Lee
Adventurer
And jt has officially gone around the bend.
:hammer:
Great post. I was right with you up until that line.:lol:tirian said:
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks
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jt04
Well-Known Member
This is a long post, but I think it's worth reading if someone wants to be part of a level-headed discussion.
It's a bit of both arguments: the demographics have changed (mostly Disney's own fault), but the company also isn't investing as it should (Wall Street has said so and has downgraded Disney stock to "hold"). I personally try to be very balanced about WDW, because even though I always enjoy my days there (I go frequently on weekends), as a CM, I see a lot of the behind-the-scenes nonsense that has stopped several fantastic projects from coming to the MK.
I agree that WDW has become a victim of its own success, but the marketing is screwed up right now, too: Guests feel it's their "right" to enjoy no lines, private time with the characters, and non-stop pixie dust, because that's how the place is advertised.
For business reasons I don't have time to explain, the mid-80s through mid-90s are generally considered WDW's heyday; the place was a cultural force that represented the pinnacle of American vacationing. WDW regularly added new attractions to its parks and remained immensely profitable. The Company marketed the full experience—the MK, Epcot Center, D-MGM, golf, parasailing, etc.—to attract the broadest demographic possible. WDW ads in high-end magazines like Condé Nast focused on Epcot, golf, and PI; newspaper ads generally targeted families. Broadcast network TV specials featured the latest, greatest attractions at the parks, increasing the "drool factor" among potential Guests.
Of course, it didn't hurt that the Studio was cranking out one high-quality hit after another, thereby increasing Disney's brand value and recognition among the general public. From "Roger Rabbit" to "Pretty Woman," and "The Little Mermaid" to "The Lion King," Disney's perceived value was at an all-time high since Walt's death. The public equated Disney with high quality and full experiences.
Fast forward to today. The parks aren't the trash heaps some jaded online bloggers claim, but they're also not as well maintained as they should be. The Marketing Machine pushes the MK, only the MK, and nothing but the MK, meaning that the park is swamped with Guests trying to get the magical experience falsely promised to them in the commercials. People-eating E-tickets have been closed with no replacements, meaning that those same Guests spend most of the day wandering from one overcrowded queue to another; and Disney has added enough seasonal events to effectively obliterate any true off season at the MK, which used to be utilized for routine maintenance. Add the resort's poor management, and even worse WDP&R management, which mindlessly blocked all necessary infrastructure upgrades back when profits were high (before the recession), and the MK is particularly in a precarious situation right now for Ops and Guest satisfaction.
Even worse, the studio hasn't turned out a well-regarded hit in a while, degrading people's perception of the WDC. Proof: Wall Street analysts have downgraded Disney stock to "hold," reasoning that the company's perceived brand value is dangerously low. Some analysts have even pointed out that the company hasn't presented any long-term growth plans for WDW to attract more Guest when the tourism industry picks up again. People equate Disney with Hannah Montana and the Jonas Brothers—great franchises for the Disney Channel, but bad for long-term profits, especially when the company once gave us "Beauty and the Beast." The public has become very savvy about Pixar vs. Disney, and Disney's CGI films have not been able to ride the Pixar coattails to success. I truly hope "The Princess and the Frog" changes this downhill slide!
Anyway, let me make this clear: I don't think WDW is falling apart. I don't think it's hopelessly stale or worthless, and I don't agree with the stupid fanboy mindset that the MK isn't worth visiting. There's still a lot of good stuff in WDW, and I enjoy it! BUT to maintain its long-term value, leadership is going to have to stop relying on the resort's nostalgic past, and start investing in it again. The MK cannot support its current Guest levels; what happens when the economy improves and attendance goes even higher? There is unfortunately a glut of character-centric attractions instead of original ideas, and we've already seen what happens when a character has been overused past its relevancy date (Stitch's Dance Party=epic fail). Epcot has two underused FW pavilions, creating unrealistic waits for the other FW attractions. DHS is finally getting the attention it has needed for about ten years, and DAK will need to add another land within the next ten years.
That's the unbiased fact. I still enjoy the place—heck, I personally don't agree with the online notion that DL effectively trumps the MK—but I do acknowledge that the resort needs a huge investment to maintain long-term growth and profitability. Frankly, I'd like to see it get new management too, all the way up to Rasulo, because the exec leadership needs to understand how the entertainment business works. That's what WDW is: entertainment. It's not the meaning of life; it's not the most important thing in America; it's not another business that can be run by spreadsheets. It's an entertainment-based resort for families who want to escape everyday life, and the only way to maintain the "Magic"—whatever the @!#$ that is considered to be right now—is to take creative risks.
New management huh? See I think that is what this is all about. Not refering to you specifically.
Disney is investing. It's funny how the D&G crowd never mentions that DCA is getting a huge investment. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT WAS SCREWED UP IN THE FIRST PLACE-----IRRELEVANT*. We are under new management! Blaming Iger for DCA is a stretch. If Eisner wanted to self-destruct, why would Iger get in the way?
And now Hong Kong is happening. All we heard was how Iger was failing because he couldn't make the deal happen. So now we have to say he is a success I guess!
And for the last time, WDW is getting investment. It's undeniable and it will only increase as the sheriff gets things back on track.
By the way, if people want to recreate what Roy did to Eisner (make no mistake they do) they will need somebody of Roy's stature. Because, by his silence, I think we can assume he is perfectly happy.
*CAPS for emphasis only. I'm not yelling. :wave:
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
EPCOT Explorer
New Member
It was sarcasm, sorry I forgot this.....
:lol:
Was it!?!:lol::lol::lol::lol:
I put a whole post up for you on that on the last page...
Lee
Adventurer
Wrong. If it was done right in the first place, they wouldn't have to be dumping such a pile of money in there now. That is very relevant.
Really? Where? And don't include hotel rooms or DVC units. As Tirian said, the industry and investors are looking for them to invest in reasons for guests to come back, a long term plan. Thus far, there isn't one.
And who exactly is the sheriff?
WDWFigment
Well-Known Member
This is a long post, but I think it's worth reading if someone wants to be part of a level-headed discussion.
I can't think of the last time I haven't agreed with on of your posts, and the trend isn't going to start here.
In fact, I think most people on the board will agree with you. I can only think of a handful of people (those with the most stringent beliefs that either: 1) Disney can do no wrong, or 2) we cannot effectively second guess Disney because they have the studies, etc., to determine what they need to do. I think group #1 isn't worth addressing, and group #2 has been clearly proven wrong by the market. Sure, a company has the information-resources to determine what needs to be fixed, but no company is infallible.) who would disagree.
What it comes down to is whether the company recognizes this need to change. You'll find some people here who take a few changes and their inclinations that "changes are a'comin'" as sufficient, whereas you'll find others who, until every last thing that suffers is fixed, won't believe that everything will be fixed. I don't think either of these extremes is correct (quite the contrary, I think logic and a basic level of common sense indicate they both are incorrect), but that seems to be the breakdown of the "loudest voices" around here. Regardless of how and what happens, from a business perspective, it sure is fun to discuss and debate along the way!
jt04
Well-Known Member
Not wrong. It is irrelevent as it relates to Iger. Period. It's not the same company. He did not give us the old DCA, Eisner did. Iger is fixing it.
[quote/] Really? Where? And don't include hotel rooms or DVC units. As Tirian said, the industry and investors are looking for them to invest in reasons for guests to come back, a long term plan. Thus far, there isn't one.
And who exactly is the sheriff?[/quote]
The crowds are there despite all the D&G predictions. There may be a long term plan nobody but the highest levels in Orlando know about. In fact I would bet money on it!
tirian
Well-Known Member
I didn't blame Iger, nor did I mention DCA; and I'm certainly not part of any doom-and-gloom crowd. Being a realistic businessperson doesn't make me evil by any means, especially since I've made it very clear that I love and enjoy WDW. Plus, we were discussing WDW, and specifically the MK, at the time.
That "sheriff" has so far been one man, who cannot stretch himself out over every area of the company. Improvements in the American parks would be much easier if Rasulo were replaced with someone who understands the theme park business, and I'm not trying to make him into a single scapegoat. Phil Holmes and Meg Crofton could have pushed for improvements many times in the past, but they didn't.
Generally, when I talk about the infrastructure and management issues, I'm referring to the previous problems and the slow-as-molasses response current management has taken to correcting those problems.
There is no simple answer for anything. The real world is complicated, not an "I like it/I don't" response that fanboys do online (not referring to you specifically, just being general).
Example: PI wasn't working because Disney wouldn't bring it up to current standards to compete with the modern club culture, BUT Disney couldn't do that without delving into decidedly non-Disney territory, so it shuttered PI. Yet Disney closed it without any replacements lined up, and it also did a clean sweep, foolishly closing the only profitable club on the island, the AC. The decision to shutter PI was in a sense necessary, but the actual execution was messy. Therefore, while PI's demise isn't completely Disney's fault—club culture has indeed changed—management did a sloppy job resolving the issue. Some people claim PI was great and Disney was evil, but that's not true. Others insist that Disney did the best job it possibly could have done, but that's not true either.
Yes, high-level execs have pushed good things through, and by many accounts, it looks like some good stuff for the MK is being pushed forward as well (
!); but that doesn't mean that WDP&R is 100% fine right now, because nearly all these improvements have been dictated by managers higher than Rasulo. Constantly overstepping the appointed leader to get things done is not a healthy way to run a business.I'm not saying that nothing good is happening, but I do say that it would be easier if certain execs (not all) would be replaced with people who actually understood the theme park industry.
BTW, I do not think that non-stop growth, E-tickets, celebrations, and other fanboy wet dreams are the answer either, because we are talking about a business, so please don't lump me into those weirdos!
(I'm not saying you are.)Anyway, I have been enjoying my time off the boards because I appreciate life and my job more, and I will continue to take frequent rests from the chatter; so if you respond and I don't, don't be offended.
tirian
Well-Known Member
jt04
Well-Known Member
I didn't blame Iger, nor did I mention DCA; and I'm certainly not part of any doom-and-gloom crowd. Being a realistic businessperson doesn't make me evil by any means, especially since I've made it very clear that I love and enjoy WDW. Plus, we were discussing WDW, and specifically the MK, at the time.
That "sheriff" has so far been one man, who cannot stretch himself out over every area of the company. Improvements in the American parks would be much easier if Rasulo were replaced with someone who understands the theme park business, and I'm not trying to make him into a single scapegoat. Phil Holmes and Meg Crofton could have pushed for improvements many times in the past, but they didn't.
Generally, when I talk about the infrastructure and management issues, I'm referring to the previous problems and the slow-as-molasses response current management has taken to correcting those problems.
There is no simple answer for anything. The real world is complicated, not an "I like it/I don't" response that fanboys do online (not referring to you specifically, just being general).
Example: PI wasn't working because Disney wouldn't bring it up to current standards to compete with the modern club culture, BUT Disney couldn't do that without delving into decidedly non-Disney territory, so it shuttered PI. Yet Disney closed it without any replacements lined up, and it also did a clean sweep, foolishly closing the only profitable club on the island, the AC. The decision to shutter PI was in a sense necessary, but the actual execution was messy. Therefore, while PI's demise isn't completely Disney's fault—club culture has indeed changed—management did a sloppy job resolving the issue. Some people claim PI was great and Disney was evil, but that's not true. Others insist that Disney did the best job it possibly could have done, but that's not true either.
Yes, high-level execs have pushed good things through, and by many accounts, it looks like some good stuff for the MK is being pushed forward as well (
I'm not saying that nothing good is happening, but I do say that it would be easier if certain execs (not all) would be replaced with people who actually understood the theme park industry.
BTW, I do not think that non-stop growth, E-tickets, celebrations, and other fanboy wet dreams are the answer either, because we are talking about a business, so please don't lump me into those weirdos!
Anyway, I have been enjoying my time off the boards because I appreciate life and my job more, and I will continue to take frequent rests from the chatter; so if you respond and I don't, don't be offended.
Awesome post. It is a relief to know someone "gets" what I'm saying. Thanks for not going all defensive. I agree with you almost always and appreciate the content you add to this forum. Thanks. :wave:
Buried20KLeague
Well-Known Member
The crowds are there despite all the D&G predictions. There may be a long term plan nobody but the highest levels in Orlando know about. In fact I would bet money on it!
[/quote]"He" isn't fixing DCA. TWDC is fixing it. And it was on the radar as needing to be done before he was CEO. He didn't swoop in on his magic unicorn and bring the idea to the table as if no one had thought about it before.
It HAD to be fixed. The park as it stood was an epic failure, pulling in 1/3 the attendance daily of the park next door, even when they would intentionally create offerings to move more people to DCA.
Make no mistake: The DCA is a MONSTEROUS thorn in the side of TWDC. This isn't a project that has Iger and TDA (and shareholders) dancing in the isles. This is Iger and TDA (and shareholders) all taking buckets in hand and bailing water out of the boat before it sinks.
And crowds are coming to WDW in droves right now because of the massive discounts and marketing push. And kudos to them for that. That's their job, and they've done it well. But that's why crowds are there right now... Unless I missed the marketing campaign based on all the new attractions and offerings currently at WDW... :lookaroun
How long they can sustain that is the question.
You believe they've got a long term plan in place. I think you're right. I just hope that it's a plan that mirrors the mid 80's to mid 90's way of thinking... As tirian outlined earlier. Problem is, I'm scared it won't be, based on the past 5-ish years.
tirian
Well-Known Member
Thanks for bringing that up, because I forgot to address it. That's another reason investors aren't satisfied with the WDC right now—the attendance levels are artificially high due to heavy discounts. Profits are actually very low, and the only way to increase post-recession profits will be to invest in the parks now.
jt04
Well-Known Member
The crowds are there despite all the D&G predictions. There may be a long term plan nobody but the highest levels in Orlando know about. In fact I would bet money on it!
"He" isn't fixing DCA. TWDC is fixing it. And it was on the radar as needing to be done before he was CEO. He didn't swoop in on his magic unicorn and bring the idea to the table as if no one had thought about it before.
It HAD to be fixed. The park as it stood was an epic failure, pulling in 1/3 the attendance daily of the park next door, even when they would intentionally create offerings to move more people to DCA.
Make no mistake: The DCA is a MONSTEROUS thorn in the side of TWDC. This isn't a project that has Iger and TDA (and shareholders) dancing in the isles. This is Iger and TDA (and shareholders) all taking buckets in hand and bailing water out of the boat before it sinks.
And crowds are coming to WDW in droves right now because of the massive discounts and marketing push. And kudos to them for that. That's their job, and they've done it well. But that's why crowds are there right now... Unless I missed the marketing campaign based on all the new attractions and offerings currently at WDW... :lookaroun
How long they can sustain that is the question.
You believe they've got a long term plan in place. I think you're right. I just hope that it's a plan that mirrors the mid 80's to mid 90's way of thinking... As tirian outlined earlier. Problem is, I'm scared it won't be, based on the past 5-ish years.[/quote]
I'm certain that fixing DCA was a tough pill to swallow. But it appears what they are doing is Disney quality. And though they probably were not dancing in the aisles when funding it, I predict they soon will be. People were blaming Iger for DCA's failure. So I just think it's fair to give him the credit for fixing it.
Just like if people are going to blame TDO for everything, then I think they should be praised for everything that has happened in Liberty Square.
Way to go TDO! :sohappy:
whylightbulb
Well-Known Member
I think you can find it, as you have said, in Pixar and also in Tokyo. Of course Pixar is that way because of people other than those that hang out in Burbank and Tokyo is managed by a different company.
I couldn't agree more.
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
I don't know whether I agree or not ... until recently I had APs to WDW, DL and DLP ... my 'pace' was different at every park. Because DLP was a longer trip and I was less familiar -- and because it's such a freaking amazing place thanks to folks like yourself -- I would soak in the details, but also be more in 'commando' mode to make sure I saw and did everything because I'm not (sadly) local to Paris.
At DL, it's different. The attractions are a big part of the equation (because again they're so good and -- usually -- maintained) ... but I can enjoy just walking around with an ice cream and watching fireworks or listening to music etc ... having had an AP hasn't changed the way I visit really. And while I lived in SoCal part of the year after getting an AP, it wasn't always like that. I still get the same excitement walking into Walt's park that I did on my first visit in 1990.
WDW is very different to me ... I never go there to go on rides or attractions as a primary reason. I go to enjoy the atmosphere. The whole package. That's why EPCOT and DAK are my favorites and that's why MK and TPFKaTD-MGMS tend to bore me after a few hours. Because of all the homogenizing, the removal of so many unique shops, closing attractions without replacements and, until recently, at MK, letting attractions fall into disrepair ... it just doesn't work like DLP, DL or even HKDL does for me.
It's not the having the AP part. I have had one since EC opened. There are few that can say that. But the 'magic' that was there in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s isn't anymore. Is WDW, and MK in particular, still a 'nice' place? Sure. But when did that become the scale Disney wished to be graded on?
While your 'all you can eat' analogy is apt in someways (I don't get how anyone can't be bored out of their mind after 12 hours of riding MK attractions that they've been on many times before whether they're an APer or DVCer or just come for 10 days from NJ every third summer), I think it goes deeper.
And that's a huge issue I have with the way TDO is running the parks. They used to be a much deeper, more textured/layered ... nuanced experience ... they aren't anymore. The stories WDI is trying to tell get lost when someone runs for a Space Mountain FP, jumps on Buzz, runs across the park to get a Splash FP, runs back because their 'window' opened on Space etc ... there's no need for Main Street to be anything but a giant outlet mall with facades ... why not throw 'toons in everywhere because you're selling the DISNEY BRAND ... not magical Disney vacation experiences ... nothing like princess costumes and Miley Cyrus CDs to tell the tale of Liberty Square.
Buried20KLeague
Well-Known Member
Visiting Tokyo is EXACTLY what has made me more cynical of WDW and how things are being run. It "opened my eyes", as it were.
It's that kind of quality that WDW used to have... And it's that kind of quality I want it to have again.
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
Of course they could. The reason Disney became the company it did was because it made lots of money by doing things the right way.
The thing is now they want to do things that are the polar opposite of how they once did them, pass them off as being the same quality all while raising prices.
It's a vicious cycle. This Walmarting that I talk about didn't all happen at once ... it's like a cancer that grows slowly and insidiously ... it was a change in busines model and fundamental philosophy that started in the mid-90s. Many of us saw the signs well before Y2K ... it was just a slow process and so many great things (like DAK) were still happening that it allowed you to look past the problems.
People who fixate on things like the lightbulb issue really miss the point.
No, things can almost never be perfect (although there are times when Disney has been in that department) ... the issue is when you let things slide, how far is acceptable? It's a slippery slope to mediocrity and damaging your reputation forever. A lightbulb here or there is OK, but what happens when you walk down Main Street in 2001 (pre 9/11) at MK, like I did, and a good 25% of the bulbs are out? Do you just rush off because your Pooh FP is good to go?
And merchandise is a key component to telling a story. I am going through my Disney 'stuff' during my downtime now and was flipping thru Birnbaum's 1985 guide the other night. It's amazing how detailed the descriptions of the shops and the merchandise were because they were all so different. They weren't all extensions of World of Disney/MK. They helped carry through the idea of a time and place. There's nothing like seeing Jack Skellington in the Space Mountain shop to take you out of any concept of Tomorrowland and make you realize you are just in Disney's Generic MAGIC Character Park and Outlet Mall.
Just some more thoughts ...
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