Huge Monorail expansion?

[PhotoDave219]

Originally posted by cloudboy
No more than his. Which means that we are both voicing our opinions. That means you have to look at what data you have to back that up.

I have seen some of the source material firsthand. Because it is not mine, i will not reveal any of its details or where its from. If you want to know that, then you will have to ask him.

YOU have nothing to back up your opinions. No data, no real world experience. All your trying to do is to weasel out of the fact that you have nothing to support your conclusions and the fact that you know nothing of what you speak - especially since you suggest that Hitachi can deliver a better Monorail then WDI, the original designers. That statement right there proves you know nothing of what you speak.

As for Tyler, i will vouch for him once more. Ive seen some of the research as well. Its rather thorough.

 

[paulcmartens]

scrap monorail...

scrap the monorail...have one big maglev glide from MK EPCOT MGM Celebration and to the new depo where that ridiculous jet train will arrive in 2030.

 

[garyhoov]

I love the map! Great job!:sohappy: :sohappy:

Now here's the problem with it as Tyler explained it to me in detail previously:

My understanding is that the monorail is currently running at peak capacity. Think about the Magic Kingdom at closing time. As it currently stands, there are long lines for the Monorail. What would happen if the buses were gone and everybody depended on the monorail? Chances are you'd be waiting all night.

That's the key to buses, you can have a hundred of them all going different directions when needed, and they aren't running into each other.

How about fuel cell buses combined with an expanded monorail and people movers?

 

[PhotoDave219]

Fuel Cell Busses seem to make sense. God knows ive scrambled to shut my sunroof and flip on the AC when im behind some of those busses

As for expanding the monorail, it all depends on where you want to lay the track and what you want to connect. Do you want a loop that can go to each of the four parks or individual ones that can connect the TTC with each park?

 

[marni1971]

Riiiiight.... I have modified my plan. Again. If anyone is still interested / reading this thread! It is now fully based on the hub and spoke concept with a few tweaks:

No outer `wheel` - its is of course possible, but would take the cost substantially higher.

The new monorail lines are single track duel direction - with passing points at the stations and where needed on the track (similar to Orlando Internationals peoplemover). This would depend on the reliability of the track switches - if they can`t act as regular points then either duel direction dual track or single direction duel track (like the present layout) would be needed.

I have given a rough idea of a new T & TC at Epcot - this would be the central T & TC (hub of the plan), with the present one becoming a satellite.

Also, I`ve drawn a rough layout of a typical exchange - matching height monorail and WEDWay platforms (WEDWay platform same as in Tomorrowland - A one sided platfrom with parallel speedramp would also work) with at grade walkways if possible, or under the tracks (if raised), over or under (if the tracks are on the ground).

I have run the tracks through as much expansion areas as possible - another thing to consider - but some areas will never be built on (apart from the wilderness preserve some area are too boggy). Also, following as much of the exisitng road would a) possibly keep the price down (not as much surveying to do) and b) give good maintainence and emmergency access.

Note the parallel but separate monorail routes west of Epcot - to save money, they could merge into one, but a) a new interchange would be needed, possibly costing more money (despite needing one less at Epcot T & TC) and b) It would disrupt the hub and spoke concept.

Now announcing the Sixth Preliminary Plot Transit Masterplan here:

http://photoalbums.wdwmagic.com/showphoto.php?photo=8806&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

Think I need to get a real job!!

 

[cloudboy]

Let’s see…and sorry about posting links…

First, you may want to check out this site. It’s a little biased, but it gives some good comparisons: http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/HowMuch.html, and http://www.monorails.org/webpix 2/RyanRKennedy.pdf (Acrobat, it is pretty technically detailed).

This is from Hitachi, not much but tells about it’s cost benefits. The web site also talks about their product specs: http://www.hitachi-rail.com/products/monorail/advantages/advantages4.html. There is also a presentation I found from Hitachi (although I wonder about some of the graphics): http://archives.elevated.org/docs/Hitachi_Presentation.pdf. And this is from Austin’s proposal: http://www.austinmonorail.org/monorail_costs.htm

I have not presented many figures – if you can tell me what you would like me to get moer information on I can do that.

Oh, and you should probably be aware that WDI did not invent the monorail. The first monorail was at the U.S. Centennial Exposition of 1876. Several other lines were built after that but before Disney’s. Disney was the first (I believe) that was built commercially by the Alweg Company. Check the history at the monorails.org site.

 

[cloudboy]

No fair that Martin gets all the fun! Here is my interpretation, building upon everyone's work. In this system there is a large hub built just west of Epcot. Monorail lines run up to th eMagic Kingdom, down to the Animal Kingdom and Animal Kingdom Lodge, one straight down to the Studios (tight fit under the bridge!) and one to the Marketplace. The resorts are served by busses, which can run on normal roads but also along dedicated busways to the hub. Everyone would take a bus to the hub, and from there a mornorail to their destination.

The Yach and Beach club, and the Boardwalk (and maybe Swan and Dolphin as well) would have a shuttle that could bring people right to the hub. This could even be some kind of PRT system.

And for the logic of the Magic Kingdom beam, I would realign the Epcot beam so that there is a switch in fron tof the Polynesian, and one to the east of the current TTC. These would be 3 position so that you can transfer from the Epcot beam to the outerbeam for express service to the Magic Kingdom, or to the inner beam to service the resorts. The Parking lot monorail would be on the outer beam, but switch through the TTC instead of going onto the Epcot beam.

EDIT
Oops! I forgot the link to the picture!
http://photoalbums.wdwmagic.com/showphoto.php?photo=8949&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

 

[daksimba]

Why is everybody so worried about monorails to the resorts? That's one of the very reasons the monorail resorts cost more, because of the luxury of having that monorail line. To add the monorail to every resort would just drive up room cost to cover the cost.

I think only a couple of resorts really need monorail access (if we did a huge monorail expansion.) And the only ones I can see getting it would be Boardwalk and Old Key West (since we like to promote perks for the Vaction Club people.)

All we really need is monorail access for the parks only. The busses should be able to run at current levels with the resorts, and the monorails would still lessen a serious part of the load.


As for the airport thing.......don't plan on it. It was tried back when Gland Hood :hurl: was mayor, and shot down because Universal and Sea World succesfully argued that it would create a monopoly on the resorts

And this was with Disney willing to front the entire cost.

 

[paulcmartens]

two cents...

Connect the loop through one resort at epcot, mgm, blizzard (maybe -- if you limit epcot monorail line to monorail line resort guests only) and finish the loop at AK.

Blizzard (maybe) MGM, and Hotel would have both sides stop...so you don't have to wait for a loop...oh, and epcot gets expanded this way as well. add 4 trains, maybe 5 (you now have 10 stops).

Any questions?

For serious detail, especially of the Satellite image, go and download full PDF's with at Disney Downloads

 

[marni1971]

Very nice! I know mine looks way busier than this - thats one of the downfalls of the hub concept being added after building the resort, but I believe it makes sense as it splits the load over several lines. I`m also sticking religeously to Walts original idea of using WEDWay as well - maybe I should broaden my Horizons (pun intended!)

SOrry If I`m babling - was up at 5am GMT bidding for a WDW book on ebay (I won !!!) C ya later!

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Build pathways let the buggers walk. Burns calories makes them hungrier buy more food bigger profits plus people get exercise, Simple

 

[marni1971]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Bill]

Originally posted by mkt
I drive WDW roads daily... and aside from the Hotel Plaza/Downtown Disney area, and on theme park exits... I disagree entirely.

And who has determined this?




they can afford it.. but for that much, they could easily build a new park, or fix most of the problems in the existing parks




WAIT A FRIGGIN MINUTE HERE!!!! Jon your "WDI source", and you, have both said in the past that the monorails will be extended... when did this about face happen. However... I will be nice and not call you a liar, since you have generally been pretty cool to me. But this definitely raises red flags now to me... many red flags.




actually.. if more busses service, then less people will drive.. thus less vehicles on the roadways. So yes, there would initially be more congestion, but once guests realize that there is more Disney Transportation available, then less people will drive and thus, less congestion.

That's right... Jon insists we'll have more monorails by 2010. I still find it way too early to believe that, though I'd love for it to happen, it's just too early and there are so many alternatives to monorails, it's not even funny. As to who's determined the congestion, that was from Reedy Creek a few years ago.

Though with that said, I really hope we get more monorails. You know me... can't stand the busses.

And now that I think about it, it brings up a point. If you want to get rid of the congestion, the monorails would work better then busses for this reason... Guests minds just seem to like monorails better then busses. It's just some odd thing. The Magic in a Monorail perhaps. More guests are inclined to use Monorails then busses.

 

[mmssbrg2]

Take a look at this as an alternate option:

www.skywebexpress.com

 

[paulcmartens]

or this:

SkyTran

from Popular Science: March 2003
SkyTran Public Transportation
THE VISION; Inventor Doug Malewicki claims he's found a way to "totally remove all commuter congestion." His SkyTran concept would cost no more than an equivalent elevated light-rail system but move far more passengers more quickly. He envisions two-seat vehicles whizzing along an overhead track at 100 mph, propelled by passive maglev tech. www.skytran.net


THE VERDICT: "The problem is implementing it," says Jerry Schneider, professor emeritus of civil engineering at the University of Washington. Transportation systems are complicated, especially in urban areas where there's no room to add infrastructure. You also have to work with government agencies, deal with environmental concerns and fend off competition from rail, buses and cars. Most likely, SkyTran would end up as a private project, much like Disney's once-ballyhooed monorail.

 

[cloudboy]

Paul - that is so elegent in it's simplicity - one line connecting all the parks. In fact you do have a hub there - it's Epcot. The busses from the resorts can still run to Epcot, and from there people can get on the Monorail to the other parks. You would just have to build another plaform on the Northbound Side.

As far as Boardwalk and Yacht and Beach, build a peoplemover system to the front of Epcot.

Somewhere back in this thread I think I posted a link to Innovative Transit Technologies. This is a school website that has listings of tons of these types of systems.

 

[paulcmartens]

thanks cloudboy

With all the hysteria around cost and 'practicality' I thought I'd modify my plan to something more simple.

Yes, Epcot get's an expanded station to make two. Thats important and a given with my plan. MGM would get a double station, Animal only one (because it is at end of loop).

For me, the core idea is to connect all parks and maybe Blizzard Beach. If an Epcot (such as Boardwalk, also with a double station) resort would get connected...that's fine...but if not, that's o.k too, but I would expect better renovations at the Monorail resorts to make them even more superior.

Personally, I would skip any connection to another hotel...and just connect all parks with seasonal access to blizzard beach/limited access.

I don't know...I think it can be done...I think the cost has been exaggerated and based on exaggerated design (24 more trains...rriiiigiht) I mean, what kind of plan where they studying?

I don't intend to do away with busses.

If there is enough money, I would love to connect the two major epcot resorts (NOT swan/dolphin). Each with a double station...but since they are so close to epcot...I'm not sure its worth it.

I'd love a connection to downtown disney. But not sure its in the cards? Let me see what I can draw up.

Thanks again cloudboy, your compliment made my day.

 

[garyhoov]

Re: or this:

Originally posted by paulcmartens
SkyTran

from Popular Science: March 2003
SkyTran Public Transportation
THE VISION; Inventor Doug Malewicki claims he's found a way to "totally remove all commuter congestion." His SkyTran concept would cost no more than an equivalent elevated light-rail system but move far more passengers more quickly. He envisions two-seat vehicles whizzing along an overhead track at 100 mph, propelled by passive maglev tech. www.skytran.net


THE VERDICT: "The problem is implementing it," says Jerry Schneider, professor emeritus of civil engineering at the University of Washington. Transportation systems are complicated, especially in urban areas where there's no room to add infrastructure. You also have to work with government agencies, deal with environmental concerns and fend off competition from rail, buses and cars. Most likely, SkyTran would end up as a private project, much like Disney's once-ballyhooed monorail.

I've always loved the SkyTran concept not only because they claim exceptionally low cost, but riding in one of those cars hanging from that track going 100 MPH would be better than any ride in any of the parks (maybe that's a bad thing?)

The concept seems to show that that the tracks can be split and merged. That would be essential to move the kind of volumes necessary (You'd probably need, what?, 15 different lines minimum loading and unloading at the Magic Kingdom to keep things from getting backed up).

I've never worried much about cost. If it's a really cool system, the image and marketing will be worth more than any cost of building it in my opinion, but any proposed system HAS TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE TRAFFIC. That's why I gave up on the idea of a primarily monorail system long ago. The crowd volumes at Disney World are very unique, and systems that would work great to move people around a college campus or city will likely have problems efficiently moving tens of thousands of people all leaving at the exact same time.

Unfortunately the Skytran website hasn't been updated since the March 2003 Popular Science artical, so I'm afraid it may never be anything more than some cool sketches.

 

[garyhoov]

Well I just sent an e-mail to SkyTran's founder with a link to this thread to see if he had anything to say. Maybe he'd like to comment.

 

[BwanaBob]

Re: Re: or this:

Originally posted by garyhoov
will likely have problems efficiently moving tens of thousands of people all leaving at the exact same time.

There will never be a soultion. Period.

The cost to initiate something used once a day for people leaving is not an issue. You're leaving!

Now, having problems getting into the park? Woah! Money is not an option!