Four Parks: One Stale World?

[EPCOT Explorer]

Happy thoughts!!!:wave:

 

[Disneyson 1]

Can we close this flame war please and discuss our hate of Disney on a board that actually tolerates you people... like Micechat or something?

 

[Missing20K]

I disagree with that statement as well!

Do you have any particular reason for disagreeing? Usually discussions involve someone stating an opinion (WDW1974) and one or more people presenting their opinion AND supporting evidence. All you have done in your posts is say you disagree and insult the person and their intelligence. Not only does that not contribute to a healthy conversation and discussion on ANY topic, it does not add much to society either.

I'll tell you this in case your mother never did...

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

And yes, I am aware of the fact that people here may not say anything nice about Disney, but there is a difference in critical thought and discourse, and "bashing." You, sir, have done nothing but bash people in this thread.

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

Are you dense or something?! WDW1974 is clearly anti-Disney...and so is this forum overall lately, which is why I don't come here so much anymore!!! :fork: :fork: :fork:

Well, no, his intentions are clearly pro-Disney, but postulating that current people in charge of the Company are not and the result of such management is showing in the parks. He is just presenting his case for how Disney should be. While most of us aren't quite as hardcore as him, I think many of us share a similar viewpoint, and won't stop being vocal about until we see that level of quality that the founder and his immediate successors mandated.

This board is REALLY going to Heck in a handbasket.

Yes, curse this damned stimulating exchange of information, ideas, and opinions.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Well, no, his intentions are clearly pro-Disney, but postulating that current people in charge of the Company are not and the result of such management is showing in the parks. He is just presenting his case for how Disney should be. While most of us aren't quite as hardcore as him, I think many of us share a similar viewpoint, and won't stop being vocal about until we see that level of quality that the founder and his immediate successors mandated.



Yes, curse this damned stimulating exchange of information, ideas, and opinions.

There is an SSE joke in there but I can't make it out...

*squints*:dazzle:


-:lol:

 

[EpcotServo]

I'll tell you this in case your mother never did...

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

YEAH! If ya can't say somethun' nice...uh...uuuhhh

Now boys, boys...if you all just stop carrying on like, we MIGHT just dedicate this next thread to ya'll.










And we so dedicate...

:lol:

 

[The Mom]

I know that there are passionate opinions on both sides, but you all MUST stop calling anyone who disagrees with you dense, moronic, etc.

Don't make me get out the belt!

 

[yankspy]

LOL absolutely! I just can't understand how WDW fans can visit a place that includes the Haunted mansion, Tower of Terror and Pirates and still find Buzz Lightyear, MILF and Dinosaur or even Soarin' to be anywhere close in camparison.

All we are saying is give quality a chance. Whatever happened to quality writing like we had for Cranium Command or Horizons. Now we get junk like Toy Story Mania, for example, that makes no sense at all. It would have been nice, just off the top of my head, if maybe we became the passengers on Barbie's car on a trip through Als Toy Barn. Great opportunity for comedy, game and adventure. Best of all the ride would have made sense and it would not just have been about the 3D video game. I enjoy the game as much as the next person, but when it could have been so much more, and for the same money, it is quite disappointing.

I agree with you regarding the video based attractions but even there, if the writing and content are done correctly, we can be happy with the presentation.

For all those fans that accept the mediocre quality, low budgets and corporate excuses I humbly suggest that if we all expressed our disatisfaction with the state of things as they are now maybe it would help drive some decisions in a different direction and we can all benefit with higher quality attractions. Even the most die hard fan can admit that they'd like more excitement, more attention to detail, and a higher level of creativity and craftsmanship in the new projects. If enough Ap holders continue to defend the company's actions or non-actions they will have no reason to change. Even if you're satisfied with the product don't you want Disney to deliver the best it can? If you knew there was so much more potential wouldn't you demand that? After all, that is what you are paying for.

I have to disagree on Dinosaur. Great ride system, one pretty impressive AA, just great fun.
As far as low budgets, I believe TSM had a 70 million dollar budget. I would not exactly call that low.

Am I the only one though who actually feels the least bit content with what's at Disney now? Sure, Laugh Floor and Everest may not exactly be the next POTC but they're FUN! Can't things just be FUN anymore?

No. I still get goosebumps when I walk down Main Street. But there are some things that many people feel need attention, and I would have to agree with some of them.

I would be surprised if anything major were to happen at WDW in the next year or more. You have to understand the current state of the economy. It reaches to more that just gas prices and consumer spending. At it's root we are in the middle of a credit crunch, which directly affects any building projects that Disney might have. Example:

Say Disney wants to build a new E-ticket attration. And that attraction is going to cost $50 mil. Well they don't have that $50 mil laying around, so they have to borrow it. However with the credit crunch they can't exactly just walk in the bank and grab it. Any lending agency will not be very open to loaning out a huge sum like that when they are near bankrupt as it is. Add to that the fact that less people are traveling and the bank sees this as a bad investment.

I want to see Disney expand as much as the next person, but finanically that is just difficult right now. It's not that Disney isn't making money, just that they don't have millions laying around to build attractions. Because of the finanical turmoil, they are doing the exact same thing that every other company is doing...wait and see. See what happens. To embark on major building projects right now is foolish. We have no idea if this economic crisis is a minor blip or a more long term situation.

I think that the basic flaw of thinking that Disney has to build something now is that it ignores the problem that is affecting every other company right now. I think that Disney is not building because they do not want to, but Disney is not building because they can not afford to.

As I said earlier, Disney has a lot at their disposal, even during tough times. If they really wanted to do something, they could find a way. There is always a way.

Can we close this flame war please and discuss our hate of Disney on a board that actually tolerates you people... like Micechat or something?

Who are you people? Many of us are just enjoying some friendly discussion.:shrug:

 

[Missing20K]

YEAH! If ya can't say somethun' nice...uh...uuuhhh

Now boys, boys...if you all just stop carrying on like, we MIGHT just dedicate this next thread to ya'll.










And we so dedicate...

:lol:

I didn't think I was carrying on, in fact that was the first post I made of that kind. I was just trying to defend having an open, stimulating, RESPECTFUL, discussion on the topic, and a particular poster had to resort to name-calling and insults, and not even have the backbone to actually post something with substance to back up his viewpoints. I guess I just couldn't sit idly by and let someone ruin what was a healthy conversation up to that point. My apologies to anyone offended by my posts. :wave:

 

[nibblesandbits]

I know that there are passionate opinions on both sides, but you all MUST stop calling anyone who disagrees with you dense, moronic, etc.

Don't make me get out the belt!

:lookaroun



(Come on...someone had to make a joke...)

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Again, opinion. I've been on Laugh Floor quite a few times, and not only did the crowd and I find it funny, every seat was full.

A response to this and the post after it:

A G-rated comedy club that has little to do with the future and replaced an attraction that I enjoyed considerably more has little appeal to me. It just uses the same technology as Turtle talk but lacks the one-on-one personal feel you get with the other show. Are people happy with it? Sure, but how many of those people went to see Timkeeper?

Theatre is full? Well if it only seats 400 (and that's on those benches that were not terribly comfortable or had any devisions for individual people) and is new and hyped on park maps I guess that makes sense. Some will argue it's more popular than Timekeeper, but how much advertising did that shows which had a 1,000 + person theatre get?

To me, MILF (which is the one thing that is funny about the show and I'm sure that was not intended) is one of those do-it-once-and-your-fine shows. what ever happened to attractions that had repeatability? Everest does, what can't MK get one?

 

[nibblesandbits]

So, in other words, Disney should not be allowed to do ANYTHING fun.

I have to comment on this...

It's not that I personally don't want anything fun...it's that I want everything to be Disney first class quality. That is where there are some things that are lacking. Even for me...who tends to usually like everything Disney does, I have some attractions that I think were done better than others.

Now, some of the newer attractions that I love, some others don't. I, for one, love Soarin. Think it's one of the best new attractions on property. I also really like Everest (when it's in A mode...B mode is ok.) I also really like things like Test Track, Mission: Space, and btw, Toy Story Midway Mania is one of the coolest rides on property, to me.

However, I could really take or leave Monster's Inc. I've seen it a few times, but if I miss it on my trip, it's really not a big deal. Another one that was recently put in that I could take or leave is Lights, Motors, Action...do I think it's better than what was there previously? Sure, but I think that there are some areas they could have improved. And I can definitely take or leave Stitch and the Tiki Room too. (Usually leave) Am I looking forward to something like American Idol? Yes, I am...I am one who is willing to give it a try, with an open mind. I will give it a fair shake and make a judgement call then. (Now, asking me if it was necessarily a smart idea for Disney to build it, is a total different story.)

However, I do want to point out that I am also one who believe that there is usually an attraction that somebody loves. So, while I might not love Stitch, there could be others who do. So, I try not to judge each attraction too harshly...unlike a lot of other Disney fans.

However, my problem becomes when it keeps seeming like each attraction being built nowadays doesn't have the pop that past attractions have had. Where people don't constantly go, "WOW!!! That was so cool!" There seem to be more "misses" for people than there used to be. That tends to be the problem. They don't seem to be plussing things as far as they could on some attractions.

Disney attractions are fun...but, for some, there is no "POP". That is why there are many who are upset with Disney's recent course of actions.

 

[SirGoofy]

A G-rated comedy club that has little to do with the future and replaced an attraction that I enjoyed considerably more has little appeal to me. It just uses the same technology as Turtle talk but lacks the one-on-one personal feel you get with the other show. Are people happy with it? Sure, but how many of those people went to see Timkeeper?

I see where you come from. I agree that it doesn't fit in Tomorrowland, which angers me, but I enjoy it more than Timekeeper. So personally, I'm okay with the theming blunder.

But again, I understand why you don't like it. I just wouldn't call it a failure. The guests seem to enjoy it.

And thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding about the CPs and other cast members everybody. :wave:

 

[WDWGoof07]

What I don't understand is why some posters can just say all of WDW's rides of this decade are mostly bad like it's a fact without any rebuttal. Those are not objective statements.

For instance, just because you don't like MILF automatically makes it bad? I think you can objectively state that this attraction does not fit Tomorrowland, but many WDW guests, including several on this board, do enjoy the attraction. It's all subjective. The same goes for anything else Disney has ever built or will build. I could say I hate HM (not really, just making an example). Does that make me wrong?

Now I hope we can put that argument to rest.

What is troubling is the WDW's lack of fresh attractions. As I said earlier, Disney can build all the DVC resorts they want, but sooner or later Disney is going to need to give its DVC members incentive to keep coming back. In a way, DVC is becoming for WDW what APs became for DL. Whether Disney likes it or not, Disney is going to be forced to add new rides and hold itself to higher standard because the DVCers will scrutinize every bit of WDW. They'll have higher expectations of Disney because they'll want their investment to be worthwhile. If Disney won't listen to the average guests, it will listen to the DVCers, and the last thing they'd want is a bunch of DVCers jumping ship when their contracts expire.

With new management, it sounds like the good times are rolling back on in. But Disney cannot afford to get cold feet because of the recession. If Disney's bookings and attendance for 2009 are hurting, the effects will hurt Universal, Sea World, and Busch Gardens even more. WDW is still the leader in Florida, and the competition leeches off guests who come primarily for WDW but spend a day off-property. People might not splurge for the tickets to go to Universal this time around and might elect just to stay on property. And yet, Universal and Sea World are still planning major additions. Why? Two reasons:

1. To compensate for decreased attendance from tourists, Universal and Sea World are aggressively trying to attract the locals. WDW needs to do this as well.
2. This recession is going to end. And when people start spending money again, who will they go to? The parks that were the same before the recession, or the parks that built something new? WDW can't let itself fall behind for when the recession ends. Now is the time to build.

Again, several insiders have indicated that a new management climate will bring Disney up to standard again, but Disney needs to get the ball rolling now (especially in MK...the flagship park deserves an E-Ticket after all these years).

 

[raven]

I believe you're referring to the MILF attraction. While some hate the attraction, I don't. I think it's a fun, funny, and enjoyable attraction. That said, I hate its location.

I have thought this too for a long time now. The word "Tomorrowland" implies futuristic. The Sci-Fi and Alien theme (Stitch and MILF) are actually "present day" if you watch the animated films on those attractions.

What Tomorrowland seems to be now to me is I-dunno-where-to-put-this-attraction land.

 

[kcnole]

What Tomorrowland seems to be now to me is I-dunno-where-to-put-this-attraction land.

I couldn't have put that any better myself. To be a bit fair however, its always had that problem to an extent. Have autopia or Carousel of Progress ever been truly futuristic. I guess at one point COP did have a futuristic ending, but that ending is now stuck in 1990's futurism. I still love COP (Its one of my favorite attractions) but it does definitely need to be updated to become futuristic again since pretty much everything in that ending has come to pass especially those awful Christmas sweaters.

 

[Rosso11]

Man that was an excellent post. You hit the nail directly on the head.

Thanks, and unfortunately this really is how the company has been run the past 10-15 years. I just feel bad for the people who have never had the chance to experience Disney when it was at its full potential. Its funny I have pictures from the mid 90's when I saw my first light bulb out on main street. I was shocked at the time and took a picture. Now its a regular occurrence. I also have a picture of the first dead tree I saw on property from the same time period. Wow, I think that makes me a little strange. But anyway, Disney's standards were legendary at the time and that was all part of the magic. The magic that is slipping a little bit at a time.

 

[disneychic71]

No. Actually 20 years ago they didn't all sell different crap. They had shops that sold higher quality products and products themed to the area they were located in. They helped tell the story.

Then the consultants came to power in the 1990s and suddenly every location had to meet specific financial goals. The consultants didn't understand the concept of show, of even having locations that weren't profitable on their own but added to the quality of the experience.

So that's why Main Street is nothing more than one sickening giant World of Disney crap outlet with meaningless facades

An interesting thread, and I have to agree with you here. I only visited a couple of times before the 90s, but I have noticed a decline in some areas, such as general cleanliness and oddball merchandising. As a "creative team" member in advertising, I can attest to the soul-crushing effect that the MBA marketers can have on any attempt at magic!


Because Disney used to have an image. That image involved attractive, professional looking CMs. This may not be politically correct (not that I give a flying you know what) but slovenly morbidly obese CMs do NOT portray a postive image. They portray the opposite. A sad one.
I can't agree with you here, because this can be taken too far. What about CM's in wheelchairs, then (you see what I mean).

What actually keeps the quality of the cast as high as it is would be three groups: international program members, college kids and retirees. True! I am especially fond of the retirees, who bring a great deal of professionalism and charisma to the parks and resorts.



You, like I, have no idea in knowing what would have happened had Disney decided to not throw out four decades of theme park experience and gone with consultants/outsiders who had no clue what they were breaking. Amen.

Overall, I find this an interesting thread filled with well-crafted argument. It does seem to me that the OP and others are absolutely fans of WDW, and only want to see it returned to its former glory. Who can argue with that?

 

[haveyoumetmark]

I don't understand how people can be crying foul and calling others spoiled, picky, or quality freaks... that's an absolute cop out, especially since Disney created these standards themselves. Now, they are not up to par.... the posters are not at fault here. Let's not be blind.

 

[tirian]

Overall, I find this an interesting thread filled with well-crafted argument. It does seem to me that the OP and others are absolutely fans of WDW, and only want to see it returned to its former glory. Who can argue with that?

Nobody, and I'll second WDW1974's comment regarding "MBA Marketers."

My field is closely related to marketing, and I've worked with marketing departments in several companies. One thing stays the same: unless they have had personal experiences in design, art, or film making/theater, MBA marketers have NO appreciation for anything but bottom-line numbers. They are often unable to look beyond next week's spreadsheet to see long-term benefits. And ignorant business people often take the marketers' opinion as gospel truth because "they studied it, so they must know what they're talking about." I have seen many brilliant plans go awry because "professional" marketers don't see the benefits of "building it so they will come."

Disney's marketing department is historically legendary, and I'm shocked that they've watered down the Vacation Kingdom of the World so much.

Just the same, the problem isn't only the marketing department's fault. They're an easy scapegoat, but we can't forget that it is shortsighted business people who have approved the plans.

p.s. I don't think WDW will be "stale" much longer. Much of the resort's problem comes from previous years of bad management.