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Huge Monorail expansion?
- Thread starter KingCEO
- Start date
So if they can go anywhere but on property...
Thinking about it, I wonder if Disney feels that a new transportation system would be more likely to encourage guests to not rent cars and bring them on site. If the guests have cars, it is much easier for them to go off property for meals and supplies. If they have more people using the transportation system and not bringing cars to the resorts, they have to eat and buy merchandise on property.
Thinking about it, I wonder if Disney feels that a new transportation system would be more likely to encourage guests to not rent cars and bring them on site. If the guests have cars, it is much easier for them to go off property for meals and supplies. If they have more people using the transportation system and not bringing cars to the resorts, they have to eat and buy merchandise on property.
paulcmartens
Account Suspended
last time...
Last time we were at the parks...on a vk we rented a nice car. Initially we were at Carribean...but then switched to Grand Floridian...anyway...we used that car like nobodies business. Granted it was dead, Late Jan, but it was nice not to have to 'wait' for anything like a bus.
And we did spend money off the property.
Last time we were at the parks...on a vk we rented a nice car. Initially we were at Carribean...but then switched to Grand Floridian...anyway...we used that car like nobodies business. Granted it was dead, Late Jan, but it was nice not to have to 'wait' for anything like a bus.
And we did spend money off the property.
tigger1968
Well-Known Member
I think one thing that a lot of people forget is that the monorails are more than just transportation. They are also an attraction in and of themselves. In the original Master Plan presented in 1969, that point is made very clear: "By interconnecting the major areas, attractions, and accomodations of the Vacation Kingdom, the monorail serves a dual purpose. First, it provides a means of access to the theme park and hotels. Second, it will be an attraction in itself - an excursion tour introducing all the adventures awaiting the visitor in Walt Disney World."
Granted, there was just one park under construction at the time, and a handful of hotels planned, but this was a 20 year plan. I just would like to see the spirit of the plan continued. I don't think we need to connect every resort, as I agree with the premium nature of having a monorail stop at your hotel, but I would like to see all the parks connected in some way. I think that would be in line with what was originally envisioned.
Looking long term, I feel that busses will have to surrender some of their capacity to other modes of transportation, as traffic volumes will most likely continue to climb.
As to the cost angle, while I know the cost of monorail expansion would be greater, there needs to be consideration to the long term upkeep of a growing fleet of busses, as well as the roads they travel, not to mention the pollution they create. Those costs will only escalate in the coming years.
Lastly, to everyone who says there's no way to pull off an expansion due to the logistics, or park locations, or the costs, or for whatever reason you may think of to say it can't happen...
Aren't they still called IMAGINEERS?
Granted, there was just one park under construction at the time, and a handful of hotels planned, but this was a 20 year plan. I just would like to see the spirit of the plan continued. I don't think we need to connect every resort, as I agree with the premium nature of having a monorail stop at your hotel, but I would like to see all the parks connected in some way. I think that would be in line with what was originally envisioned.
Looking long term, I feel that busses will have to surrender some of their capacity to other modes of transportation, as traffic volumes will most likely continue to climb.
As to the cost angle, while I know the cost of monorail expansion would be greater, there needs to be consideration to the long term upkeep of a growing fleet of busses, as well as the roads they travel, not to mention the pollution they create. Those costs will only escalate in the coming years.
Lastly, to everyone who says there's no way to pull off an expansion due to the logistics, or park locations, or the costs, or for whatever reason you may think of to say it can't happen...
Aren't they still called IMAGINEERS?
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
True, but even imagineers cant change the foolish decisions made by tourists on a day in, day out basis.
tigger1968
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you meant. Are you saying that tourists can't figure out how to get around WDW? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't get what you are saying. Can you explain?
Thanks!
mickhyperion
Active Member
I like marni1971's plan. Definitely looks like a revised version of Walt's original intent.
I also wonder about just using the WEDway system everywhere instead of any additional monorails. It would eliminate the mass exodus problem at park closing. Put the Resort WEDway hub at Epcot - one leg going to south/west destinations, another leg going east. Similar to marni1971's plan but just using the WEDway.
I also wonder about just using the WEDway system everywhere instead of any additional monorails. It would eliminate the mass exodus problem at park closing. Put the Resort WEDway hub at Epcot - one leg going to south/west destinations, another leg going east. Similar to marni1971's plan but just using the WEDway.
Thanks. I used the monorail since it is the WDW transportaion `icon` - not to mention fun - and you only have to look at TDL to see a modern disney monorail (though I think the styling in Florida should be more `classic`mark V). Not to mention the Tokyo/Hitachi prices looking more reasonable per mile. And also since, yes, the original resort plans were for total monorail coverage (first from the parking lot / TTA to the industrial area, EPCOT, and the MK resort area, the second plan linking the MK resorts (Venitian, Tempo Bay (Contemporary),Persian, Golf and Asian with Tomorrowland).
I also used the WEDWay since , in answering an earlier question, it was Disneys version of LIM transportation, its cheaper and more reliable than light rail (especially the vehicles), its high capacity/low wait times and also in the -WDW resort environment of lots of kids - its relativley safe: no bus bar or overhead power lines (infact, no exposed power source at all).
However, I bet we will see Bald and Fire Mountains, Roger Rabbits Hollywood, Meet the World, The Matterhorn and Beastly kingdom all get built at once before we see a transportation system like this.... its good to dream though!
I also used the WEDWay since , in answering an earlier question, it was Disneys version of LIM transportation, its cheaper and more reliable than light rail (especially the vehicles), its high capacity/low wait times and also in the -WDW resort environment of lots of kids - its relativley safe: no bus bar or overhead power lines (infact, no exposed power source at all).
However, I bet we will see Bald and Fire Mountains, Roger Rabbits Hollywood, Meet the World, The Matterhorn and Beastly kingdom all get built at once before we see a transportation system like this.... its good to dream though!
Jusjuice
New Member
I think, instead of using the "same old" monorails to take you everywhere, they should have different ways to get between different places. An overhead trolley, like at Tokyo Disney Sea, could run between Epcot's World Showcase exit, through the boardwalk, down Sunset Boulevard at MGM and stop at MGM's entrance. It would fit in with all the areas!! Theme all the modes of transportation to where your going!! A trolley or train could run to Animal Kingdom, too.
paulcmartens
Account Suspended
that trolly idea isn't half bad. wow....interesting way to connect the two parks.
no2apprentice
Well-Known Member
I have, but the people standing in SM for over 75 minutes didn't.
How has Pal Mickey changed anything with the guest? Hard data, please.
I've got it. Connect all parks and resorts by waterways. Use hovercrafts. Unlike ANY rail system, one hovercraft goes down, the whole line is not stopped. Also can increase fleet for heavy demand hours.
Invero
Well-Known Member
I've been gone for awhile, and it seems another one of these wonderful threads has appeared. I don't have time to read every post in depth, but let me post a few thoughts:
- Whether it be Monorails, Buses, PeopleMovers, or whatever... it *MUST* be direct. NO transfers. This is above pretty much ALL else. The transfer from the Resort Monorail to the Epcot Monorail, or the MK Express to a connecting Epcot Monorail, or other theme park bus just does not work out for our guests. Guests would rather have a direct form of transportation than a "cool" one.
- In regards to capacities, while crush capacity of the current monorails are rated 364, average capacity is well below 300. The low-floor buses that Disney currently has handles an average of 80-90 guests at crush capacity. People don't like being crushed in on a bus, what makes you think they'll like it on a Monorail, either?
- For current and accurate numbers, check out the Las Vegas monorail system. They use Bombardier MVI trains (an enhanced version based off of Disney's design). Prices might be a bit more than you might think. (By the way, in the case of Vegas, thier system will work because it's designed along a strip, something that fixed guideways are great for)
- In regards to traffic... Buses are *NOT* the ones clogging the roads. Guest and cast member cars are. Remember, the Magic Kingdom parking lot alone holds 11,000 cars. Oh, and also remember that the average bus will take 20+ cars off the road.
- Park to Park routes are not the routes in need of a high capacity system. Value and Moderate resort routes are. Park entrances also do not have the real estate to acommodate more than one or two beams without the area becoming congested. With only two beams, you will either require guests to transfer, or for them to wait on a few trains before thier specific train arrives. (Thus adding confusion, since no one reads the signs)
- Value and Moderate resorts are the ones with the traffic that might warrant a high capacity system. However, being Value and Moderate resorts, they will not get an expensive amenity like a Monorail. If they did, they'd have to raise prices, thus defeating the pricing system.
- Current Deluxe non-monorail resorts were not designed to handle a monorail. You can't just plop down a beamway just anywhere.
- Fixed Guideway Systems are great from going from one point to one point, and making many stops along a straightish line. They are not good for going from one point to 19 scattered points. Combining routes is not the solution either. In addition to wanting direct transportation, they also want NON-STOP transportation. One or two stops can be done without sacrificing too much guest satisfaction, but more than that, and you're pushing it.
- Whoever says Monorails don't get stuck in traffic is not seeing the whole picture. Remember, monorails are fixed guideway systems. This means that they can't pass the train in front of them. If the train in front of them takes extra time inside the station (and beleive me, they will, guests are slow, and love to hold up trains), or if the train has technical difficulties (and it will), that backs up the entire system. I remember one night, I had to sit out on the beam with a fully loaded train for over an hour due to the train in front of me having technical difficulties. So while it might not be a typical traffic jam, Monorails do encounter traffic, and pretty regularly on our current system.
- I'm not saying buses are perfect, or are the ultimate solution. What I am saying is that neither is monorail, and for the time being, buses do a better job than they are given credit for.
- Lastly... Transportation CM's love to tell stories about the fabled monorail expansion. .01% of it might have some basis of truth, but the rest should be taken with a grain of salt.
Well, one more last thought... Just so y'all know, the general thoughts of guests at Walt Disney World are not always the same of the general consensus on here. So for example, just because everyone on here really likes something one way, doesn't always mean that the general consensus of Walt Disney World guests will be the same.
- Whether it be Monorails, Buses, PeopleMovers, or whatever... it *MUST* be direct. NO transfers. This is above pretty much ALL else. The transfer from the Resort Monorail to the Epcot Monorail, or the MK Express to a connecting Epcot Monorail, or other theme park bus just does not work out for our guests. Guests would rather have a direct form of transportation than a "cool" one.
- In regards to capacities, while crush capacity of the current monorails are rated 364, average capacity is well below 300. The low-floor buses that Disney currently has handles an average of 80-90 guests at crush capacity. People don't like being crushed in on a bus, what makes you think they'll like it on a Monorail, either?
- For current and accurate numbers, check out the Las Vegas monorail system. They use Bombardier MVI trains (an enhanced version based off of Disney's design). Prices might be a bit more than you might think. (By the way, in the case of Vegas, thier system will work because it's designed along a strip, something that fixed guideways are great for)
- In regards to traffic... Buses are *NOT* the ones clogging the roads. Guest and cast member cars are. Remember, the Magic Kingdom parking lot alone holds 11,000 cars. Oh, and also remember that the average bus will take 20+ cars off the road.
- Park to Park routes are not the routes in need of a high capacity system. Value and Moderate resort routes are. Park entrances also do not have the real estate to acommodate more than one or two beams without the area becoming congested. With only two beams, you will either require guests to transfer, or for them to wait on a few trains before thier specific train arrives. (Thus adding confusion, since no one reads the signs)
- Value and Moderate resorts are the ones with the traffic that might warrant a high capacity system. However, being Value and Moderate resorts, they will not get an expensive amenity like a Monorail. If they did, they'd have to raise prices, thus defeating the pricing system.
- Current Deluxe non-monorail resorts were not designed to handle a monorail. You can't just plop down a beamway just anywhere.
- Fixed Guideway Systems are great from going from one point to one point, and making many stops along a straightish line. They are not good for going from one point to 19 scattered points. Combining routes is not the solution either. In addition to wanting direct transportation, they also want NON-STOP transportation. One or two stops can be done without sacrificing too much guest satisfaction, but more than that, and you're pushing it.
- Whoever says Monorails don't get stuck in traffic is not seeing the whole picture. Remember, monorails are fixed guideway systems. This means that they can't pass the train in front of them. If the train in front of them takes extra time inside the station (and beleive me, they will, guests are slow, and love to hold up trains), or if the train has technical difficulties (and it will), that backs up the entire system. I remember one night, I had to sit out on the beam with a fully loaded train for over an hour due to the train in front of me having technical difficulties. So while it might not be a typical traffic jam, Monorails do encounter traffic, and pretty regularly on our current system.
- I'm not saying buses are perfect, or are the ultimate solution. What I am saying is that neither is monorail, and for the time being, buses do a better job than they are given credit for.
- Lastly... Transportation CM's love to tell stories about the fabled monorail expansion. .01% of it might have some basis of truth, but the rest should be taken with a grain of salt.
Well, one more last thought... Just so y'all know, the general thoughts of guests at Walt Disney World are not always the same of the general consensus on here. So for example, just because everyone on here really likes something one way, doesn't always mean that the general consensus of Walt Disney World guests will be the same.
All right, here we go.
But are you comparing this against waiting for the right bus to come? Again, if you have ever paid attention to some of the more complex rapid systems out there, you see that if someone has the choice of waiting for the right train to come, or hoping on the next train with a quick and simple transfer and get to their detination that much quicker, guess what they choose? This argument keeps getting presented time and time again and time and time again it gets disproven. Read about the Boston Silver Line.
Disney is currently using Bombardier monorails. They aren't the only ones who make them. The Hitachi numbers look much better. And the Las Vegas monorail, if you have studied it, is a terrible example - it was terribly mismanaged and considered by many wasteful. I will dig up a good link on this later. In a couple of the links I posted before you get a better idea of project costs.
They make these neat things called switches. Which allows a train to go from one rtack to the other in case of a breakdown. And what is the difference between bus in the station issue? It's not like a bus can pull in if there is another one there. It's a matter of spacing. And higher capacity means fewer vehicles.
In some cases you are right. In fact in a lot of cases, I think that busses are terribly misused and mismanaged. The whole idea that a bus is this overgrown car that has to get stuck in traffic like everything else and just pulls over to the side of the road is a major mistake. Why don't cities use more routes that have stations off the main road, stations clearly marked, frequent service, and a map of all station locations? I am not talking about a full blown BRT system, just better bus service.
I think that this is a grest deep discussion with reasonable arguments and not a lot of name calling. I appoligize if anything I said earlier in the thread was offensive - I did not mean it that way, only as a way to put things in perspective.
Your turn to refute my arguments!
But are you comparing this against waiting for the right bus to come? Again, if you have ever paid attention to some of the more complex rapid systems out there, you see that if someone has the choice of waiting for the right train to come, or hoping on the next train with a quick and simple transfer and get to their detination that much quicker, guess what they choose? This argument keeps getting presented time and time again and time and time again it gets disproven. Read about the Boston Silver Line.
Disney is currently using Bombardier monorails. They aren't the only ones who make them. The Hitachi numbers look much better. And the Las Vegas monorail, if you have studied it, is a terrible example - it was terribly mismanaged and considered by many wasteful. I will dig up a good link on this later. In a couple of the links I posted before you get a better idea of project costs.
I realize you havn't looked at the proposed routes yet, so I will sumarize for you - resorts will have bus or people mover connections to the hub, which will likely be at Epcot. What this means is: Busses will be more efficient - you just take the next bus, you don't have to run a separate bus for each park; The main connection will be between the resorts - since everyone will be connecting to Epcot, everyone who is going to another park will be on the monorail (or train - see another thread); and you don't need to be building monorail platforms at every resort. In fact the only resorts to see a different service in most plans are the ones around Epcot.
Which comes first, the chicken or the eggs? Fact is traffic is traffic. Which is exactly why cities are turning away from the BRT systems. They are finding that people are just not attracted to them like they are a regular transit system, and so it does not cut down on traffic as much. If you increase bus traffic, you need more road capacity. Well, that's not necesarily true - the density at WDW is pretty light in reality. But it seems that the approach is to make roads way too wide so unless they change their mindset they would be expanding the roadways.
Again, look at some of the proposals.
They make these neat things called switches. Which allows a train to go from one rtack to the other in case of a breakdown. And what is the difference between bus in the station issue? It's not like a bus can pull in if there is another one there. It's a matter of spacing. And higher capacity means fewer vehicles.
In some cases you are right. In fact in a lot of cases, I think that busses are terribly misused and mismanaged. The whole idea that a bus is this overgrown car that has to get stuck in traffic like everything else and just pulls over to the side of the road is a major mistake. Why don't cities use more routes that have stations off the main road, stations clearly marked, frequent service, and a map of all station locations? I am not talking about a full blown BRT system, just better bus service.
I think that this is a grest deep discussion with reasonable arguments and not a lot of name calling. I appoligize if anything I said earlier in the thread was offensive - I did not mean it that way, only as a way to put things in perspective.
Your turn to refute my arguments!
WDWhumanmap
New Member
it was supose to start after 1998 when DAK finally opened it was time to connect all four parks which is insane DAK is nowhere near the others unless its going to be all joined at TTC. well i think its a waste of money imho that can be used to help out other WDW causes.