly can gain access to any piece of information they could possibly ever want to know. They are taught using completely different methods, most using technology and again, curriculum that is even different than it was back then.

My 7-year old son continues to amaze me in that he would much rather ride Living with the Land and Spaceship Earth over and over again than Soarin' or Test Track (though he does love Test Track). When we go to MK he'd rather sit through Carousel of Progress 10 times in a row than go on Space Mountain once. He even loves the entire Universe of Energy attraction. But... he's a very different kid that most his age, even his own friends. He has a hard time engaging with other kids his age for that reason. One of his best friends is visiting a local theme park every week doing the big roller coasters and thrill rides but he's not interested. Honestly, I'm loving it because I'm 100% sure it's going to change very soon.

I think, much of the things we "complain" about having changed at Epcot specifically are because those of us who grew up with the EPCOT of the 80s remember just how fundamentally different it was. The entire scope and feeling of the park was just totally different. A big point for me was when I accepted that it wasn't necessarily "bad" that it changed, it just wasn't done in the best ways. Most of what us 80s kids hate about today's Epcot are the things that changed during what I often call "the dark times." Those years in the mid/late 90s where across property some very bad decisions were made... mostly to save a buck. The focus was lost.

That said... to me... much of that imagination that was lost in those years is slowly returning and it's because those children of the 80s are now the Imagineers. The recent refurbs they've done and the expansions like New Fantasyland truly feel to me more like the world that was and the world Walt wanted. Change takes time though and we have to be patient to witness it. While I would LOVE to see the original Imagination pavilion make a return, I have to accept it's gone forever. Instead, I look forward to someone with some imagination taking over the refurb of the pavilion and finding a way to incorporate what was with what ultimately will capture the attention, mind and imagination of today's kids and families. To me, a P&F refurb, if done well and with attention to detail, could be a fantastic way to bring back the original concept of the pavilion (uhm... imagination?) while dating it appropriately to work for today's generation. It's about balance and I truly believe that no matter what the theme they go with, today's Imagineering teams can and will find a way to do something with Imagination that is worth our time!

Here's hoping!
Actually if they changed it originally to some sort of imagination 2 figments dreamfinder quest or something like on the epcot legacy site, I wouldn't have complained at all. How do I know? Because Star Tours became Star Tours 2 and It was done well and immersive and I still love it despite nostalgia about the old one. I've loved all the spaceship earths too. (although the new one could use more stuff at the end instead of a dark tunnel while ur distracted by the tvs lol) I never complained about refurbs to HM or IASM, or space mountains. If the pavillions here changed but still kept that epcot magic the kind that gave you original worlds to imagine and play with instead of "lore" thats already heavily established on tv shows or movies, then I wouldnt have so many posts in this thread lol.
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Premium Member
My 7-year old son continues to amaze me in that he would much rather ride Living with the Land and Spaceship Earth over and over again than Soarin' or Test Track (though he does love Test Track).
I loved your whole post, but this caught my eye. Last trip, the kid (age 8) quite literally BEGGED to go on that ride. It was a shock to me...considering Sourin' is just around the corner. Also quite nice, because most times it's a walk-on ride!
 

englanddg

One Little Spark...
Premium Member
I'd bet you, after their last attempt at removing him failed and resulted in a quick refurb to make it not only completely Figment but like he had puked purple all over the attraction, they won't try to remove him completely again no matter what theme they go with. Pertending for a minute the P&F refurb was a definite thing... Figment could totally be an agent along with Perry (Agent F) and they could so make it work.
That made me nearly spit out my drink!
 

Victor Kelly

Well-Known Member
When I was younger it was World Of Motion, Horizons, SSE and Imagination, to heck with the rest of the place. Now I visit Epcot because of the countries. I still love SSE. But what is futureworld is now a ghostly shell of what it once was.

Fix Imagination and the rest of the area Yesterday!
 

Fairybuzz

Well-Known Member
I loved your whole post, but this caught my eye. Last trip, the kid (age 8) quite literally BEGGED to go on that ride. It was a shock to me...considering Sourin' is just around the corner. Also quite nice, because most times it's a walk-on ride!
See what'd I tell ya. and also @ExtinctJenn too. A ride can be educational and fun! we deeply underestimate kids. I know my 5 yo sis actually enjoys school and telling me what she learned.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
EPCOT did educational entertainment right, you enjoyed the rides just as much as you were enriched by them. And the education was amazingly subtle that you didn't really realize you were even learning (though you were). It just felt like you were being entertained, like you were in the middle of an amazing experience, never felt like a school lesson.

I mean when was the last time you opened a text book that sucked you into it and plopped you right in the middle of such amazing sets and animatronic figures? I visited EPCOT for the first time when I was just about 3-4 years old (1991 I think it was). While I loved Magic Kingdom (what Disney fan wouldn't?), even at that age I don't remember riding any of those rides and wishing I was anywhere else. They were truly wonderful.
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
Does anyone else feel like Phineas and Ferb's Heyday was like 5 years ago?

This is almost as bad as a move of opening up an American Idol attraction when the show is 8 seasons in. Gotta get your head in the game TDO...strike when the iron is hot (or build new characters and attraction experiences that don't rely on mainstream trends).
 

ExtinctJenn

Well-Known Member
Actually if they changed it originally to some sort of imagination 2 figments dreamfinder quest or something like on the epcot legacy site, I wouldn't have complained at all. How do I know? Because Star Tours became Star Tours 2 and It was done well and immersive and I still love it despite nostalgia about the old one. I've loved all the spaceship earths too. (although the new one could use more stuff at the end instead of a dark tunnel while ur distracted by the tvs lol) I never complained about refurbs to HM or IASM, or space mountains. If the pavillions here changed but still kept that epcot magic the kind that gave you original worlds to imagine and play with instead of "lore" thats already heavily established on tv shows or movies, then I wouldnt have so many posts in this thread lol.
Oh yeah I mean don't get me wrong... would LOVE a redo of the original but in this case, unlike the Star Tours refurb, the physical ride and building were modified in the refurb. The current Image Works sits in an area of the building that was once ride track. In other words, short of literally starting over and rebuilding every aspect of it, a very expensive thing to do, I just don't see the "original" finding a way back in any form.
 
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