Hank Scorpio
New Member
Yes well done!
It makes a change for someone to put their theory to paper so we can all see their ideas with our own eyes.
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Huge Monorail expansion?
- Thread starter KingCEO
- Start date
Yes well done!
It makes a change for someone to put their theory to paper so we can all see their ideas with our own eyes.
Wow. Very elaborate. Good job.
However, a couple things jump out if I'm reading it correctly. Guests going from All-Star to MK (lots of families with children) would have to WEDWAY to the monorail, take one or maybe two different monorails to EPCOT Station, take another to TTC, and another to MK. That's four transfers - all with strollers and kids, and bags. I just don't see that working.
Plus, even a WEDWAY and a linking to the monorail is going to add to the cost of those resorts and perhaps take them out of the financial box.
Also, I don't think the monorail to Wide World of Sports is necessary. Would this get much traffic?
If you run monorails to DTD, are you going to run them until 2am? This means they are operating a long time each day which raises maintenance and replacement costs for trains.
I also don't see the need for WEDWAY around the EPCOT resorts as there are boats which fit the theme better. Also, they could reinstate the trams if needed.
Still, it would be fun to see something like this happen!
However, a couple things jump out if I'm reading it correctly. Guests going from All-Star to MK (lots of families with children) would have to WEDWAY to the monorail, take one or maybe two different monorails to EPCOT Station, take another to TTC, and another to MK. That's four transfers - all with strollers and kids, and bags. I just don't see that working.
Plus, even a WEDWAY and a linking to the monorail is going to add to the cost of those resorts and perhaps take them out of the financial box.
Also, I don't think the monorail to Wide World of Sports is necessary. Would this get much traffic?
If you run monorails to DTD, are you going to run them until 2am? This means they are operating a long time each day which raises maintenance and replacement costs for trains.
I also don't see the need for WEDWAY around the EPCOT resorts as there are boats which fit the theme better. Also, they could reinstate the trams if needed.
Still, it would be fun to see something like this happen!
no2apprentice
Well-Known Member
Nicely done. Very well thought out. But...
What is the cost?
With a WEDWay system, how are you going to get around the existing roads? Over or under? If under, lots of high PSI concrete to deal with the water table. If over, then grade concerns.
One of the problems with multiple stops, is the peak crowds in the morning. A car pulls up to it's first stop at a resort in the morning. The car fills. Then the car goes to the next stop. No one can get on because the car is full. Then it goes to the third resort. Same problem. The next car fills at the first resort. The next two resorts see another full car go by. This would cause tremendous guest dissatisfaction.
Another problem that I see is if someone is staying at AKL, to use this system to get to MK, they will have to make four transfers. That would mean at least a forty minute trip, when it takes 15 by bus.
What is the cost?
With a WEDWay system, how are you going to get around the existing roads? Over or under? If under, lots of high PSI concrete to deal with the water table. If over, then grade concerns.
One of the problems with multiple stops, is the peak crowds in the morning. A car pulls up to it's first stop at a resort in the morning. The car fills. Then the car goes to the next stop. No one can get on because the car is full. Then it goes to the third resort. Same problem. The next car fills at the first resort. The next two resorts see another full car go by. This would cause tremendous guest dissatisfaction.
Another problem that I see is if someone is staying at AKL, to use this system to get to MK, they will have to make four transfers. That would mean at least a forty minute trip, when it takes 15 by bus.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Dont Monorails operate on a continious loop? YOu gotta go back to the drawing board.
PhotoDace: I thought - I may be wrong - Monorails could be driven from either end. Actually - they must do since the monorail barn is a terminus... problem solved!
Now, let me get my map up...
Guests would have changes from All Stars to the MK - no wonder I`m not a planner! Maybe the Monorail should run from Epcot to AK, with the Downtown line from Hotel Plaza Blvd. to MGM. That cuts out one transfer. Wide World of Sports can have a WEDWay to MGM, linking with the Pop Century WEDWay (assuming WWoS needs a link)
Running DTD monorails late would cut into maintainence, but I would have thought the equipment may be more reliable now. Or there could be a bus service from say midnight to 2am - there would need to be a bus service available at short notice anyway for the whole resort (like now) incase one of those lovely thunderstorms knocks out the power - If there were solar arrays, I doubt they could run the entire network! Obviously that gets into how many standby bus drivers etc. but thats outside this thread I think. Or is that a cop out on my part?
Point taken about the Crescent Lake Resort - I thought they may be a bit upset if they pay to stay at the Beach Club and don`t get a WEDWay, but All Stars do! I don`t know if water taxis would handle the volume of people in the peak rush? Trams would I guess, but would that add another form of transit to the masterplan which is based on clean, futuristic ways of travel? I`m sure, at the end of the day, Trams would replace WEDWay as much as possible anyway once the accountants see the bill!
I thought as much as possible of the WEDWay would be at ground level - obviously it would have to cross roads, and here I did plan on landscaped embankments and bridges - like a regular highway network. In areas of less traffic - say WEDWay did run round the Crescent lake resorts, an at grade crossing could be used with appropiate traffic control. Much like a give way junction on a road. Looking at the plan, there arn`t that many heavily traffiked areas the WEDWay would cross. Osceola Parkway, Buena Vista Drive at Blizzard Beach, Floridian Way and World Drive south of Seven Seas Lagoon. Think thats it - I would think the Caribbean Beach WEDWay could go under the existing embankment at Buena Vista Dr/Epcot Center Drive.
Capacity would be a major issue obviously. I`m sure there are people who get paid stupid ammounts of money per hour to do the math for this! Obviously, a large fleet of WEDWay AND Monorails would be needed, but Walts EPCOT Center did plan on its WEDWay system taking on the commute to and from work. Since each WEDWay is separate from the rest, each would have its own supply of cars. Compare this to the MK bus stop to the resorts about 30 minutes after Wishes! You can wait 15 minutes at Caribbean Beach at 7pm for a bus, so anything better than current wait times would be an improvement!
And lets remember - people would have the CHOICE of using their cars. We can`t just erase the parking lots - but we (WE? I sound like I`m an Imagineer.... that would be the day!) can try to entice them with a BETTER or more appealing form of transport.
Right... back to my map for a few changes... think I will call it the 4th preliminary transit plot masterplan and draw it on a napkin...
Now, let me get my map up...
Guests would have changes from All Stars to the MK - no wonder I`m not a planner! Maybe the Monorail should run from Epcot to AK, with the Downtown line from Hotel Plaza Blvd. to MGM. That cuts out one transfer. Wide World of Sports can have a WEDWay to MGM, linking with the Pop Century WEDWay (assuming WWoS needs a link)
Running DTD monorails late would cut into maintainence, but I would have thought the equipment may be more reliable now. Or there could be a bus service from say midnight to 2am - there would need to be a bus service available at short notice anyway for the whole resort (like now) incase one of those lovely thunderstorms knocks out the power - If there were solar arrays, I doubt they could run the entire network! Obviously that gets into how many standby bus drivers etc. but thats outside this thread I think. Or is that a cop out on my part?
Point taken about the Crescent Lake Resort - I thought they may be a bit upset if they pay to stay at the Beach Club and don`t get a WEDWay, but All Stars do! I don`t know if water taxis would handle the volume of people in the peak rush? Trams would I guess, but would that add another form of transit to the masterplan which is based on clean, futuristic ways of travel? I`m sure, at the end of the day, Trams would replace WEDWay as much as possible anyway once the accountants see the bill!
I thought as much as possible of the WEDWay would be at ground level - obviously it would have to cross roads, and here I did plan on landscaped embankments and bridges - like a regular highway network. In areas of less traffic - say WEDWay did run round the Crescent lake resorts, an at grade crossing could be used with appropiate traffic control. Much like a give way junction on a road. Looking at the plan, there arn`t that many heavily traffiked areas the WEDWay would cross. Osceola Parkway, Buena Vista Drive at Blizzard Beach, Floridian Way and World Drive south of Seven Seas Lagoon. Think thats it - I would think the Caribbean Beach WEDWay could go under the existing embankment at Buena Vista Dr/Epcot Center Drive.
Capacity would be a major issue obviously. I`m sure there are people who get paid stupid ammounts of money per hour to do the math for this! Obviously, a large fleet of WEDWay AND Monorails would be needed, but Walts EPCOT Center did plan on its WEDWay system taking on the commute to and from work. Since each WEDWay is separate from the rest, each would have its own supply of cars. Compare this to the MK bus stop to the resorts about 30 minutes after Wishes! You can wait 15 minutes at Caribbean Beach at 7pm for a bus, so anything better than current wait times would be an improvement!
And lets remember - people would have the CHOICE of using their cars. We can`t just erase the parking lots - but we (WE? I sound like I`m an Imagineer.... that would be the day!) can try to entice them with a BETTER or more appealing form of transport.
Right... back to my map for a few changes... think I will call it the 4th preliminary transit plot masterplan and draw it on a napkin...
M:SpilotISTC12
Well-Known Member
last year when i was on the boat going to the mk from with wilderness logde the monorail was going by and the captin said that they were going to expanded it but they arent because it costs a million dollars for a foot of monorail. this is all true. i hope they build one going from the airport to wdw because then people flying wont have to buy rental cars which cost money. if u use the buses in wdw and u hardly ever use the car its a waste of money.
Oh - and of course any non bus transit network would cost a lot of money. But do the pros outweigh the cons? I guess not yet, or all this would already have happened one way or the other..
M:SpilotISTC12 : I hope you mean a million dollars per MILE?? Or is that including inflation?
1st revision of map is now up in my album. Probably first of many!
M:SpilotISTC12 : I hope you mean a million dollars per MILE?? Or is that including inflation?
1st revision of map is now up in my album. Probably first of many!
What you need is a hub concept. Instead of having each resort on different lines, each resort would be connected to one centrally located hub. In my scheme it would be located just to the west of Epcot (unfortunately I did it in Illustrator trial and the trial period ran out before I had converted it to jpg!). From here you would then go to the parks. That way, whicle almost everyone would have to make 1 connection, nobody would have to make more than one. Not to mention that you get better efficiencies if you only have to run between two spots for the resorts and you can put stuff (stores, services, whatever) at the hub.
As far as people movers go, are you talking about that exact system or just a PRT/GRT system in general? There are lots of them out there - check out this link which shows a lot of them. http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/siteindx.htm.
The way I would see it working is that each terminal would have a holding area for maybe a dozen or so cars (the hub probably much more). As someone comes a car is puled from the holding area and is sent on it's merry way. When a car arrives people disembark and the car is sent to the holding bin. This way there is a continuous supply of cars and no waiting. And if you have a bunch of people going you can team the cars together in trains for more efficiency. The only problem wis that if you do anything other than end to end layouts you have to start worrying about switching the cars and letting each car know where to go.
And as far as the million dollars bit - where does this number come from? It's premanufactered concrete beams - these are standard (and cheap!) items! The expensive part only comes from footings, and even that can be significantly lowered by bringing the monorail beam closer to the ground. It is no more weight than a roadway.
As far as people movers go, are you talking about that exact system or just a PRT/GRT system in general? There are lots of them out there - check out this link which shows a lot of them. http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/siteindx.htm.
The way I would see it working is that each terminal would have a holding area for maybe a dozen or so cars (the hub probably much more). As someone comes a car is puled from the holding area and is sent on it's merry way. When a car arrives people disembark and the car is sent to the holding bin. This way there is a continuous supply of cars and no waiting. And if you have a bunch of people going you can team the cars together in trains for more efficiency. The only problem wis that if you do anything other than end to end layouts you have to start worrying about switching the cars and letting each car know where to go.
And as far as the million dollars bit - where does this number come from? It's premanufactered concrete beams - these are standard (and cheap!) items! The expensive part only comes from footings, and even that can be significantly lowered by bringing the monorail beam closer to the ground. It is no more weight than a roadway.
donsullivan
Premium Member
The millions of dollars thing for the beam is actually from Disney's own documentation surrounding the construction of the Epcot extension. They stated at that time that the beam alone cost $1 million per mile back in 1980/81 when it was being constructed.
That includes the site preparation work, electrical service infrastructure, switching systems necessary to move trains between beams, etc.. Given that nearly 25 years have passed since this it's not unreasonable to suggest that construction of a new infrastructure would be substantially higher than those numbers today.
Then when you consider the fact that the current Mark VI series of trains had an intitial acquisition cost of $3.5 million per train in 1989 when they were put into service we begin to start adding a whole lot of total expense that is simply not going to be terribly efficient use of Disney's money.
Especially when they can't even keep the rest rooms clean, or keep the bulbs on main street replaced.
That includes the site preparation work, electrical service infrastructure, switching systems necessary to move trains between beams, etc.. Given that nearly 25 years have passed since this it's not unreasonable to suggest that construction of a new infrastructure would be substantially higher than those numbers today.
Then when you consider the fact that the current Mark VI series of trains had an intitial acquisition cost of $3.5 million per train in 1989 when they were put into service we begin to start adding a whole lot of total expense that is simply not going to be terribly efficient use of Disney's money.
Especially when they can't even keep the rest rooms clean, or keep the bulbs on main street replaced.
disneyman23
New Member
i like the hub idea, seems pretty logical and the most efficient way of doing things
It's now the Walt Disney World Holiday Inn.
no2apprentice
Well-Known Member
For those who havn't read the link that PhotoDave posted earlier, here is a portion of what Tyler posted regarding the cost of a monorail expansion. For those not familiar with Tyler (his post name is Invero and he's not on the forums as much as he used to be) Tyler was a monorail pilot for about a year and then worked the buses. Here is Tyler's information:
Okay... I'll try my best to estimate a few costs... (Mind you, these are not solid numbers, but merely my best estimation based on factual numbers that I have seen, and my knowledge of Disney Transport & Monorails)
Monorail Trains -- $17m per train. I'm going to say we'd need 24 additional trains. That's $408 million right there, JUST for the trains alone. Never mind guideway, or stations. Guideway averages about $5m per mile. (I say average, because straightaways are cheaper... but curves/grades and special situations cost more). I'd guess we'd need approx 30 miles worth of guideway. About $150 million right there. Plus about $50 million for guideway within the resorts. (More on that later)
Now... We'd need to build a new train storage and maintenance facility. Those can get very expensive. Lots of switches, and lots of equipment. $10 million at least. Now, we have to build stations at the resorts, as well as a "Grand Central" type convergance point for all transfers. Now, keep in mind, I haven't even gotten into how on earth we'd fit a monorail into some of these resorts. Theming is a big element. And so is location. And they don't come cheap, either. We'll just say $200 million for all of the resort stations.
So far... thats $818 million dollars. And we haven't covered misc expenses, or "over budget"... because you know it'd run over budget. And, I didn't include replacement of our old trains. That would add an additional $204 million, which would make the grand total over ONE BILLION DOLLARS.
Okay, so yeah, maybe money does have something to do with it. But I can assure you... this system as I have described... would be the most efficient monorail system that they could build. However, it would take 2-3x as long to get to destinations, and require transfers. (two transfers to get to the MK... unless we rebuilt that system, which would cost another $50+ million.
By the way... Disney could buy about 65 busses for the price of one monorail. (not including guideway). Those 65 busses would have the flexibility to go anywhere at any time... bypassing other busses. Going off route to take someone someplace special. And most importantly... if one bus breaks down, they can quickly replace it. If one monorail breaks down, the entire system goes down.
Okay... I'll try my best to estimate a few costs... (Mind you, these are not solid numbers, but merely my best estimation based on factual numbers that I have seen, and my knowledge of Disney Transport & Monorails)
Monorail Trains -- $17m per train. I'm going to say we'd need 24 additional trains. That's $408 million right there, JUST for the trains alone. Never mind guideway, or stations. Guideway averages about $5m per mile. (I say average, because straightaways are cheaper... but curves/grades and special situations cost more). I'd guess we'd need approx 30 miles worth of guideway. About $150 million right there. Plus about $50 million for guideway within the resorts. (More on that later)
Now... We'd need to build a new train storage and maintenance facility. Those can get very expensive. Lots of switches, and lots of equipment. $10 million at least. Now, we have to build stations at the resorts, as well as a "Grand Central" type convergance point for all transfers. Now, keep in mind, I haven't even gotten into how on earth we'd fit a monorail into some of these resorts. Theming is a big element. And so is location. And they don't come cheap, either. We'll just say $200 million for all of the resort stations.
So far... thats $818 million dollars. And we haven't covered misc expenses, or "over budget"... because you know it'd run over budget. And, I didn't include replacement of our old trains. That would add an additional $204 million, which would make the grand total over ONE BILLION DOLLARS.
Okay, so yeah, maybe money does have something to do with it. But I can assure you... this system as I have described... would be the most efficient monorail system that they could build. However, it would take 2-3x as long to get to destinations, and require transfers. (two transfers to get to the MK... unless we rebuilt that system, which would cost another $50+ million.
By the way... Disney could buy about 65 busses for the price of one monorail. (not including guideway). Those 65 busses would have the flexibility to go anywhere at any time... bypassing other busses. Going off route to take someone someplace special. And most importantly... if one bus breaks down, they can quickly replace it. If one monorail breaks down, the entire system goes down.
cloudboy wrote:
What you need is a hub concept.
Ideally yes - thats what Walt had planned, but that would involve much more track (and thus more vehicles)
Spokes and wheels - an outer wheel, spokes to the central T&TC, and probably an intermediate hub. Thats a lot of stations!
maybe I will see if I can incorporate a hub basis into the 5th plan...
And cloudboy also wrote:
And as far as the million dollars bit - where does this number come from? It's premanufactered concrete beams - these are standard (and cheap!) items!
The beams believe it or not were far from standrad items. Not only were onyl a few beams identical to the others, they are made of a concrete case enclosing a lightweight composite honeycomb - strength and lightness. So they are actually hollow, with a special core - fittingly very spaceage for `69-70! Plus, the foundations for each pylon would need to be BIG due to the local landscape - its not exactly bedrock. For an idea - have a look at the aerial construction photos available of the MK. Between Seven Seas and the turnstyles. You can see the holes for the foundations - they have to be at least 30 foot square! Each one!
What you need is a hub concept.
Ideally yes - thats what Walt had planned, but that would involve much more track (and thus more vehicles)
Spokes and wheels - an outer wheel, spokes to the central T&TC, and probably an intermediate hub. Thats a lot of stations!
maybe I will see if I can incorporate a hub basis into the 5th plan...
And cloudboy also wrote:
And as far as the million dollars bit - where does this number come from? It's premanufactered concrete beams - these are standard (and cheap!) items!
The beams believe it or not were far from standrad items. Not only were onyl a few beams identical to the others, they are made of a concrete case enclosing a lightweight composite honeycomb - strength and lightness. So they are actually hollow, with a special core - fittingly very spaceage for `69-70! Plus, the foundations for each pylon would need to be BIG due to the local landscape - its not exactly bedrock. For an idea - have a look at the aerial construction photos available of the MK. Between Seven Seas and the turnstyles. You can see the holes for the foundations - they have to be at least 30 foot square! Each one!
Good point, these were built in 1970 and hollow beams were not exactly standard order back then, but then again I tend to doubt that any concrete prefab beams were available back then. And yes, I know that footings are pretty big down there, but I am not sure about 30ft square - not unless they were designed for someother kind of much heavier load. Ever try comparing it to a roadway?
As far as the hub concept that i am thinking of, you would put the hub just west of Epcot. From here you already have most of the monorail built to MK and Epcot - you just have to reconfigure the TTC so that the Epcot beam goes all the way to the MK. That ur upgrade the switch and run both lines off of it. You would then need one line to Studios, one to AK, and one to Downtown Disney. I have to make up another map in something and I will post it.
Now, back to Tyler. While I am impressed by his knowledge and experience driving the monorails and busses, he is NOT a transportation planner. And there are some serious issues with his numbers. First, 27 monorails is quite a huge number. You would not need any more to service Magic Kingdom NOR Epcot. So that means only to Animal Kingdom and Downtown Disney. And with a hub concept you get better utilization rates for them, too. Secondly, $17m for a train - where is this number from? I would love to see some price comparissons on this - I believe that Hitachi is doing a much betteer price on them, and provide a better product to boot.
Now what about Busses? Don't they need service and roadways too? Has anyone bothered to figure out how much the roadways cost? A Bombardier monorail has a cruch capacity about 380, where as the new Nova nusses (all I could find stats for) has a crush capacity of 80. That means you need 4 and a half busses to repalce one monorail. Not to mention the high gas costs, and the fact that you need a driver for each one. Oh, and the Hitachi Monorails have a crush load of 400, and can be coupled together.
As far as the support infrastructure such as stations, there is no difference between that and a bus. It all depends upon how fancy you build it. There is no reason the monorail stations cannot be as simple as the bus stations.
Look, if Busses were such a great alternative to every other transportation system out there, then nobody would be building things like Light Rail. But now suddenly everyone has discovered how expensive all these Bus Rapit Transit systems are in the long term and they are quickly changing over to light rail. Guess what - there is a lot more to a bus than just the vehicle. It is by nature more complex, requiring more service and maintenance. It requires roadways (look at how big the roads in WDW have to be to support the extra traffic), they require extensive handling facilities due to the large number of busses needed, and they use up a lot of fuel and have a high cost for operational personnel.
There are what - 15 bus resorts? even if you ran just one bus between each attraction, thats 75 busses. If you only ran one bus to a hub, you have cut that number by one fifth.
Hey, yeah busses are neat. But they aren't the be all end all.
As far as the hub concept that i am thinking of, you would put the hub just west of Epcot. From here you already have most of the monorail built to MK and Epcot - you just have to reconfigure the TTC so that the Epcot beam goes all the way to the MK. That ur upgrade the switch and run both lines off of it. You would then need one line to Studios, one to AK, and one to Downtown Disney. I have to make up another map in something and I will post it.
Now, back to Tyler. While I am impressed by his knowledge and experience driving the monorails and busses, he is NOT a transportation planner. And there are some serious issues with his numbers. First, 27 monorails is quite a huge number. You would not need any more to service Magic Kingdom NOR Epcot. So that means only to Animal Kingdom and Downtown Disney. And with a hub concept you get better utilization rates for them, too. Secondly, $17m for a train - where is this number from? I would love to see some price comparissons on this - I believe that Hitachi is doing a much betteer price on them, and provide a better product to boot.
Now what about Busses? Don't they need service and roadways too? Has anyone bothered to figure out how much the roadways cost? A Bombardier monorail has a cruch capacity about 380, where as the new Nova nusses (all I could find stats for) has a crush capacity of 80. That means you need 4 and a half busses to repalce one monorail. Not to mention the high gas costs, and the fact that you need a driver for each one. Oh, and the Hitachi Monorails have a crush load of 400, and can be coupled together.
As far as the support infrastructure such as stations, there is no difference between that and a bus. It all depends upon how fancy you build it. There is no reason the monorail stations cannot be as simple as the bus stations.
Look, if Busses were such a great alternative to every other transportation system out there, then nobody would be building things like Light Rail. But now suddenly everyone has discovered how expensive all these Bus Rapit Transit systems are in the long term and they are quickly changing over to light rail. Guess what - there is a lot more to a bus than just the vehicle. It is by nature more complex, requiring more service and maintenance. It requires roadways (look at how big the roads in WDW have to be to support the extra traffic), they require extensive handling facilities due to the large number of busses needed, and they use up a lot of fuel and have a high cost for operational personnel.
There are what - 15 bus resorts? even if you ran just one bus between each attraction, thats 75 busses. If you only ran one bus to a hub, you have cut that number by one fifth.
Hey, yeah busses are neat. But they aren't the be all end all.
Just did - my mistake. They look about 15ft square by about 10ft deep - its on the Project Florida film.
UNCANNY - thats what I just came up with. Plus some WEDWay feeders. Was going to draw a map but got abosrbed in a 2 year old thread about Monorail accidents... may get it uploaded tomorrow.
no2apprentice
Well-Known Member
Please tell us your experience as a transportation planner.
Please tell us your experience working with transportation within a major entertainment area with multiple parks and resorts.
Please tell us what monorail systems you have worked on.
Please tell us what the numbers are for the express loop between TTC and MK between 9 AM and 12 PM on a Monday morning during the summer.
I know what Tyler's answers would be. What are yours?
Bill
Account Suspended
It has been determined that all roads in WDW are very congested, and Busses are a big problem. There are plans to do a project in excess of one billion dollars. Disney believes they can afford this from what I hear. There are lots of things to consider, and there's no solid evidence that we will get more monorails. However, there is evidence that busses will not be the addition due to roadway costs & congestion.
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Based on materials ive been shown I will vouch for his numbers and can further speak to his nature as being an expert on this topic.
I suggest you start providing some credentials as to your expertise in an expedient manner.
No more than his. Which means that we are both voicing our opinions. That means you have to look at what data you have to back that up.
You just can't throw out numbers and then use that to support your conclusion that something is not economically viable. If you care to present that argument, then you have to have some kind of data to back that up. Where is that? If you do any research on the web you will discover that Hitachi is building monorails, and in some cases heavy guage monorails, in the $20 to $30 million/mile range. That is completely inclusive of vehicles, stations, and facilities. The numbers Tyler is presenting don't make any sense, and even he is saying that it is based on his estimations.
You drive a car - does that mean by default you know everything about road design? No. Nor am I claiming that I am an expert on transportation engineering. But unless I can see some kind of backup for figures, I am going to conclude that neither is Tyler and that his estimates have to be taken as that and are far from a perfect justification that monorails are too expensive.
You just can't throw out numbers and then use that to support your conclusion that something is not economically viable. If you care to present that argument, then you have to have some kind of data to back that up. Where is that? If you do any research on the web you will discover that Hitachi is building monorails, and in some cases heavy guage monorails, in the $20 to $30 million/mile range. That is completely inclusive of vehicles, stations, and facilities. The numbers Tyler is presenting don't make any sense, and even he is saying that it is based on his estimations.
You drive a car - does that mean by default you know everything about road design? No. Nor am I claiming that I am an expert on transportation engineering. But unless I can see some kind of backup for figures, I am going to conclude that neither is Tyler and that his estimates have to be taken as that and are far from a perfect justification that monorails are too expensive.
I drive WDW roads daily... and aside from the Hotel Plaza/Downtown Disney area, and on theme park exits... I disagree entirely.
And who has determined this?
they can afford it.. but for that much, they could easily build a new park, or fix most of the problems in the existing parks
WAIT A FRIGGIN MINUTE HERE!!!! Jon your "WDI source", and you, have both said in the past that the monorails will be extended... when did this about face happen. However... I will be nice and not call you a liar, since you have generally been pretty cool to me. But this definitely raises red flags now to me... many red flags.
actually.. if more busses service, then less people will drive.. thus less vehicles on the roadways. So yes, there would initially be more congestion, but once guests realize that there is more Disney Transportation available, then less people will drive and thus, less congestion.