Fastpass return time

[lebeau]

I still remember my Tradition's instructor telling us about giving away ice cream to upset children, "Disney can afford to lose $4 on ice cream. It can't afford to lose thousands of dollars on follow up vacations, because Timmy is inconsolable."

Very wise.

There's something called the "cost of doing business". Sometimes, that's a $4 ice cream. But what it can buy you is worth a heck of a lot more.

These "rules" are Disney's policies. They can enforce them however they wish. If they choose not to enforce them, you better believe it's because it is in their best interests not to.

 

[dsollie]

In my opinion, it is simply projecting personal morality onto corporate policy. With that comes all the inconsistancies of morality.

When it comes down to it, I think Disney will do what it takes to keep the customer happy.

If allowing them to come back after their Fastpass times or allowing them to use a Halloween 1998 mug will help a guest afford another $1000-$2000 vacation next year, it is worth the short term expense.

I still remember my Tradition's instructor telling us about giving away ice cream to upset children, "Disney can afford to lose $4 on ice cream. It can't afford to lose thousands of dollars on follow up vacations, because Timmy is inconsolable."

Spot on - great quote!

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Found this on another sites forum.

By using your FP beyond the window, you are not "getting away" with something, you are not "breaking rules", you are simply using the FP as allowed. When I use my FP does not affect crowd control at WDW or the attraction. My use of the FP does not have any impact on 1)the number of people in the park, or 2)the number of people who can ride an attraction in a day. FP's are not intended to move you to the front of the line, they are to allow you to spend your waiting time somewhere else (like buying food or merchandise). Disney is a business and they understand that the only time you cannot spend money is when you are riding and when you are in line. FP is a win-win idea that reduces your standing in line time. If I use my FP during the time window, someone waiting in the standby line will just have to wait a little longer. If I use it later that day, that same person (and many others) will simply get to ride a little sooner. Either way, the same number of people still ride. Complicated? NO - just simple logistics and ride management.

I have do have firsthand information concerning "late" FP use. My cousin, Scott Bowden, works in Anaheim as a Senior Vice President in the Department of Planning, Revenue Management and Strategic Pricing - he and I have had a few conversations about this issue. It has now become a joke because whenever I call him, the first thing he says is "Fastpasses do not expire, what's up?"
Additionally, a father in our first China adoption travel group (Mike Lewinski) works for the outside firm in Buffalo that actually helped Disney design and implement the FP (they make some of the components in the machines and in the software). He is very familiar with the logistics of the FP and how they work to provide better guest movement in the parks.

To answer the question about why they print an end time and not simply the earliest time you may enter the FP line:
Because someone realized that people need guidelines. Seriously, it is because having a start and finish gives an appearance of a "reservation" instead of just giving you a time to return (which just seems like you're still waiting, just not in the line). People like an appointment. I am not kidding – it is no more scientific than that.

I do hear the argument that if everyone holds their FP until later it will clog the system. Consider the following extreme example:

5000 people collect FP's for Space Mtn in the morning and ALL of them choose to return after their window. The people in the standby line just have to wait. Still, the same number of people ride the ride and it never stops - it runs at capacity. BUT - for every one of those people who hold their FP until later, 1 person gets to ride earlier in the day.

Simplest example: you and I are the only people in the park. I use my FP at 10am(earliest return time printed on the FP), you (standby rider) have to wait. OR, I use my FP at 5pm(well after the end of the stated window) and you were able to ride anytime before that - with me not getting in your way.

If you don't believe you should use the FP's past the time, then don't. The fact is this: If I choose to not ride during the 1 hour window, it only means that someone else will fill my magical spot on the ride (someone from the standby line). If I did enter during the 1 hr time, that same person (theoretically) will ride AFTER me. None of this is intended as a rationalization, it is just basic theme park logistics. FP's do not expire (on that day, of course) and I know that for a fact.

First bold paragraph, does anyone else feel even mildly insulted by this? Disney or whoever else thought of this is making a huge statement about the intelligence level of the park guests if they feel replacing "Return between 3:25 pm & 4:25 pm" with "Return after 3:25 pm" will so confuse people that they won't be able to figure out when it's time to come use their FP. :brick:

Remaining bold paragraphs, I disagree and here's why. If the 200 guests who obtained Fastpasses for a window from 10:30 am to 11:30 am all showed up to use them at 3:00 pm it *will* make a difference for the guests in the standby line when these late FP people show up. All the guests who got into the standby line with a posted 45 minute wait time will now wait longer than what they would have if those late FP people had not been late. Why? Because the standby line guests got in line after 2:00 p.m. The only way they wouldn't have been impacted was if they'd been in that particular line when the late FP people were supposed to be there between 10:30 & 11:30 a.m. I'm sure the late FP person not showing up in their suggested window made for a nice, short wait for the guests who were there during that hour but it does the opposite for the guests in line later in the day. The late FP person is now taking the seat of a person who *did* use their recommended return times and/or the guests who entered a standby line with an particular approximation of what their wait time would be.

In the 2nd example you only used 2 people. Admittedly, if there were only 2 people in the park none of this would be an issue. Unfortunately, that's just not the case. Case in point: tour groups. Tour groups DO use the FP system. I've seen 2 to 3 different groups moving about the parks & entering lines together. Literally there were 100 or more people. I personally have watched a standby line increase significantly when they all hopped in at the same time. The potential for this hypothetical situation to actually occur is real. It shouldn't be treated as if it is not.

When it's just a few people not observing their return times properly I don't think there would be an issue or much impact at all. From what we've seen in this thread, people think it's fine because Disney accepts it. Ya know, Disney also doesn't enforce line-cutting that often or address the groups/mobs of guests who cause such misery for other guests with the shoving, chanting, etc. For me, that doesn't make it a situation where I feel like it's okay to do it. I'm not saying that people who do the FP late return are on the level of these other problematic people, it's just an example of why I make the choices I do.

Sounds to me that Disney &/or anyone else who was involved in the design of the FP system have, to an extent, built in the "people aren't gonna do it right anyway" factor. No system is without it's flaws. But the more people who figure out they aren't obligated to their FP window the more likely the entire system is to fail.

To a large extent this is a topic subject to individual perspective.

 

[lebeau]

Just to reinterate a point I made earlier, we have asked CMs many times about the return window. And we have been informed very clearly by just about every CM we've ever asked that the expiration time is meaningless.

If they out and out tell you it's okay, how is it not okay?

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Very wise.

There's something called the "cost of doing business". Sometimes, that's a $4 ice cream. But what it can buy you is worth a heck of a lot more.

These "rules" are Disney's policies. They can enforce them however they wish. If they choose not to enforce them, you better believe it's because it is in their best interests not to.

On a strictly fundamental level I really am disgusted at the fact that business dictates social morays. Whatever happened to higher standards because it's the right thing to do? I know I know...economics...the almighty dollar...blah blah blah. Just bugs me sometimes.... :brick:

 

[lebeau]

On a strictly fundamental level I really am disgusted at the fact that business dictates social morays. Whatever happened to higher standards because it's the right thing to do? I know I know...economics...the almighty dollar...blah blah blah. Just bugs me sometimes.... :brick:

If this bugs you, you don't want to know about what's going on in the financial industry. It's more than FPs and $4 ice creams, let me tell you!

 

[raven]

My biggest issue with FP isn't the return time but the actual distribution of them:

A group of 20 enters a stand-by line in the morning while a single person from the group is standing at the FP machine getting FP's for the entire group to ride again, causing a back-up at the machines (Happens all morning at Soarin' at nearly every machine). IF they were simply getting them for their group, that's fine. The problem is that when they are done they want to skip ahead of everyone in line to catch up to their party. That's just plain wrong.

NextGen should solve these problems if everything goes as planned. If they were smart the system would only allow each ticket to get one FP's per day for a given ride. Meaning: No multiple FP's in the same day for the same ride.

 

[mbisenius]

Remaining bold paragraphs, I disagree and here's why. If the 200 guests who obtained Fastpasses for a window from 10:30 am to 11:30 am all showed up to use them at 3:00 pm it *will* make a difference for the guests in the standby line when these late FP people show up. All the guests who got into the standby line with a posted 45 minute wait time will now wait longer than what they would have if those late FP people had not been late. Why? Because the standby line guests got in line after 2:00 p.m. The only way they wouldn't have been impacted was if they'd been in that particular line when the late FP people were supposed to be there between 10:30 & 11:30 a.m. I'm sure the late FP person not showing up in their suggested window made for a nice, short wait for the guests who were there during that hour but it does the opposite for the guests in line later in the day. The late FP person is now taking the seat of a person who *did* use their recommended return times and/or the guests who entered a standby line with an particular approximation of what their wait time would be.

I agree. It's not in a guest's best interest if they get in the stand-by line thinking the wait time is one thing and then it's largely affected by late returns (if this situation actually occurred). Although I'm aware of the fact now that I can return late, I won't because I don't want to purposely cause someone else's time to be delayed.

And why do they monitor FPs so closely at Soarin'? It doesn't seem right that they would not allow late returns there but would at other attractions.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

How is it that valid for FP use, but not for re-use of refillable mugs? It's the exact same thing. The printed rules state that FP holders can enter "between the times noted on the other side." The printed rules for refillable mugs state that free refills are available only during the stay which the mug was purchased. Posters are staying that since Disney doesn't enforce the FP rule, then they are legitimately using the FP after the return window. They don't enforce the mug re-use rule either, yet people here get up in arms about re-use. How doesn't Disney's lack of enforcement differ in that case?

(Just playing Devil's Advocate).

It's been a while since I peeked into a mug thread, but I remember thinking a while back that the language on the mugs was a little ambiguous too. :shrug:

However, I can at least understand the argument that buying a mug once in your life and using it to get free Coke for the rest of time is stealing. Whether that argument is true or not (based on Disney's own policies) I'm not sure about, but I do understand the argument.

Here, I'm really not sure what the argument is. People seem to have concluded that the FastPass return time constitutes a rule, when Disney's employees are willing to openly state that it does not...and when I know for a fact (having been trained at a FP attraction myself many moons ago) that Disney instructs CMs (or did at one time) not to regard it as a rule.

Why Disney has chosen to treat the return window as a suggestion and not a rule is really irrelevant to me. The fact is that Disney has adopted a policy that says FastPasses are to be accepted anytime after the opening of the return window...for any reason, or for no reason at all. That is the policy (to my knowledge). I cannot understand why people should be looked down on for knowing that, and behaving in a way consistent with it.

I realize saying all that doesn't entirely square what I'm saying with the mug example. I would say that A.) I'm not too jazzed about the mug question either way, and B.) I'm not privy to Disney's internal policies on the mugs. I don't know what CMs are instructed to say or do when it comes to that.

I do have a little firsthand insight into the FP return issue...granted it's minimal and almost a decade old.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

ation to actually occur is real. It shouldn't be treated as if it is not.
From what we've seen in this thread, people think it's fine because Disney accepts it. Ya know, Disney also doesn't enforce line-cutting that often or address the groups/mobs of guests who cause such misery for other guests with the shoving, chanting, etc. For me, that doesn't make it a situation where I feel like it's okay to do it. I'm not saying that people who do the FP late return are on the level of these other problematic people, it's just an example of why I make the choices I do.

While I can't say I share this perspective, it does help me understand why some people get exercised on this particular topic. If I saw returning FP's outside the window as akin to line-cutting or making loud noises, I'd probably get up in arms about it too. :lol:

 

[LoriMistress]

I agree. It's not in a guest's best interest if they get in the stand-by line thinking the wait time is one thing and then it's largely affected by late returns (if this situation actually occurred). Although I'm aware of the fact now that I can return late, I won't because I don't want to purposely cause someone else's time to be delayed.

And why do they monitor FPs so closely at Soarin'? It doesn't seem right that they would not allow late returns there but would at other attractions.

I've been able to use a late FP to Soarin' without any issues. I guess it depends on the CM.

 

[draybook]

Yeah, we never had a problem using any of our FP's. Now granted we've only been twice, and not during peak season but I've never seen any FP line more than 3-4 minutes long. Then again, that's why I don't go during peak season.

 

[Tom Morrow]

I've been able to use a late FP to Soarin' without any issues. I guess it depends on the CM.

Did you even read the thread?

 

[durangojim]

This question was brought up a couple of years ago here in a pretty interesting thread. I've been told many times by CMs to return anytime after the first time listed on the FP, even if it means later in the same day, so that's what we do.

Here's a link to the original thread: http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showthread.php?t=348780&highlight=fast+pass

Here are a couple of scans of what FPs say. Make sure you read all the text

 

[Phonedave]

Remaining bold paragraphs, I disagree and here's why. If the 200 guests who obtained Fastpasses for a window from 10:30 am to 11:30 am all showed up to use them at 3:00 pm it *will* make a difference for the guests in the standby line when these late FP people show up. All the guests who got into the standby line with a posted 45 minute wait time will now wait longer than what they would have if those late FP people had not been late. Why? Because the standby line guests got in line after 2:00 p.m. The only way they wouldn't have been impacted was if they'd been in that particular line when the late FP people were supposed to be there between 10:30 & 11:30 a.m. I'm sure the late FP person not showing up in their suggested window made for a nice, short wait for the guests who were there during that hour but it does the opposite for the guests in line later in the day. The late FP person is now taking the seat of a person who *did* use their recommended return times and/or the guests who entered a standby line with an particular approximation of what their wait time would be.

Exactly,

And this ties back into the comment about the $4 ice cream vs. an upset kid.

Misuse if FP return time windows will NOT increase overall wait times ON AVERAGE (remember, the on average - its important). Yes if someone shows up later than they should, that means that a stand by rider got to ride a minute earlier, and then when they show up late a stand by rider rides a minute later. Sounds like no big deal.

But, now we get to the case of tour groups or large parties. if 25 people come in late, that is like 25 people cutting in front of most of the stand by line. People notice when the line does not move for multiple ride cycles because the FP queue is backing up. This creates a poor experience. Not something WDW really wants to have.

Now we get back to the averages mentioned above. Let's say you go to a park and there are 4 attractions you really want to ride. If you had a 15 minute wait for each attraction (letting a normal amount of FP holders in ahead of you on each ride), that would be a pretty good day. You would be pretty happy with WDW. Wow, those lines move quick. I think I will plan another trip. Now, lets say those same FP holders do't get on the rides when they are supposed to. You breeze through three of the attractions with basicly walk ons. 2 or 3 minute wait. Then you get to the last attraction, and POW - a 50 minute wait. In both scenarios you spent an hour on line. However a person is much more likely to remember the negative aspections of a situation. In the second case the three walk on will not make the trip report, but the "horrible wait" at the fourth attraction will be sure to be a sore point for a long time.

I would think the "masters of human nature" at WDW who seem to think people need an "appointment time" as opposed to a "wait till" time would realize that people will also focus on negatives and discount any positives.

-dave

 

[lebeau]

I would think the "masters of human nature" at WDW who seem to think people need an "appointment time" as opposed to a "wait till" time would realize that people will also focus on negatives and discount any positives.

Disney knows about the flaws in FP. But it has run the numbers and come to the conclussion that the problems aren't worth fixing.

If the worst case scenario you described happened, Disney would make ammends to any guests who thought to complain. This works in most cases.

Where it falls flat is the guests who don't complain. They are just out of luck unless a cast member recognizes they are unhappy and acts pro-actively.

Fortunately, Disney has a pretty good track record with cast members acting proactively.

 

[LoriMistress]

Did you even read the thread?

I did read the thread, and I've read enough of the banter back and forth on for and against using FP's during a later time. There's no reason for you to be rude. I never had any issues with you, so I'm not sure why you're attacking me.

 

[Phonedave]

Disney knows about the flaws in FP. But it has run the numbers and come to the conclussion that the problems aren't worth fixing.

If the worst case scenario you described happened, Disney would make ammends to any guests who thought to complain. This works in most cases.

Where it falls flat is the guests who don't complain. They are just out of luck unless a cast member recognizes they are unhappy and acts pro-actively.

Fortunately, Disney has a pretty good track record with cast members acting proactively.

Are you actualy telling me that if I walk up to a line, look at it and then think it is too long, that a CM will read my expressions and rectify the situation proactively?

I have been to WDW at least a dozen times, stood on countless lines, stood on lines that said wait time 20 minutes for 90+, and stood there at the merge point and watched 75+ FP people go in front of me in one shot, and I can count on one hand - no, correction, one finger, the number of times a CM did anything for me. It was ONCE, and that was most likely because it was his job (dream squad member) and he could see the dejected look on my daughters face when I told her we did not have time to ride TestTrack.

-dave

 

[jaques21]

The first time i got my fast pass years ago cause it use to say on the ticket if i remember right, they don't anymore.

 

[jakeman]

Are you actualy telling me that if I walk up to a line, look at it and then think it is too long, that a CM will read my expressions and rectify the situation proactively?

I have been to WDW at least a dozen times, stood on countless lines, stood on lines that said wait time 20 minutes for 90+, and stood there at the merge point and watched 75+ FP people go in front of me in one shot, and I can count on one hand - no, correction, one finger, the number of times a CM did anything for me. It was ONCE, and that was most likely because it was his job (dream squad member) and he could see the dejected look on my daughters face when I told her we did not have time to ride TestTrack.

-dave

I'm by no means trying to belittle your point, but how do you know that all or part of those 75 people were late?

The issue you described are CM failures, not Fastpass system failures.

A CM should proactively recognize that the stand by line is past a 20 minute marker, regardless of the last time a card went down.

While I definitely advocate for the FP line moving as quickly as possible, the CM at the merge point should show better judgement than letting 75 people in before accessing the stand by line.