Huge Monorail expansion?

[tomm4004]

A productive discussion!

Busses will be more efficient - you just take the next bus, you don't have to run a separate bus for each park;

Ah, man! No more standing on my tip-toes as the bus rounds the trees at the Wilderness Lodge saying, "nope that's not ours. Nope, that's not ours." No more wondering if two or three more D-MGM buses will come before your AK bus does! Where's the fun?

 

[WDWhumanmap]

beyond that there are already buses connecting you to everything they even got an internal park bus that takes you from DAK to MGM to Epcot and back again.


beyond that why speaking of buses why is blizzard beach w/ DAK??? has anyone realized how stupid that is at least PI Marketplace and typoon are in the same quad area. i mean people whom stay at boardwalk could ask for a walkway built to BB and they could walk it quicker its right over the highway for them.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by cloudboy
Again, if you have ever paid attention to some of the more complex rapid systems out there, you see that if someone has the choice of waiting for the right train to come, or hoping on the next train with a quick and simple transfer and get to their detination that much quicker, guess what they choose? This argument keeps getting presented time and time again and time and time again it gets disproven. Read about the Boston Silver Line.

But here's the thing... You're comparing people who use the MBTA on a daily basis, sometimes for years at a time. They know the system backwards and forwards. Here at Disney, you have folks who have never been here before, never used public transit, and have FAR different expectations. While a transfer might be acceptable for a public transit system, it's not for Disney. I've actually seen guests pay for a cab to get back to the Contemporary, rather than take the Monorail from Epcot.

Originally posted by cloudboy
I realize you havn't looked at the proposed routes yet, so I will sumarize for you - resorts will have bus or people mover connections to the hub, which will likely be at Epcot. What this means is: Busses will be more efficient - you just take the next bus, you don't have to run a separate bus for each park; The main connection will be between the resorts - since everyone will be connecting to Epcot, everyone who is going to another park will be on the monorail (or train - see another thread); and you don't need to be building monorail platforms at every resort. In fact the only resorts to see a different service in most plans are the ones around Epcot.

So, here's my question... the way I understand your plan, is that guests wait in a huge line to exit the park via Monorail. Take the monorail to the hub, and then exit, wait in another huge line for a bus (since MK, EC, and ST will be all closing at 9:00pm in this hypothetical and probable example). So now, they've waited in two huge lines, and STILL have to take the bus. Now, it's taken then twice as long to get home. I fail to see how this would be better.

Originally posted by cloudboy
They make these neat things called switches. Which allows a train to go from one rtack to the other in case of a breakdown. And what is the difference between bus in the station issue? It's not like a bus can pull in if there is another one there. It's a matter of spacing. And higher capacity means fewer vehicles.

I don't quite agree with what you're saying. First off, Disney switches are different from normal switches. Disney policy states that they must use cold switches, instead of hot switches. This means that the switch time is a lot longer than most other switches, and more complicated as well. But we'll hypothetically say that Disney has gone to hot switches. What are we going to have, random spur lines all over so that a train can bypass another train? Those can add up astronomically, and are really a waste of money, IMHO. I mean, you never know where a train will die, so you never will know where to build them. And if a train dies in the station, you certainly can't bypass that. As for a buses... all of our stops can handle multiple buses. So while one bus is stopped, and taking some extra time to load a guest in a wheelchair, the bus behind can still pull up into the same stop, load, and pull out and bypass. Even if a bus is in a single berth, another bus can pull to the outside of the 1st bus.

And higher capacity does not always mean fewer vehicles. Just means potentially longer dwell times.

 

[tomm4004]

I fail to see how this would be better.

Big agreement from me, actually. If I'm going from AKL to MK and am taking a bus anyway, I want to snooze and have someone wake me when we get there. I do not want to go to the EPCOT monorail hub and wait and transfer. At Disney, transferring is the big time consumer. Once you're on the vehicle and it's moving things are fine. And I can't imagine that the people with tons of strollers and gear want to transfer either.

Plus, imagine at MK all the people taking buses to leave now waiting for the monorail.

 

[marni1971]

So stay in bed for 10 minutes longer and snooze there!

There is no way each location would be linked to each location - way too expensive (even the TDL Hitachi Monorail comes in at a `cheap` $15 million per Km, the WDW / Las Vegas Mk5/6 at around $68 million per Km and the Las Vegas / MGM mk4 $25million per km). Hubs and changing lines is a way of life for anyone who uses any mass transit system in the `real` world. In the `ideal` world, no changes would be needed, but even in WDW this isn`t impossible - just impractable. Not to mention what a mess it would make of the landscaping!

 

[garyhoov]

Let's play around with some rough numbers. I'm pulling these completely out of my butt, so I'd welcome any better numbers or estimations anyone has.

I don't know the maximum capacity of Magic Kingdom, but I'm guessing in the ballpark of 50,000. On a heavy day, I'd guess about 2/3 of them (33,000) are leaving after the fireworks. Of those, I'd guess another third would be driving leaving approximately 22,000 to take the monorail.

Assuming you've got plenty of Monorails running, I'd guess the absolute minimum turnover time (doors open, wheelchairs board, then everyone else crams in and find spots for themselves and the $300 worth of stuff they just bought, doors close, monorail pulls out, next monorail pulls in, doors open) would be roughly 3 minutes.

22,000 people divided by 364 maximum capacity gives a total (under ideal circumstances) of approx. 60 monorails full. 60 monorails times 3 minutes gives 180 minutes or 3 hours. 3 hours loading time plus another, say, 30 minutes for travel time and transfers would be pretty long if you asked me.

The capacity of the current system would have to be greatly increased. I'd say at least 10 times better than it currently is to get wait times down to 18 minutes (even that seems a bit long to me if you will also still need to transfer).

 

[no2apprentice]

Originally posted by Invero
- Fixed Guideway Systems are great from going from one point to one point, and making many stops along a straightish line. They are not good for going from one point to 19 scattered points. Combining routes is not the solution either. In addition to wanting direct transportation, they also want NON-STOP transportation. One or two stops can be done without sacrificing too much guest satisfaction, but more than that, and you're pushing it.

I think Tyler makes a strong point. All things being considered, I think guest satisfaction is going to be the greatest challenge if WDW decides to do something dramatic with resort transportation. Initially, my biggest concern about any expansion was cost, and how this would effect resort prices. But there's always the possibility that Disney might figure out a way to do a transportation expansion with minimal impact on resort cost (don't ask me how, but anything is possible).

But after considering how people can be, and from what I've seen myself first hand, the key to having a successful expansion, no matter what system(s) are utilized, is a design that has a minimum inconvenience and confusion for the guest.

I really believe more people would be very content riding a bus for 10 to 15 minutes, then spending 30 to 40 minutes riding an alternative system with two transfers. I'm not saying that it's not possible for WDW to come up with a better system...it's going to take a lot of creativity and money. And the more creative it gets, the more money it will take.

Besides, I still like my waterway/hovercraft idea. ;-)

 

[Jusjuice]

For now, maybe they should stick to something simple, like boats. they could run a canal from the Animal Kingdom Lodge to AK, then to Coranado Springs, and maybe Blizzard Beach. It bugs me to have to take a bus from AK to AKL!

 

[marni1971]

You want real confusion? Bring back the coloured pendants that used to classify the bus servcie!

 

[Bill]

If Disney sells ABC, the cost for all the expansion would be covered.:lol:

 

[Nansafan]

Originally posted by marni1971
You want real confusion? Bring back the coloured pendants that used to classify the bus servcie!

:lol: :lol: :lol: Were we on the bus with the yellow flag with the green stripe or the green flag with the yellow stripe?:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Bill]

Stripes... and
Bus Blue
Bus Black
and Bus Plaid
And un What? What? Wait a second! What, what's goin' on? But all da colors!
Bus blue, red, green, green, white, white, black, black?!

What? Dis, whatever happened to just plain old, bus lavender blue dilly dilly dilly dilly, dilly, silly?

:lol:

 

[marni1971]

:lol:

 

[cloudboy]

Agreed, the MK is probably the most difficult one of the all to figure out. The things I am thinking of to fix this are: 1) trains running to Epcot are express to Epcot - no transfer at the TTC.
2) which means that people going to the parking lots have to use the local. This still isn't ideal, but I think if that line had incread trains and shoter waits between trains could handle it. I would probably also add a shuttle to Wilderness Lodge and Fort Wilderness instead of going all the way down to Epcot. 3) Larger trains. If you were willing to stretch the loading platform from here to eternity you could concievably run foour car trains, and at peak times couple two together.

As far as the switches go, all I am thinking of is a few scissor switches betweenthe two lines. In the case of an emergency, yes it would slow things down until the disabled train is moved, but you just switch over to the other track and run one track through that section.

I agree that in Boston people are used to the transit system, but I think it is a lot less complicated than people are thinking it is. The system that was proposed, at least how I interpreted it, would have one main line that would connect all the parks. If it's a park, it's one of the stops on the monorail. Everything else is served by a bus from the Epcot stop. In the morning you get on a bus - there's no need to figure out which bus - and you go to the Epcot station (bus will probably be called Hub). If you go to Epcot, just walk in the gate. Otherwise go up the stairs or ramp and get on the monorail, and get off at your park. Coming home you get off the monorail and get on the bus for your resort. Yes that is more people, but rememer you have three extra busses now that you don't have to service four separate resorts - more capacity.

Oh, by the way that article on the major cost overrun for the Las Vegas Monorail...http://nj.npri.org/nj00/03/moolahrail.htm

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Being from Boston, I can tell you...the Metro system here is incredibly good...when it's working. If a train goes down, or there is a medical emergency...it seems as if everything comes to a halt. (Buses need to be used).

That being said...Boston's "traffic flow of people" is greatly different from those at WDW. Yes, people get up early and commute in...so there is a high volume during the morning rush...Yes, people do ride it all day long...getting into and out of the city. Here is where it differs. When the work day gets out...People all board the trains...and...the trains fill up pretty quickly. But, they all get on at different stops...it's not one mass of thousands and thousands of people in line waiting for a single train. (Like Tyler said...first comers to Boston can get confused...granted, it's laid out by color and is fairly simple...but a first timer could easily get confused...which is what a lot of WDW guests are...first timers)

If you find the happy medium between train/monorail and bus...you can have it work at WDW. The layout of the resort though...would make it really tough and you could not compare it to Boston's system. Boston's "hub" is not one station...per se ...but one area...and it's located at the "downtown" section of the city...which is the most popular.

Here is the way the MBTA map lays out.

 

[cloudboy]

And even in that sense it is hardly a hub area. I am not suggesting that the layout of boston would work at all. I only used it as a comparrison of people being able to find their way on a transit system.

btw I was down by the (ex-)artery yesterday in like 4 months - wow! with the artery gone that is like a whole new planet!

 

[Bill]

Originally posted by marni1971
:lol:

At least someone knew what I was talking about.:lol:

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Originally posted by cloudboy
And even in that sense it is hardly a hub area. I am not suggesting that the layout of boston would work at all. I only used it as a comparrison of people being able to find their way on a transit system.

btw I was down by the (ex-)artery yesterday in like 4 months - wow! with the artery gone that is like a whole new planet!

It's not a hub in the sense that there is one station that everyone leaves from...but it's a "hub" in the sense that it's an area where they all connect to. (Heck, to Bostonians...that area of Government Center is called "The Hub" :lol: )

(I wasn't posting it because I thought you meant the layout would work in WDW...I was posting it so others that did not know about the MBTA system would know what we were talking about)

Yes, it seems to be coming together all at once lately Boston is actually going to be a real "pretty city" once they completely rip down the elevated roadways. The new bridge is beautiful, some of the buildings that have been built and the ones going up now are architecturally beautiful (aside from the one I'm working on...but that's not really "IN THE CITY") Where the old elevated expressway WAS...it's going to be mostly "greenspace." (Hehe, there's an ongoing joke here..."The big dig won't help the traffic problem...it'll HIDE the traffic problem" (From the traffic copters...you won't be able to see the traffic...because it's all underground)

Traffic Reporter: Well, everything looks just fine on the roads today...up until the tunnel...after that...you guys are on your own!

 

[tigger1968]

Once again, we have successfully beaten this topic to death...:lookaroun

 

[Bill]

I'm still amazed at the Big Dig. But for WDW, a Monorail and WEDway combo would work the best. Monorail connects all 8 Parks & Nightlife Areas, and WEDway connects to Resorts.

Heck, that would work even without WEDway. Though, I think you'd have to have a double track making a big loop everywhere. And the MK stop would just be at the TTC. There would be some interesting extensions though. For instance, the Epcot Monorail would be quite different. lol. It wouldn't exist, though the track would need to be altered greatly... gotta have 4 tracks heading up to TTC rather then 2 from Epcot. Not to mention faster trains. See, a loop would work, but it would have to be a double loop with trains going opposite directions.