Huge Monorail expansion?

tomm4004

New Member
If you go to the expense of expanding the monorail then one goal is to eliminate bus routes. However, I don't see how monorail expansion will do that. A bus from AK to MGM for instance would eliminate one bus route. Hardly a worthy trade.

The mods and values will not get a monorail as it would raise their prices out of the box.

Most of the bus routes now are from parks to resorts. I don't really see what extending the monorail from EPCOT to MGM and AK would eliminate as far as buses. The monorail at MK is necessary to get people to the park, but it's not at the other parks where the parking lot is right in front of the entrance. Having a monorail extend to Future World was appropriate both in theme and logistically at the time.

Even running a line from TTC to AK for the benefit of MK resort guests would only eliminate a couple bus routes and not be cost efficient.

Question: In the very early years, was there bus transporation from Poly and Cont to the Disney Village?
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
Originally posted by tomm4004


Question: In the very early years, was there bus transporation from Poly and Cont to the Disney Village?

I`m not sure - in the earliest property plans I have the road from Fort Wilderness down to The Village (now Vista Blvd./Bonnet Creek Parkway/Buena Vista Drive) has the central section marked as a broken line - either it was private, or under construction (going by the design of and the sign lettering of the Security Booth on Vista Blvd. its looks very much linked to the original EPCOT Center designs... which would perfectly place it in the EPCOT road network circa 1979-80)
 

donsullivan

Premium Member
For all of the discussion that crops up on this one about once a year or so it seems that nobody every actually thinks through the practical issues of all the variations on a theme discussed here.

While I've seen the property maps with the proposed future monorail line that passes through Epcot, over to the Epcot Resort area and then on to Studios, I don't anticipate we'll ever see it happen; just think of the practical reality of such a proposal and tell if you wouldn't find yourself compaining even more if they didi it.

- Just suppose they extended the Epcot beam over to the Studios and AK. What about the Epcot Resort area hotels? Wouldn't it be expected that these be connected to the system as well? Well with hotels on boths sides of the lagoon, where to you put the beam and station to support all of these guests? The hotels were not designed to support the monorail services like MK resorts where lobbies are on upper levels and the like to support such services. Do you only put one stop and then everyone has to walk between all of those resorts to get to a central point to board a monorail. That's not likely to be terribly popular.

- Okay, let's continue our ride to Studios where we've got an entrance sort of similar (although different themeing) to the one at the front of Epcot. I've just left the Studios and want to go to Epcot, I've now got to get on the monorail, ride it all the way down to AK and then does it go over to AK Lodge? (Talk about destroying a theme) and after we've finished up there, we then head off for the 4+ mile journey up to TTC, to load and unload guests, then the 2-1/2 mile journey back to Epcot.

- Or how about the scenario where I'm at the Magic Kingdom and want to get to AK. Does that now mean that I take one monorail to TTC and then ride 7 miles across all those other stops until I get there? Not likely....

- Well one scenario says an additional TTC would be built at Epcot. Okay, so now on my trip from MK to AK I've got to change trains and wait in line twice. I don't think so.

What all this ranting is about is practical reality here folks. Separating the fact that building a monorail system even as simple as what Disney mapped out in the late 80's is prohibitively expensive. Remember the beam alone cost $1 million dollars per mile in 1980 when they were building Epcot. That does not include stations or good heavens the trains.

And even if you ignore the economic reality of this, the development that has evolved throughout the property over the last 30+ (Take a look at an actual property development map) years simple prevents a monorail system from making any sort of practical sense. There are so many diversely located spaces that Guests must move between there is not enough traffic between any combination of them to make such a system operate efficiently. And when I speak efficiently here I'm not even talking about economically for Disney but comfortably and efficiently for Guests visiting the Resort.

While I'm sure Disney is always looking at new techniques to improve the efficiency of guest movement throughout the property this sort of invesment just doesn't make any sort of sense to me at all.

Just my thought on the topic.
 

tomm4004

New Member
And even if you ignore the economic reality of this, the development that has evolved throughout the property over the last 30+ (Take a look at an actual property development map) years simple prevents a monorail system from making any sort of practical sense.
Excellent post. In hindsight, what may have made sense was to have built MGM on the monorail line north of EPCOT Drive and east of World Drive. There seems to be land there. But you're right, everything is too spread out. There are too many hotels and water parks, etc. and I don't see them all getting stations.
 

cloudboy

Well-Known Member
Have you ever used a Metro system before? Most systems have more than one line. There are many ways of doing it, but likely would be resort busses would lead to one super station (probably somewhere central, maybe NW of Epcot). A Monorail (or could be light rail) would lead out from here to each park. Since more people are using the system, you can increase the number of vehicles. No two points, assuming that they get rid of the current TTC) is more than one connection away. It may be easier to think of this if all the parks were conneted by subway, even if you can't build a subway in central Florida.

P.S. Continuing on through Epcot is just considered an option because at one point before any of the resorts or anything else were planned that is where they thought the monorail might go.
 

paulcmartens

Account Suspended
lobbys...

I don't know where you've been lately...but at the Grand Floridian...the lobby is not on level 2...level one.

Contemporary...lobby is not on monorail level, but way, way below.

Poly....havn't been inside in years...but I guess that guest registration is not on the line level.

Its o.k. to include only one resort on the epcot line....(ignore the tishman properties) yacht and beach....Boardwalk can just walk or take a boat to the yacht.

You could always expand the epcot...

I don't know why I'm arguing!

Your argument is totally illogical. You are looking for rational sollutions for a themepark? :rolleyes:

There never was anything practical or logistically safe built on that property...ever anyways!

P.

And I like that.

:sohappy:
 

donsullivan

Premium Member
You are using a very literal interpretation of Lobby meaning only the exact space where the Registration desk is located.

I'm using it in the sense of the major public space in each location. I've been to all of these Resorts countless times and quite recently.

- GF Monorail Station is on Level 2 and opens into the grand lobby with the Gift Shop just inside the station on the right, overlooking the first floor of a multi-story lobby.

- Polynesian is on Level 2 with restaurants and shops on that level. Again, opening to a 2 story Rain Forest at the center that helps make up the entire main public space.

- Contemporary is on the 5th Level overlooking the major public space of the Grand Canyon Concourse with it's restaurants, lounges and shops which is on Level 4.

So what! This wasn't the point of the discussion anyway, just a reference to the practicality from a Guest Experience standpoint of some of the variations on the theme of Monorail Expansion that have spread throughout this discussion and come up about once a year.

The underlying point is that the way the property has developed since the last master plan for monorail expansion was developed in the early 80's, the monorail would no longer make sense as an efficient way to move people to and between the places that they want to travel throughout the WDW Resort Complex.

Could a plan be developed that would make it so? Certainly, but then we enter into the level of redesign of the current infrastructure plus development of the new that is so insanely cost prohibitive it just falls off the table really early in the discussion.
 

paulcmartens

Account Suspended
again...

again..practicality is the last argument you should be using for a theme park/resort.

Is monorail itself practical? no...
Is having a them park in orlando practical? no...
Was buying up 27 000 acres for themed experience practical in the first place? no...

what are you, an accountant, lawyer? :kiss:
 

mkt

Disney's Favorite Scumbag™
Premium Member
another person falls for the ever popular monorail expansion rumor...

:lol:
 

no2apprentice

Well-Known Member
Okay, let's not think about the $800 million to $1 billion price tag for a comprehensive monorail expansion. Just for a moment.

As Tyler has pointed out in many threads, one of the major problems with a monorail system (or any fixed rail system) is that it cannot handle the traffic flow challenges at WDW. When the monorail was first built at DL, it had two stops: the park, and the hotel. This worked. But when there are multiple stops during high flow times, it doesn't work. It's not the same as having a metro-system. The link posted earlier has great explanations.

Why spend so much money on a transit design that won't work for WDW? If Disney can come up with an innovative way of moving people efficiently and make it "magical," more power to them. They probably can, given the budget. But for me, the "magic" goes out the window when at least $800 million is spent for something that doesn't work, when it could go to the existing parks.

I would love to see WDW come up with something innovative, but there are so many hurdles.

Monorail - efficiency and cost.

Light rail - if elevated, cost goes up. If on ground, working around existing roads. And since it's fixed, efficiency.

A people mover system - still a fixed system, less efficient than than a monorail or light rail.

Buses - while flexible and efficient, not a crowd pleaser that fits with Disney's image.

I hope Disney can figure something out. Whatever they do, will cost bucks. I just want the bucks to go for something that works.
 

cloudboy

Well-Known Member
Couple of things. First, the whole point to any mass transit system IS efficiency. Light rail, metro, and monorail are more efficient at moving a large group of people between two points. Simple matter of mass - boht systems, since they are guided, can handle larger numbers of passengers with one vehicle (or vehicle chain). Busses work when the load factors are low enough - onec you start getting higher load factors, busees become less and less efficient becasue each unit, which is by nature limited in length, needs it's own driver and propulsion, and has the added complexity of steering.

Are people under the impression that a monorail has to be at one height and can only run one simple route? Monorails can climb grades near 10% or more. they don't have to run elevated - you can put the beams at ground level. Singapore I think it is has a monorail that runs underground. And they are fully switchable - there is no reason why you need complex routing, and you can use double-ended monorails - I don't understand that argument.

When it comes to the number of resorts and destinations at Disney, it starts getting very difficult to work the logistics in a point to point manner. There are too many routes - look at how much space needs to be taken up at the bus stands at the park. It becomes too inefficient, and starts costing big bucks in the number of vehicles and road construction that is neeed.

I am surprised at how many people look at the monorail as a high-tech ride. In fact it is pretty simple, really - pretty much a bunch of busses strung together riding on rubber wheels on a concrete roadway. In this case the wide road is compressed into a beam, and instead of being steered by the driver it is guided by rubber guide wheels, but the basic system is still a powered wheel pushing against a concrete surface. Just with a funky shell.
 

marni1971

Park History nut
Premium Member
I`m of the opinion a WEDWay system from each destination, linked to central monorail terminals would work - Walt though so in his original EPCOT Center

1 They are low maintainence (few moving parts)

2 40% of the track magnets can go down and still run at normal capacity

3 they can travel quickly and silently

4 There can be ALOT of trains - always one at the station waiting. Constantly.

5 No holding up the flow of traffic as you board the waiting car - one of the breakthroughs of the revolving station platform and speed alteration of cars entering and leaving the staion. Plus - its dosn`t have to be a circular platform - could be a speed ramp.

6 Proven in the field. WDWs have been running for nearly 29 years, and the first commercial one was at Houston Airport (if I recall) in 1980.

7 Dosn`t have to have a covered track - the EPOCT Center cars ran on an open track, the cars themselves were enclosed.

8 Originally, part of WWD phase 2 was to have a WEDWay from the Contemporary to the Village - so long distances have already been thought about.

I`m not sure, however, what gradient they can handle - Tomorrowlands track seems roughly level. Disneylands did change height, but this ran on a totally different propulsion system.

Once you arrive at your monorail terminal you disembark the WEDWay and wait a short length of time for your monorail (mark 7? Or are we on 8 now - whats TDL got?) No express line - a double track with each direction stopping at every stop. However, there would only be a few stops (I guess the parks and Downtown Disney) since the WEDWAY gathers people from the resorts. This could also lend itself to solar power - an array running beside the WEDWAY track?? The ultimate clean transportation Walt wanted?

Lets say we have a Monorail Terminal at MGM and a second one at Epcot. This line just loops North - South from these 2 parks, and possibly down to Wide World of Sports. A line from Downtown Disney runs east to AK, with stops listed below (either loop or terminating at DtD and AK)

The DtD Terminal is centrally placed, or at one end (Westside?) with WEDWAY feeding to it from the Marketplace, and possibly a station in the middle of the Plaza hotels.

Typhoon Lagoon would have a Monorail stop, shared with Old Key West. Port Orleans would either share this, or WEDWAY over to the Epcot terminal.

Blizzard Beach, Coronado Springs, and possibly the Allstars would share a Monorail Terminal. AK Lodge would have a WEDWAY, like the other resorts, to the nearest Monorail Terminal - AK in this case.

Caribbean Beach and Pop Century would WEDWAY (possible a shared one - like the original EPCOT idea of stations mid line) to the MGM Terminal. And a WEDWAY loop round crescent lake could link the other Epcot resorts with the Epcot Terminal.

Wilderness Lodge could WEDWay to either the Contemporary or the T&TC, maybe Fort Wilderness would still need an internal bus network to get to its WEDWay station (same line a the Lodge).

With enough capacity (both in length of monorail and ammount of monorails and WEDWay cars) this could shift a HUGE ammount of people around - quicker than the busses perhaps(no stoppig at numerous resort stations - maybe resorts like CBR would need an internal bus loop to the Station at Centretown - no red lights, no conflict with tourist traffic etc.

Lets remember Walts original plan for WDW was no private vehicles - apart from EPCOT Residents who would have WEDWay as well - these would be left in the main parking area (somewhere around where MGM is today) and Monorail / WEDWay would do the rest.

I think this calls for a map - will put it in me album when its done...

As I said, just my humble opinion.
 

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