Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

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WDW1974

Well-Known Member
This pool thing must be from people who are out of state.:confused::lookaroun

When I was little, I never had any urge to go...All I wanted were the parks.:lol:

Nope. Some of us FLA boys (and girls) loved (and still do) the pool. Especially some of wonderful resort pools.

Only so many times you could do Space Mountain in one day... even when it didn't s-u-c-k.

And once I started going to RC (and later TL and BB) I gladly gave up time in the other parks.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Have you checked out the videos of Luxo over at DHS? Not anything big, but definitely one of those little Disney touches that makes the parks special.

I was impressed, and me being your lacky, you would have to be impressed.:lol:

Nope. I don't watch videos of things I am planning on seeing (one of the evils of the Internet). But I have heard good things about it and am looking forward to checking it out.

And you are my lapdog ... not my lacky ... I actually have an add on Craig's List as I am looking to hire four lackys (you won't be paid, but I will include a PoC pin of my choosing and either a 1990 EPCOT Center guidebook or a Dec. 3, 1995 Disney-MGM guidemap if you are lucky enough to be selected!)
 

SirGoofy

Member
Nope. I don't watch videos of things I am planning on seeing (one of the evils of the Internet). But I have heard good things about it and am looking forward to checking it out.

And you are my lapdog ... not my lacky ... I actually have an add on Craig's List as I am looking to hire four lackys (you won't be paid, but I will include a PoC pin of my choosing and either a 1990 EPCOT Center guidebook or a Dec. 3, 1995 Disney-MGM guidemap if you are lucky enough to be selected!)

I caved and watched a video...before finding out that I may be going down to work in a couple weeks, since apparently no one in NJ wants to hire me.

But on the brightside...I may be going back to the Jungle in a few.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
I caved and watched a video...before finding out that I may be going down to work in a couple weeks, since apparently no one in NJ wants to hire me.

But on the brightside...I may be going back to the Jungle in a few.

Drop me a note if you do ... you may get a special Spirit onboard one of your trips into the jungle.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
Well, to be fair it is both.

I often wonder if WDW doesn't have more APers than DL now. What people don't get is that most APers aren't from Florida ... they are from the UK or NY or Boston or Atlanta or Houston or Sweden or Germany or Brazil etc ... and many absolutely are DVCers.

The issue is whether the magic has begun to wear thin with many of the APers and DVCers ... you can't have the same old, same old for year upon year.

And plussing existing attractions is great, but it doesn't count on the scale some would have you believe.

The funny ... or most absurd thing is the fact that back in what I term 'the good old days' (for me it's 1974-1994, but others will vary a bit) when DVC didn't exist or was barely a blip on the radar ... when APs weren't nearly as common (especially for none-Floridians) ... when people visited less regularly ... when all of the above ... Disney was much more into both rehabbing attractions regularly, changing entertainment and offering seasonal entertainment.

of course hard ticket events, which include a lot of that now, didn't exist in the 70s and 80s (except for a few exceptions).

But the argument for letting WDW grow stale and neglected, which doesn't make any sense at all to me, certainly had a stronger basis back then ...

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying, but I think at some point, you have to take a step back, and evaluate your chances of winning the battle you’re fighting. You have conceded countless times that you’re not the kind of guest WDW likely wants. If WDW doesn’t want guests like you, how do you expect to persuade WDW to change to appeal to your type of guest? You may be persuading people here to change their expectations, but how much of a difference is a minute percentage of online fans? If you want to be a martyr, that’s your prerogative, but I think a better strategy is appealing to WDW from a viable and economical business perspective to demonstrate why what they’re doing is failing (I’m not saying you don’t do this—you do—but this seems the only “winning” strategy).

Viewing the past is nice for a historical comparison, but it isn’t going to change what the demographics have become, or how the parks will continue to change. It is nice to reflect upon the good ole days, but that only gets you so far. WDW is not going to change its business plan (if they have one at this point…) just because some people online recognize what the place was like in 1974, 1983, or even 1994. Simply, the past “is what it is.”

So here, I believe, is the basis for an argument that WDW, for its own sake, needs to make changes, upgrades, etc., to continue to attract the type of guest that it has begun to attract with DVC. I think framing the argument around that makes a whole lot more sense (it’s even a bit ironic: the means by which WDW wanted to make a “quick buck” via DVC have become the reason WDW will likely be held accountable for maintaining the quality of the parks). DVC members are not a captive audience. They have several means to get out, and WDW will need to make changes to cater to these, and other, frequent visitors.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Velveeta

It's getting interesting again. Sorry for the long post.

I think that the whole dynamic of how AP holders versus the general public view the park is a great topic. How does that change the experience and how does the park address it? First you have to have credible data as to how many AP's there really are and where they are from, when they visit, etc. Not sure we can truly know for WDW, but the discussion can continue.

Personally, this all goes back to A through E ticket books and the impact they had. Ticket Books gave each attraction a tangible value both to the park management because they could be measured monetarily, and to the guest because they would have to choose their rides carefully. As a kid, going on an E twice was a big deal because that meant it beat out something else. It was all special and ala carte. No burnout.

With private party tickets came the notion of the "all you can eat" ticket. Wow! "Unlimited use of all rides and attractions". Very popular with guests and of course the position of ticket taker eventually was eliminated so it appeared that the attraction was unmanned. You own the park!. By the time "Passports" were introduced, the shows became less repeatable as you'd ride them several times in a visit. Like too much chocolate, it all loses its zest. Edit right to the thrill rides 6 times. Less special, but now it's a free buffet, and like buffets, who cares what it tastes like when you get this much! Less motivation for the park to promote uptime and capacity as the rides no longer have a ticket revenue attached as they once did. The house of cards folds, make 'em wait. Of course, kids now can vandalize and learn the rides by going on them a million times. The whole mentality becomes "experiential gluttony" because the vacation meter is running and lets get it all in because its paid for. The park knows that if they see 9.5 things in a day with fireworks they rate the day as "very satisfied", so run them through 9.5 shows. Very different from the "choose your adventures wisely" ticket mentality. But the guests love it.

Then layer on the AP motivation to return enough to get "into the black" for the money. Now you have guests with a big sense of entitlement. It's their park and now they are there enough to scrutinize the living daylights out of it because it's their front porch for the summer. They know the cast members by name and because of the extreme familiarity, their expectations of the experience rise to a level that's impossible to exceed because a light bulb has burned out, they changed the Dole Whip and Rod is off today and not at the Piano. IMHO no park was never designed for that level of scrutiny, although you can argue that it promises to. So the park has to respond to this audience because they have become the majority. Dangerous game that can be won mind you. It's a tribute to the company that the parks are as repeatable as they are!

Finally, there is FASTPASS. Another way to alter the experience for the guest and speed up the meter as now you are motivated to run from show to show gathering passes and running back, all in an effort to get it all over with as soon as possible. The "map of adventures" is reduced to a list of "to dos". Of course, guests love all of this because, like a buffet, they can get more in. "Forget the preshow, let's get this over with so we can hit three more rides." But it all comes at an experiential cost and IMHO erodes the assets. But guests love it (till they get sick of it).

(It's funny how when something special is adapted for a mass audience it is compromised in some way. The record gave music to everyone but does not capture the emotion of a live performance. Printing posters gives everyone a Van Gogh, but the soul is missing. The small TV screen compromised the impact of the big one and so forth.)

So.. back to our argument, WDW is one big "all you can eat" property, and so why bother to sweat the details on anything when it's about mass consumption, not tasting and savoring each course? AP's that come to savor are tasting velveeta, but the experiential gluttons just squeeze it on while looking at their watch and walking to the next park.

The parks know all of this. As you have mentioned, Hard ticket Events with big impact like the "Wine and Food" festival or the Flower festival are great solutions to all of this. Same with seasonal attraction overlays. Deep experience and richness that a DVC, AP person would like and so would the visiting guest. I think the parks seeing all of this and are beginning to deal with it in the right way, but it all takes time and money.
 

hpyhnt 1000

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
^^Wow, Eddie... that was, somewhat depressing to be honest. :eek:

Unfortunately, you're right. The parks really have become, for most people, the equivalent of a military operation. Between FastPass attractions, ADRs, character meet n greets, and showtimes and parades and what not, there is so much sometimes to do and understandably people want to get as much done as possible. However, when you have your entire day is planned out on an index card down to the exact minute, thats kinda frightening. You can have your list of 3 or 4 "must-sees", which FastPass can help you see/do, but I don't see how planning your day attraction by attraction is going to lead to a truly satisfying experience. :shrug:
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Then layer on the AP motivation to return enough to get "into the black" for the money. Now you have guests with a big sense of entitlement. It's their park and now they are there enough to scrutinize the living daylights out of it because it's their front porch for the summer. They know the cast members by name and because of the extreme familiarity, their expectations of the experience rise to a level that's impossible to exceed because a light bulb has burned out, they changed the Dole Whip and Rod is off today and not at the Piano. IMHO no park was never designed for that level of scrutiny, although you can argue that it promises to. So the park has to respond to this audience because they have become the majority. Dangerous game that can be won mind you. It's a tribute to the company that the parks are as repeatable as they are!
My opinion on this particular area differs a bit. Granted I am basing my opinion on myself and a very small numbers of AP holders that I know where as yours is more than likely based on a much more reliable source of information.

Back in the late 90's when I would travel once or twice per year using either a length of stay pass or a FL resident Play "x" days pass I would do what you described. Rush from one ride to another. Pre-show and details be dammed I needed to do everything!

Now as an AP holder I already feel like I am in the black the day I buy the pass because I know that I will be there more than enough days to make the pass a value. For that reason I slow the pace way down. I will walk into a park with a plan as simple as "I want to see the new HOP, have a dole float and a burger at Peco's Bills" I enjoy my time. I sit in AL and enjoy the music. I wonder through Liberty square and notice the sagging shutters and I might go on HM 3 times just so I can look in a different area on each ride. I appreciate that parks for their complexity and attention to detail and story and no longer see them as a big to do list.

Seasonal changes and events make me visit the parks more often. I go in October because of F&W and MNSSHP, SWW brings me in despite of the blazing heat and I simply can not imagine a December without the Osbourne lights. An additions to this schedule would only make me go to WDW more.
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
"experiential gluttons", huh

I like that.
Those are words that can be used every day in many areas.
Good phrase.
:)

Thanks. Just made it up. I think you are right that "experiential gluttony" is a part of society not just theme park jargon. We are marketed to in a way that encourages the "collecting" of experiences as a means of validating our lives. "We only go around once". "Just do it", etc. It an "invisible checklist" of experiences, places, stunts, etc. we convince ourselves we need to have done before we die. The pleasure derived from the never ending pursuit can be insatiable. Weird creatures we humans are!
 

Eddie Sotto

Premium Member
Now as an AP holder I already feel like I am in the black the day I buy the pass because I know that I will be there more than enough days to make the pass a value. For that reason I slow the pace way down. .

Absolutely. Me too. The pace does change and with that slower pace you notice more. You use the park in a different way than a day guest for sure. I like that aspect of being an AP as just having an ice cream cone on Main Street can be a restful experience as there is no meter. Over time though, I think that the AP becomes so sophisticated that it's harder for the park to maintain that magic spell. You seem to enjoy it for the right reasons.
 

WDWFREAK53

Well-Known Member
My opinion on this particular area differs a bit. Granted I am basing my opinion on myself and a very small numbers of AP holders that I know where as yours is more than likely based on a much more reliable source of information.

Back in the late 90's when I would travel once or twice per year using either a length of stay pass or a FL resident Play "x" days pass I would do what you described. Rush from one ride to another. Pre-show and details be dammed I needed to do everything!

Now as an AP holder I already feel like I am in the black the day I buy the pass because I know that I will be there more than enough days to make the pass a value. For that reason I slow the pace way down. I will walk into a park with a plan as simple as "I want to see the new HOP, have a dole float and a burger at Peco's Bills" I enjoy my time. I sit in AL and enjoy the music. I wonder through Liberty square and notice the sagging shutters and I might go on HM 3 times just so I can look in a different area on each ride. I appreciate that parks for their complexity and attention to detail and story and no longer see them as a big to do list.

Seasonal changes and events make me visit the parks more often. I go in October because of F&W and MNSSHP, SWW brings me in despite of the blazing heat and I simply can not imagine a December without the Osbourne lights. An additions to this schedule would only make me go to WDW more.

I'm with you on this one too. This last trip was the first in years that I wasn't an AP holder (due to the wedding I didn't go for two years...and now with the baby on the way I probably won't get back down there for at least a couple more years) and I felt the need to get everything in because I didn't know how long it would be until I got back down there.

When I was an AP holder, I didn't care if I got there at park opening...or stayed until park closing...or even if I did any attractions while I was there. Most of the time (as an AP holder) I would spend sitting on a bench and people-watching while having a snack or just taking it all in. The attractions broke up the "take it easy" feel that I had.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
My opinion on this particular area differs a bit. Granted I am basing my opinion on myself and a very small numbers of AP holders that I know where as yours is more than likely based on a much more reliable source of information.

Back in the late 90's when I would travel once or twice per year using either a length of stay pass or a FL resident Play "x" days pass I would do what you described. Rush from one ride to another. Pre-show and details be dammed I needed to do everything!

Now as an AP holder I already feel like I am in the black the day I buy the pass because I know that I will be there more than enough days to make the pass a value. For that reason I slow the pace way down. I will walk into a park with a plan as simple as "I want to see the new HOP, have a dole float and a burger at Peco's Bills" I enjoy my time. I sit in AL and enjoy the music. I wonder through Liberty square and notice the sagging shutters and I might go on HM 3 times just so I can look in a different area on each ride. I appreciate that parks for their complexity and attention to detail and story and no longer see them as a big to do list.

Seasonal changes and events make me visit the parks more often. I go in October because of F&W and MNSSHP, SWW brings me in despite of the blazing heat and I simply can not imagine a December without the Osbourne lights. An additions to this schedule would only make me go to WDW more.

This may be the case for you given your proximity (I realize it isn't still out your backdoor), but there is a large contingent of AP holders from the North. These people may be much closer to the "break even point" (11 days or whatever it is) per year, so they may still pursue vigorous touring plans. However, that conflicts with Eddie's statements, as this large contingent is not in a position to know cast members by name or stress over the little details. Unless they're learning these things via the internet, which I doubt many are in large numbers. I suppose what I mean to say is that you're both right--that there are likely two general categories of AP holders with which WDW must contend: nitpicking Floridians and well-to-do Northerners.

The nitpicking Floridians have been discussed well, so I'll address the well-to-do crowd. As was discussed in another thread, I think expectations differ based on the type of guest that Disney attracts. I am not insisting that money buys class, but often, with it brings expectations. Those more financially well-off individuals will compare their WDW experience that they have had on other pricey vacations. If WDW can't offer something to compete with the other vacations on which these individuals might go, WDW loses them as customers.

However, we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. Because of the perception that WDW has among such a crowd, I think it would be a waste of advertising dollars to target these individuals. I think it would be wise if Disney looked past some of the generic "Disney Parks" ads rife with characters and attractions, and created targeted advertising to change the perceptions and put said advertising in travel magazines and other supposedly prestigious magazines (perhaps the New Yorker, GQ, etc.). Perhaps a retro-looking “Vacation Kingdom of the World” ad with a collage of images—golfing, parasailing, the luau, etc., (I’m pretty sure the old WDW books have really similar collages in their front areas. Maybe they could just take one of those). I think that would catch people’s attention and pique curiosity. Certainly it’s not the Walt Disney World people expect, so maybe they would do some research. I know this is getting too much into the minutiae when we're talking in broad terms, but I digress.

Along the same lines, I think you will find that many DVC members represent a different demographic than the average repeat visitor to WDW. While I am not suggesting that DVC is a luxury item, it certainly is cost-prohibitive for some (whereas a once-a-year vacation may not be), and I think it is a safe assertion to say that DVC members as a whole are more likely to be financially well off than the average once-a-year visitor, and are thus also likely to have more discerning tastes (I'm sure many will dispute this--but I think in a broad and general sense, it's probably true). That would mean that in order to meet expectations, WDW has to make the parks appeal to these individuals. It's hard to guage right now given the economic state, but I think, even considering the economy, the large number of resale properties currently available suggests that some of those 1992 members are beginning to tire of their ownership interest. If WDW doesn't take note of this, what happens in 10 years, when the individuals who just purchased SSR, BLT, and AKV start getting tired of the properties--in much larger numbers?

I know a lot of this is highly speculatory, but I think it's at least based on reasonable contentions. Besides, beyond speculatory statements, what can we really offer on the topic?
 

hpyhnt 1000

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Absolutely. Me too. The pace does change and with that slower pace you notice more. You use the park in a different way than a day guest for sure. I like that aspect of being an AP as just having an ice cream cone on Main Street can be a restful experience as there is no meter. Over time though, I think that the AP becomes so sophisticated that it's harder for the park to maintain that magic spell. You seem to enjoy it for the right reasons.

Hm, I guess you could say that kinda happen to us. For years we had passes and we headed up to parks basically each month. After a while though, you begin to realize that the best way to see the parks isnt by going commando, its by slowing down. Now, we take our time, do experiences we probably would do if it was our first time, and even just take a few minutes to sit and people watch. It does make for a much more enjoyable experience. :)
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
The nitpicking Floridians have been discussed well
While I am a Floridian I do not really fit that mold. I know plenty that do but the hoard I tend to roll with are pretty easy going. We look at the parks for what they are and not what they were or should have been. For a short time I did become rater nitpicking and bitter but I took a step back and reevaluated my Disney priorities. I would much rather love the million things that are right with WDW than focus on the 50 things that are wrong.
 

WDWFigment

Well-Known Member
While I am a Floridian I do not really fit that mold. I know plenty that do but the hoard I tend to roll with are pretty easy going. We look at the parks for what they are and not what they were or should have been. For a short time I did become rater nitpicking and bitter but I took a step back and reevaluated my Disney priorities. I would much rather love the million things that are right with WDW than focus on the 50 things that are wrong.

That's why I said there are two general groups. Obviously not everyone fits into either group, and the categories leave out of a lot of people. I'm sure you could come up with 50 categories and still not hit every "type" of guest. I focused on those two as they are what I perceive to be the two largest contingents (I may even be wrong on that!).
 

MKCP 1985

Well-Known Member
Then layer on the AP motivation to return enough to get "into the black" for the money. Now you have guests with a big sense of entitlement. It's their park and now they are there enough to scrutinize the living daylights out of it because it's their front porch for the summer. They know the cast members by name and because of the extreme familiarity, their expectations of the experience rise to a level that's impossible to exceed because a light bulb has burned out, they changed the Dole Whip and Rod is off today and not at the Piano. IMHO no park was never designed for that level of scrutiny, although you can argue that it promises to. So the park has to respond to this audience because they have become the majority. Dangerous game that can be won mind you. It's a tribute to the company that the parks are as repeatable as they are!
careful, Eddie - you will incur the wrath of those against "Defenders of Mediocrity!" :lol: or D-Troops :lookaroun :ROFLOL:

Finally, there is FASTPASS. Another way to alter the experience for the guest and speed up the meter as now you are motivated to run from show to show gathering passes and running back, all in an effort to get it all over with as soon as possible. The "map of adventures" is reduced to a list of "to dos". Of course, guests love all of this because, like a buffet, they can get more in. "Forget the preshow, let's get this over with so we can hit three more rides." But it all comes at an experiential cost and IMHO erodes the assets. But guests love it (till they get sick of it).
:lookaroun So Disney HAS been watching me! :lol: But impatient people like me love not having to wait 90 minutes for Splash in the hot sun! Fastpass availability makes me more likely to make a trip to Walt Disney World. Some pre-shows (and post-shows for that matter) are entirely repeatable, but some beg to be skipped.


So.. back to our argument, WDW is one big "all you can eat" property, and so why bother to sweat the details on anything when it's about mass consumption, not tasting and savoring each course? AP's that come to savor are tasting velveeta, but the experiential gluttons just squeeze it on while looking at their watch and walking to the next park.
And the Disney Dining Plan puts this observation into literal reality! :eek:
 
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