Four Parks: One Stale World?

[tirian]

I have thought this too for a long time now. The word "Tomorrowland" implies futuristic. The Sci-Fi and Alien theme (Stitch and MILF) are actually "present day" if you watch the animated films on those attractions.

What Tomorrowland seems to be now to me is I-dunno-where-to-put-this-attraction land.

Tomorrowland has had that problem ever since man landed on the moon. Country critters, Japanese history, and a Lion King show have all called Tomorrowland their home in Disney parks around the world.

 

[disneychic71]

You are correct--there are many to whom we can spread the blame. However, it is great to think we can move on from the blame-game and look forward to a bright future, as you suggest. (Hey! I sound like one of those annoying politicians. MUST...GET...SLEEP!).

 

[MickeyJman06]

Ahem... TSM Was A Pretty Big Project And The Monster's Inc. Coaster In Progress

 

[WDW1974]

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Everytime I visited Uni on my CP the place looked like utter crap.

While not as well kept as Sea World, which is near pristine (in other words, like Disney USED to be), Universal Studios has always (except on HHN's) been in very good shape.

You may have mistyped this, because I can't exactly understand what you're trying to say.

Are you putting down these groups of employees? Because if you are I take offense to this. These three groups are the best cast members I have ever encountered. Yes, there's the college program CMs who hate working for Disney, but they are the extreme minority. And the retirees are the sweetest group of people there.

I guess I wasn't clear, my bad.

What I was saying was that the internationals, CPers and retirees were almost universally wonderful and largely the reason WDW CMs are so highly regarded even today.

The regular/local market is really bottom of the barrel largely. I'd venture that 85-90% of them would never have made it past their first interview in 1988.

BTW, how come the thread was moved? An old guy like myself might never have found it without the help of a kind spirit.

 

[WDW1974]

Am I the only one though who actually feels the least bit content with what's at Disney now? Sure, Laugh Floor and Everest may not exactly be the next POTC but they're FUN! Can't things just be FUN anymore?

Sorry, I'm not content with staleness and mediocrity being passed off as something more.

I expect better from Disney. I've seen what they can do in Anaheim. In Paris .... Even in Hong Kong. ... And back in the old days, Orlando too.

WalMart entertainment doesn't do it for me.

MILF isn't godawful like the attraction across from it, but it is significantly worse and ... well dumber than its predecessor, Timekeeper. It also totally is out of place in T-Land. If this had opened in the Studios or even Toontown, I might have less an issue with it.

 

[WDW1974]

I think what he was getting at was that these are the groups of Cast Members that keep the quality UP.

That is exactly what i was trying to get at.

Maybe not so successfully ... serves me right since I was actually attempting to work and post here at the same time!

 

[WDW1974]

I think this sums it up well. Personally, it's not really about new attractions, resorts, 5th gate, etc. It's more about maintenance, immersion, and experience. And no the parks are not very clean. There was old gum on sidewalks, burnt out light bulbs, overflowing garbage cans, small bits of trash in landscaping beds, and nearly everything could use a fresh coat of paint. At least, that was my impressions from last January compared to what it was like when I went nearly every year growing up in the 80's and 90's.

A question though. In your opinion, is the problem with WDI, Corporate, or something external? Or some combination of the three? You site a lack of accountability at WDI as one reason, and also state they have large, "bloated" budgets. So, are you saying that the managers and executives at WDI just don't hold Imagineers accountable for poorly conceived and designed rides? That they are not using the bloated budgets smartly (for lack of a better word). Has the quality of the stereotypical Imagineer gone down that badly? Or are they hamstrung by managers and executives? Sorry for all the questions, they just kept pouring out of my brain. :wave:

In honor of election day, the late hour and my desire to not spend too much time on this now, I'm going to avoid the heart of a question that deserves a long and detailed response.

Please don't hold it against me and I WILL respond later when I am able to give it the thoughtful reply it deserves.

But since the discussion is more about WDW than WDI, let me state that the biggest problem is that WDW is run by three powerful posses -- and none of them have an ounce of creativity amongst them.

They are:
1.) WDW's Executive 'leadership' team led by Inoverherheadmeg Crofton, the figurehead prez, Al 'White Bread/Rubber Stamp' Weiss, Erin Wallace (who really runs the resort on a daily basis from an ops standpoint) and the park VPs led by the MK's Phil 'Magic Man' Holmes;
2.) WDW's Marketing Division, which has more power over what goes into the parks and when then WDI could dream of having;
3.) Outside consultants ... they pick up six and seven figure checks by telling Disney how to streamline its business and most of them are utterly clueless as to why Disney is Disney and why you can't simply do so many things that they push management to enact with snazzy PowerPoint presentations.

Those are the groups that ultimately lead to poor creative choices like many of the attractions mentioned before. Stitch's Great Escape may be an awful attraction, but it isn't simply the fault of folks like Rick Rothchild who worked on it. It came about because Disney marketers said 'Stitch is huge, he sells lots of merchandise, and he needs a presence in the park.' That is simply how the first seeds of SGE came to germinate. So while WDI did an awful job ... and being forced to use an existing building that couldn't be changed dramatically ... and having too small a budget played a factor. It started before it ever got to WDI. Decisions were made (as they usually are) that dictated what WDI had to work with. Almost all of the funds went to the impressive AA, but that left almost nothing left for anything else ... and that's why there's a mess that only appeals to 9-year-old boys.

Often times, though, money isn't a problem. It's a simple lack of creativity. Imagination 2.0 and 3.0 collectively cost over $80 million ... think about that number, wrap your minds around it ... and then realize that the current ride pulls in fewer visitors than the original (which was full of wonder and whimsy and huge setpieces and special effects) did in its last few years.

So, I guess I did kind of answer part of your question ... but I'll get to the rest when I have more time.

Hope that helped some ...

 

[Missing20K]

In honor of election day, the late hour and my desire to not spend too much time on this now, I'm going to avoid the heart of a question that deserves a long and detailed response.

Please don't hold it against me and I WILL respond later when I am able to give it the thoughtful reply it deserves.

But since the discussion is more about WDW than WDI, let me state that the biggest problem is that WDW is run by three powerful posses -- and none of them have an ounce of creativity amongst them.

They are:
1.) WDW's Executive 'leadership' team led by Inoverherheadmeg Crofton, the figurehead prez, Al 'White Bread/Rubber Stamp' Weiss, Erin Wallace (who really runs the resort on a daily basis from an ops standpoint) and the park VPs led by the MK's Phil 'Magic Man' Holmes;
2.) WDW's Marketing Division, which has more power over what goes into the parks and when then WDI could dream of having;
3.) Outside consultants ... they pick up six and seven figure checks by telling Disney how to streamline its business and most of them are utterly clueless as to why Disney is Disney and why you can't simply do so many things that they push management to enact with snazzy PowerPoint presentations.

Those are the groups that ultimately lead to poor creative choices like many of the attractions mentioned before. Stitch's Great Escape may be an awful attraction, but it isn't simply the fault of folks like Rick Rothchild who worked on it. It came about because Disney marketers said 'Stitch is huge, he sells lots of merchandise, and he needs a presence in the park.' That is simply how the first seeds of SGE came to germinate. So while WDI did an awful job ... and being forced to use an existing building that couldn't be changed dramatically ... and having too small a budget played a factor. It started before it ever got to WDI. Decisions were made (as they usually are) that dictated what WDI had to work with. Almost all of the funds went to the impressive AA, but that left almost nothing left for anything else ... and that's why there's a mess that only appeals to 9-year-old boys.

Often times, though, money isn't a problem. It's a simple lack of creativity. Imagination 2.0 and 3.0 collectively cost over $80 million ... think about that number, wrap your minds around it ... and then realize that the current ride pulls in fewer visitors than the original (which was full of wonder and whimsy and huge setpieces and special effects) did in its last few years.

So, I guess I did kind of answer part of your question ... but I'll get to the rest when I have more time.

Hope that helped some ...

Thanks for all the info. I was curious as to where the big hang up is in the process. You certainly (began, at least according to you) answered that query. I figured it was more with upper management/executives rather than the creative teams at WDI. Sad state of affairs when the suits and bean counters tell artists how to do their job. :wave:

 

[WDW1974]

Thanks, and unfortunately this really is how the company has been run the past 10-15 years. I just feel bad for the people who have never had the chance to experience Disney when it was at its full potential. Its funny I have pictures from the mid 90's when I saw my first light bulb out on main street. I was shocked at the time and took a picture. Now its a regular occurrence. I also have a picture of the first dead tree I saw on property from the same time period. Wow, I think that makes me a little strange. But anyway, Disney's standards were legendary at the time and that was all part of the magic. The magic that is slipping a little bit at a time.

Yep.

Unfortunately, so many people just don't know any better. And they take it personally when you are critical of WDW because they seem to feel you're attacking them by realistically pointing out how WDW is being ruined.

Look, I enjoyed my recent visit, but not the same way I enjoyed HKDL in August or DL/DCA in September.

What these DoM (Defenders of Mediocrity) don't get is how different things truly were. 20 years ago you'd never see lightbulbs out, doorframes missing chunks of wood, slovenly CMs wearing Gap type clothes, flower beds empty except for a few bags of wood chips from the Home Depot etc ... things like that would immediately be rectified and people would lose jobs if they weren't.

The whole culture at Disney has changed to one where they used to aim to exceed guest expectations to one in which they pay lip service to meeting guests (already) diminished expectations.

If you have a problem with my 'tude or what I am saying here, I got some news for you -- you really have a MAJOR problem with TWDC. Because it was Disney that conditioned me to expect only the best from them ... from cleanliness to top entertainment to fresh offerings in the parks to great CMs ... being a loyal consumer of WDW's parks on a regular basis starting in 1974 made me a fan for life, but also conditioned me. So when I see something 'wrong' in a park, it is jarring and I know it.

I don't excuse it. I don't ignore it. I don't let it ruin my time. But it's always there like a pebble stuck inside your shoe. You know something's not right and you feel it.

I guess that shows just how good WDW used to be and just how much of a fan they created and developed in me.

Now, they're screwed because they're either going to live up to their standards or they're going to hear about it (both here and more directly in the real world).

You see I love WDW with a passion.

And I hate the way it has been run since the mid-90s with an equal passion.

 

[WDW1974]

Overall, I find this an interesting thread filled with well-crafted argument. It does seem to me that the OP and others are absolutely fans of WDW, and only want to see it returned to its former glory. Who can argue with that?

Oh, you'd be surprised ... and that's scary to me.

Fans should be demanding pie in the sky stuff ... stuff that isn't realistic. But defending mediocrity? (That's like the 20% of folks who still support the lame duck who shall not be named.)

Really makes you wonder why so-called fans are so willing to accept so much less than they should.

 

[WDW1974]

Oh and at the risk of sounding like some sterotypical gunslinger in a cheesy western from the 1960s that rides into town and walks into a saloon and calls the big guns out, I'd love to hear from the respected 'leaders' of this site who have allegedly heard of all sorts of grandiose attractions and additions coming to WDW.

The silence from them has been deafening in this thread.

And I'm not trying to be a smart-a$$ here. As I said, maybe they know something(s) I don't.

But I don't hear anything ... and they are free to send me a PM if they'd rather not respond in a post.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I know that there are passionate opinions on both sides, but you all MUST stop calling anyone who disagrees with you dense, moronic, etc.

Don't make me get out the belt!

thats my type of thread

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I disagree with that statement as well!

well thats you convinced me that everything is great. Well constructed argument.

 

[dixiegirl]

OK from The Place Where Dreams Come True and Magic Lives, especially during The Year(s) of a (two) Million Dreams and coming soon: What Will YOU Celebrate? is the latest marketing/merchandising tagline ... Four Parks One World branding on merchandise and ads.

This just continues the marketing message that the individual parks (and their levels of freshness and quality) don't really matter so much as the whole of WDW.

Yet after visiting and seeing very little new ... and no new attraction construction (AI Theater nonwithstanding) going on, one must wonder if the shirts and hats and glasses should say 'One Stale World.'

Sea World and Universal Studios and Islands of Adventure all have major attractions under construction and others in the pipeline.

WDW, which is less than three years away from another milestone B-Day, has ... well ... uhm ... ah ...plenty of unsold DVC inventory either completed (Saratoga Springs) and unsold or under construction (DAK Lodge Villas, Bay Lake Tower, Treehouses at SS) and unsold.

It is a whole lot harder for Disney to weather a recession (bordering on depression for many Americans) than Universal or Busch because Disney has over 25,000 rooms and timeshares to fill nightly.

In other words, Disney's irresponsible growth since the mid-90s has put it in a very difficult position to get through tough economic times. And with all the cutbacks that started about the time Frank Wells was buried, one must wonder what is left to cut?

It all doesn't leave a lot of hope for new and great things in WDW's theme parks in the future at all.

But I am sure visionaries like Inoverherheadmeg Crofton, Erin Wallace, Al Weiss, Phil 'Magic Man' Holmes and company can keep the cash flowing while delivering magical WDW vacations to millions.

There just isn't much to get excited about when it comes to WDW these days ... and I doubt we're going to see the Imagineering Blue Sky Verandah opening in Adventureland soon ... or perhaps the Imagineering Blue Sky Wonders of the Future pavilion at Epcot ... or the Imagineering Blue Sky Soundstage at The Park Formerly Known as The Disney-MGM Studios or ... you get the idea.

Oh, I guess we can all look forward to the new Hall of Presidents coming in spring 2009 ... course they didn't really have much choice in that one, did they?

Stale Mountain's redo? Well, you haven't heard much about that one, have you? Neither have I ...

Then do us all a favor......Stay home!!!..I'm sorry but to compare Walt Disney World to any other Park out there is Bizarre, There is no comparison what so ever...Well for a place that seems "stale " to you why is it that yes even with the economy it still draws crowds...Especially, During the holidays , that their Slow times of the year aren't really slow anymore, Speaking from someone and many others( if you can believe it) who have gone to Disney every Aug/September for the past 15 yrs ....Its not slow anymore......So what that they don't come out with a new ride/attraction every freakin couple of months..I'll still go..And I believe many others.....Yes I could go on and on but I won't bore you.......But do us all a favor.....STAY HOME!!!

 

[dixiegirl]

And I'm waiting for Mom to come in soon and close this thread..:lookaroun

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

Yes fan boys just cant seem to behave themselves, quite shocking really

 

[DisneyWales]

I have to say i kinda agree with WDW1974, if i can see and understand his points, and I've only been visiting since 2002, then there surly are grounds for the comments he is making.

I've made comments about the dumbing down of EPCOT before and got shot down very fast, I'm as big a fanboy as the next person, i love WDW so much me and my BF are working on way to move to FL so we can be that little closer to our happy place (that and the sun).

But even I get frustrated at how things seem to be getting dumber and dumber at WDW.

The SSE refurb has its good points, but also has some terrible things in it too.

I like MILF, but think its in the wrong place. SGE is a nice addition, but we could have had better.

Grand Fiesta doesn't bring anything new to Mexico, but I'm biased as El rio was one of my favorite attractions at WDW.

I like TSM, but I also agree that that its not as immersive as other attractions of its scale.

Everest is amazing, but when was the last time it was working as intended, or is B mode the new intended.

I guess what I'm saying is, yes WDW is still one of the best places to go on vacation, and yes it has some of the most magical attractions experiences in the work.

However:-

I am concerned of the direction i see the world going, it seems as if franchise options has more chance of leading an attractions direction over the actual experience and immersion.

My list of favorite attractions are all attractions that were added before 1994. Not to say that the new stuff is rubbish, not in the slightest, its just not Stellar.

I have to say I'm now fed up with the Party Event gimmick, especially when you pay more to see more (with prices increasing yearly it seems), only to find that its been cut back (i.e. the reduced fireworks this year, and candy bags used to advertise merchandise, rather than give you a nice memento).

I have hope for the future, I just hope that I'm not wasting my dreams on a better WDW to come.

So Bravo to WDW1974, for standing up and highlighting a very relevant and serious matter.

 

[krankenstein]

BTW, how come the thread was moved? An old guy like myself might never have found it without the help of a kind spirit.

It was moved because it has nothing to do with News and Rumors. The thread should have originally been placed in General Discussion. Hence the move. :wave:

I do have a quick question, I heard that what we are currently seeing is the very end of the Eisner era. TSMM actually marked the beginning of Iger's decisions. Is this is true? If so, I think the future might look a bit brighter than it did in the late 90's.

 

[sleepybear]

Yet after visiting and seeing very little new ... and no new attraction construction (AI Theater nonwithstanding) going on, one must wonder if the shirts and hats and glasses should say 'One Stale World.'

In the past five years, WDW has seen the openings of Mission: Space, Mickey's Philharmagic, Soarin', Expedition Everest and Toy Story Mania. Yup, five of the resort's most popular attractions weren't around five years ago. Not to mention the major refurbs of Pirates, Haunted Mansion, The Seas and Spaceship Earth.

If opening and updating an 'E' Ticket attraction every year is 'stale' in your book, then I'm curious to see your definition of 'fresh.'

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It was moved because it has nothing to do with News and Rumors. The thread should have originally been placed in General Discussion. Hence the move. :wave:

I do have a quick question, I heard that what we are currently seeing is the very end of the Eisner era. TSMM actually marked the beginning of Iger's decisions. Is this is true? If so, I think the future might look a bit brighter than it did in the late 90's.

Odd way of looking at it...But I guess it's plausible.:shrug: