wserratore1963
Active Member
I like the show but I hardly think that would work. I would rather see them go back to the Dreamfinder or how about really creative and Imaginative and think of something new & educational.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Imagination! Being Replaced w. Dr. Doof?
- Thread starter bcampione
- Start date
Wags14
Active Member
Whoops sorry. I meant innoventions. Glad you like the idea.
A balance must be struck. Too many tie in and characters, and EPCOT becomes cartoon science. Future World would lose that futuristic mysterious excitement that makes it unique. Too few tie ins and characters, and a big chunk of the visitors lose interest. The current balance is good. When you walk in, you don't see Mickey and the gang in overwhelming, obvious places. Nemo is inside the seas. Character meet n greets are inside Innovations West. A few characters like Mickey and Goofy wander around in costumes like space outfits, but they're not in the middle of everything.
P&F, within the Imagination Pavilion, would work in my opinion, without detracting from the overall look and feel of Future World. An apt comparison of too much would be the Donald Duckinzation of El Rio De Tiempo, the Mexican Boat Ride. In my opinion, they went too far in Disneyfying this mysterious and unique immersion in Mexico that already had such quiet Jungles, pyramids and Aztec rituals. Some pepping up was probably warranted, but three cartoon cabelleros bounding around is too much bombast for me, especially early in the ride. I think the Three Cabelleros could have come in later, but not right away with the pyramid video.
The Imagination Pavilion is already childlike and fun, what with Figment and all, so adding P&F (while keeping Figment) wouldn't be as over-the-top as Three Cabelleros in Mexico. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
P&F, within the Imagination Pavilion, would work in my opinion, without detracting from the overall look and feel of Future World. An apt comparison of too much would be the Donald Duckinzation of El Rio De Tiempo, the Mexican Boat Ride. In my opinion, they went too far in Disneyfying this mysterious and unique immersion in Mexico that already had such quiet Jungles, pyramids and Aztec rituals. Some pepping up was probably warranted, but three cartoon cabelleros bounding around is too much bombast for me, especially early in the ride. I think the Three Cabelleros could have come in later, but not right away with the pyramid video.
The Imagination Pavilion is already childlike and fun, what with Figment and all, so adding P&F (while keeping Figment) wouldn't be as over-the-top as Three Cabelleros in Mexico. That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
Using a dragon in Future World is lazy?
Gregoryp73
Active Member
In my honest opinion yes...just as is using talking cartoon fish.
I rode it as a kid, and was always wondering what a purple dragon and half hearted willy wonka had to do with the future...it was the post show where I could make music using stepping in the path of lights and lasers. Or all of the other futuristic sensory overload items made this pavilion my favorite. It was a playground to create and bask in what's to come.
I did enjoy some of the magic tricks and illusions on the ride but it wasn't the song or the dragon that made you go wow! It was just earworms and eyeworms to make you buy stuff.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
I think you're in the minority here. Now, if you want to argue that the current incarnation of Figment is a lazy approach to creating a character I am 100% in agreement. Being obnoxious isn't funny and isn't what Figment originally was. He was an excited child before, now he's an annoying know it all.
Fairybuzz
Well-Known Member
AH!! someone who sees what I saw about that lol! When I first saw the new mexico ride my first thought was THEY RENDERED THAT PYRAMID SCENE TOTALLY RANDOM! It just became completely out of the blue. Theres a long mysterious hallway of art that is meant to be non-senseically ignored as you watch the screen at the end with the goofy antics. The actions on the screens don't match the atmosphere at all.
I think P and F can enter the pavillion without cartoonifying the ride.
I fear the imagineers are begining to see epcot less as a place to learn and look into the future and our world culture and more as a magic kingdom for stuff that doesnt fit in the magic kingdom.
But a 3-D p and f film is ok. We all know if they put them on the ride they'd just be put on plasma screens anyway so just put them in a movie! itll save a lot of grief from purists. Also why can't this generation fall in love with fig and the DF like the other ones did? do they not fall in love with Cinderella when they see her film for the first time?
Gregoryp73
Active Member
I totally agree that I'm in the minority in my statement, and I honestly think that the original incarnation of figment was a brilliant character. I just don't think he belongs in an area of the park meant to show the world of the new and exciting promises for the future.
Personally I think that they could really build an inspiring attraction that excites, entertains, and sticks with the guest without using P&F or Pixar Characters or any other sort of unnecessary eye candy.
For example, take a any movie about the future (that is not dystopian)...now throw a purple cartoon dragon in the middle of it. The new test track is a great direction (although not perfect)...they didn't toss in a talking spark plug, or mater into the mix...mostly because I believe GM had their way. It's a much better ride for doing so.
There are plenty other areas in WDW to put characters such as figment, and dory, and nemo...
Bairstow
Well-Known Member
Not all of Future World
Not all of Future World is about the future.
In fact, most of it wasn't and isn't.
Spaceship Earth and World of Motion were both mostly history-telling experiences, and the Universe of Energy, The Living Seas, The Wonders of Life and The Land were all focused on exploring current science and technologies.
An abstract concept like "Imagination" is timeless, and given that all the other pavilions already spend at least some time exploring at least some facet of "promises of the future" it would be overly-broad for Imagination to attempt to do the same on without focus.
That's why the angle the pavilion takes is more of a fundamental and childlike take on the formation of new ideas.
If you mean without using any sort of host character(s) to give the attraction some personality, they tried that already and the result was catastrophically sterile.
There's a reason why Cranium Command had Buzzy and the Universe of Energy got Ellen.
Not all of Future World is about the future.
In fact, most of it wasn't and isn't.
Spaceship Earth and World of Motion were both mostly history-telling experiences, and the Universe of Energy, The Living Seas, The Wonders of Life and The Land were all focused on exploring current science and technologies.
An abstract concept like "Imagination" is timeless, and given that all the other pavilions already spend at least some time exploring at least some facet of "promises of the future" it would be overly-broad for Imagination to attempt to do the same on without focus.
That's why the angle the pavilion takes is more of a fundamental and childlike take on the formation of new ideas.
If you mean without using any sort of host character(s) to give the attraction some personality, they tried that already and the result was catastrophically sterile.
There's a reason why Cranium Command had Buzzy and the Universe of Energy got Ellen.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
Personally I think Future World was never really the intent of the front half of Epcot. Count me amongst those that thought Eisner's "Discoveryland" remake under Project Gemini made a lot more sense. Having two lands devoted to tomorrow/the future at one resort is silly and results in Pixar characters being classified as futuristic.
englanddg
One Little Spark...
I see your assertion and raise you Horizons (the whole darned ride), city CenterCore scene in World of Motion (eat your heart out Progress City), the now extinct intro and ending to Universe of Energy, the Hydroponics and other Labs at the Land, the Hydrolator at Living Seas, and the original descent (heck, I'd even go with the Irons version, but I'll always think of Cronkite for that ride) at Spaceship Earth, the original Communicores with SMRT-1 (that sassy little guy), Compute a Coaster, Tom Morrow (not my favorite, but I'll take him over a video game wall and an amazing robotic demonstration), the games, the Population Clock, the AT&T exhibits and the Astuter Computer Revue / Backstage Magic.
Sure. If you want to tell a story, you have to educate the audience.
More importantly (with respect to science and the future), if you don't know where we've been, you'll never know why we are where we are, and you certainly will have no idea where we are going.
No, groundbreaking ones, impressive even today, even though they don't have 3D or other gimmicks.
The Seas was the largest (and is still the third largest) saltwater aquarium in the world. It was over 2 decades before another one took the crown. It was, and still is, a sight to behold, and the condition it's kept in is deplorable.
Wonders of Life isn't part of the original Epcot, and while it's a much beloved pavilion (never one of my favorites, though I did enjoy it, and while I wouldn't use that term back then, now I would say it felt very "Eisner"), it led the way teaching healthy eating habits / healthy lifestyles, and had amazing attractions that at the time were cutting edge biological science (remember, when it was built, the human genome wasn't even close to being mapped yet...biological science has advanced dramatically in the past few decades, and that story could have been told there, but they shuttered the attraction).
The Land posed the important question of how to live sustainably and how to grow enough foods in hostile environments utilizing technology and agroponics...still a question that we are working on today.
And WHY was Horizons the crown jewel of the experience (as opposed to the weenie that is Spaceship Earth, and I use that as the Walt term "weenie"...nothing more)...simple. It tied all these themes together with a unifying view of the future.
Yes, it is timeless. But, how did Imagination fit in? Simple. It was that "one little spark" (used to be part of the original song, and a very memorable part of it!) from someone who understood where we have been, where we are, and where we could go, that makes new things happen!
And that, my friend, is Imagination! So, after spending the day seeing where we've been, where we are, and where we are going, this ride lived in harmony with it's thematic inspirational brother on the West Side (Horizons) in telling a story that educated, entertained and inspired youths and adults alike that...well, the CoP says it well...there's a great big beautiful tomorrow.
However, EPCOT, different than CoP, which merely wonders at the advancements in technology and science from a third party consumer view, challenged you, the audience, and informed you that YOU are part of it too!
Yes, it's called laziness.
And while some may disagree, I already stated that Wonders of Life never quite "fit"...it felt "Eisner"...cheap story, cheap gimmicks, and while overall a very fun pavilion, pale in comparison with it's fellows on the front end of the Park.
And please, don't get me started on the mess that the inclusion of Ellen has made of the grand Universe of Energy.
A character is important, but only when it's a character in a story, not as a "host" alone.
Figment works to "sell" imagination and inform the audience in the original version of the ride simply because he is NOT a host. Rather, the Dreamfinder is the host, and we get to follow Figment through his journey, and thereby take a journey ourselves.
Simply titling the ride a "journey" does not make it one...the ride itself must be long enough and the story and other themes intriguing enough to engage the audience and allow them to fall into a willing suspension of disbelief.
The middle ride (which thankfully I never had the displeasure to see in person) and the current ride do this very poorly.
<tips his hat and strolls off into the threads>
Bairstow
Well-Known Member
Buzzy's a better example than Ellen, but neither are "hosts" in the literal sense.
Using a character with or without some kind of "story" to engage the audience can be very useful technique, which is why Disney uses it so often.
There's nothing lazy about it.
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Fair enough. I note you only responded to that specific part of my overall commentary...
There is a difference between a "mascot", a "host", a "presenter" and a "distraction". Ellen fills the first and last without question (and questionably the third) definition. Buzzy is a perfect example of the first and last.
But, yes, it is quite lazy story telling. No effort is made to respect the audience, and the theme is dumbed down and in your face. And that's why Universe of Energy and why, while many have fond memories of Wonders of Life, it's not got the same following as Horizons or the original Imagination...
And why Universe of Energy is still a walk on ride, even AFTER the inclusion of Ellen.
But, learning something, sparking an interest in something (I only read H.G. Wells because of Disney, for example, I only started playing around with solar energy and basic electronics after riding Universe of Energy, list goes on...)...dreaming something, doing something... (Do or do not, there is no try) ...
This was EPCOT Center, and I weep (I know, overly dramatic) as to the shameless consumerist direction it has taken.
Oddly, the best Futureworld experience that isn't an original or a slightly modified one...in my opine? The T. Rowe Price Piggy Bank experience...kid loved it as did I (important that we both do), it teaches an important message (fiscal responsibility), and it did it without being preachy or over the top, but is also very clear about what it means to teach. Whoever designed that gets a high five from me.
The GM showroom is a close second, as they still show off concept vehicles, but not like they used to. Getting off a ride and walking into a commercial (which is how it feels) is completely different than getting off a ride talking about the history of transit, and where we are going, then walking out and seeing the future and working your way back to current "futuristic" (read, next model year) exhibits.
That single, silly, Innoventions exhibit holds down the tent peg of what was the mission and vision of EPCOT Center, to me...
So, I'll pose the question...why? What changed with us culturally? Was it the Imagineers or Disney's fault, per se? Or was it a societal shift in interest?
It's been noted many times how special people viewed a theme park trip...how they used to dress, how they used to enjoy it. Now, I've always been part of the t-shirt and shorts crowd (unlike at Disneyland where people actually got into Sunday Best for the parks decades ago)...
Those days have passed...
I leave you with this:
Oh...and a Universal mention...
As the Lorax left us... "Unless"
P&F in Imagination will leave me with one less Future World pavilion to visit. I already avoid The Living Seas because of the destruction caused by Nemo and Pixar. Never again will I visit the Seas. I hope and wish for construction walls around The Seas each time I visit that side of the park...walls that will hopefully come someday and signal the end of Nemo and Friend's maniacal reign over The Living Seas.
Imagination, while crappy, hasn't been thematically destroyed by Pixar or Disney cartoon character tie-ins. Shoving some characters that have been somewhat popular with kids age 3 to 10 will result in my permanent exit from the Imagination Pavilion, just like the Seas.
EPCOT Center was a creative and thematically strong park. It was dreaming about the future - a real, tangible but groundbreaking future which together, we could achieve (which makes it very different from the cartoonish Tomorrowland). I miss EPCOT Center. EPCOT is still my favorite park, but with a P&F tie in for Imagination, I will have two Future World Pavilions that never see my face through the doors.
Imagination, while crappy, hasn't been thematically destroyed by Pixar or Disney cartoon character tie-ins. Shoving some characters that have been somewhat popular with kids age 3 to 10 will result in my permanent exit from the Imagination Pavilion, just like the Seas.
EPCOT Center was a creative and thematically strong park. It was dreaming about the future - a real, tangible but groundbreaking future which together, we could achieve (which makes it very different from the cartoonish Tomorrowland). I miss EPCOT Center. EPCOT is still my favorite park, but with a P&F tie in for Imagination, I will have two Future World Pavilions that never see my face through the doors.
FigmentJedi
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be great if Neil DeGrasse Tyson was involved in a real space pavilion for Epcot instead of that standalone thrill ride with the McDonaldsland playground we got?
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Yes.
Just yes. Also, being a parent, I HATE that friggin playground. Being someone who used to work for CEC (and recognizes Softplay), I have also been up in there...not to play with the kid, but to rescue kids.
Fairybuzz
Well-Known Member
ok ok enough visual torture lol!
your right. Imagination should be (and would have been) timeless. My question is does any ride have to change? I'm not talking about tweeks and updates for effects I'm talking about total makeovers like what happened. Thats my issue with epcot every ride has changed (except maelstrom but I dont want to give them any ideas knowing them they'll make a viking movie JUST to do it even if its the worst movie ever). Like I said If they did this to the Magic Kingdom or DIsneyland everyone would be outraged.
I liked that before they changed it every time I went on the ride I saw something new wether it be the box of applause or things spelled with letters or the little lake even things i never noticed till i saw videos long after it was gone. THERE WERE STILL THINGS FOR ME TO DISCOVER!!
Fairybuzz
Well-Known Member
englanddg
One Little Spark...
Yeah the simulation of a simulationyuck yuck yuck
You can be mad about Pluto, but the man knows his stuff...