Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

The one thing I had to reluctantly face up to, was that these attractions we design and their "opening day" purity is not forever. The story begins to erode the day you walk out of that show and it's in the public's hands as they vote with their wallets and the hands of those whom it's passed on to. You have to face the fact that it is and never was "yours". The operators will "sand off one corner" and others that maintain it may change the color for the sake of it. Merchandise and food will envy it's location and want to convert the show areas into something that makes more money. If what you worked on stinks, it's usually gone and deserves to. But in any event, the creative authenticity and richness in most of the lands, from Main Street to New Orleans Square does erode over time. They may have evolved to be as, if not more popular with guests as that is to an extent what drives change, but they sometimes lose their point of view and focus. The project can end up being a big "why for?".

Mansion survived pretty intact for 40 years. A tribute to it's quality. Believe it or not, I think whomever did the queue project did it with all their best intentions and even thought by putting in the obscure references in that they were going to do something that truly would be appreciated on all levels, superfan and casual guest.

 

[WDW1974]

I largely agree with HBG2's incredibly detailed and thoughtful (dare I say reasoned) explanation for why the Mansion queue may (I haven't experienced it and am hesitant to pass complete judgment without seeing it in person) may be a disaster for the attraction's sense of place/theme/story.

I'd argue (quite a bit) that Disney has long since decided that its own rules no longer apply if it is convenient or cheaper to break or bend them.

My issue or concern with the new interactive queues is more of a 'we surrender, we surrender!' 'tude by Disney to today's generation/class of guests (because let's face it, this isn't just something you see with teens or the under 25 crowd) that needs constant stimulation. They were first called the 'MTV generation' when WDI began ripping out long immersive rides like those at EPCOT and shortening other attractions and films because it was said they couldn't sit still for a 20 minute ride or film.

Today, the 'excuse' is that guests (ages 4-84) are so addicted to their 'smart phones' (I am convinced they should be called dumb phones since you see people do dumb things with them all the time ... from driving while texting to walking without even paying attention to anything/anyone around them), they can't even stop to enjoy being in a theme park without Tweeting, updating their FB status, emailing Aunt Phyllis a Disney pie recipe or playing some game.

Now, perhaps the 'tude of many people would be that Disney is correct in simply giving in, that they shouldn't fight what they view as inevitable.

I'm not one of them.

Disney has always been at the top of the family themed entertainment game precisely because it provided the best product out there and because it didn't pander down to the LCD by giving guests what they wanted or thought they did, but by giving them what they didn't know they wanted ... often in amazing, trendsetting, revolutionary ways.

Say what you will about these queues, but they certainly don't aspire to that level of thought.

I also often wonder if people are playing with their 'toys' in the parks because they find them boring, which should really scare the folks who run and build them.

Maybe I'm just against technology (I'm not), but it does bother me when I'm standing in a Spanish fortress waiting maybe 10 minutes to ride PoC and everyone in line is playing with their toys. Why can't people take in their setting? Nothing takes you out of the story or escape as seeing someone tweet 'OMG!!! Just did SplashMtn and DAD Got soaked!'

If they're that bored, then maybe Disney should just do virtual theme parks and folks can stay home, sitting on the couch looking up at their 60-inch 3D screen and visit that way ... oops, wait a minute ... if they did that what would happen to all those timeshare, hotel, food/booze and merchandise sales. Nevermind.

 

[dweezil78]

Just my two cents -- from what I've seen, the queue looks fun. The Haunted Mansion is now 40+ years old. It's a historic attraction that guests start quoting from the moment they walk through its doors. Aside from toddlers and those extremely rare exception of guests that are unware of what awaits them inside, no one is actually surprised anymore by the attraction itself. That doesn't make it any less great than it is/was, but certainly a bit different than how it's been perceived in the past.

It's like a classic movie or pop song that has become a permanent fixture of pop culture. We've memorized all the scenes and can hum all the hooks without even thinking about it.

The reality is, the only people that are even going to realize that the new queue components are linked to the scenes inside are the diehard Disney fans. Most guests/HM newcomers will be too busy playing around, having conversations, etc. to make that connection on the first go-around. They're not studying these props, they're quickly interacting with them for few seconds in passing. And that's just on the outside... once they're in, you can bet they're really not soaking in all the details on that first ride-through. There's far too much going on for that to happen!

 

[HBG2]

One thing that shows as clearly as anything that "they just don't get" is the fact that the new queue stuff is laced with (supposedly) obscure tributes and references that only the hardcore fans are expected to pick up. There's the one-eyed black cat over here, some creatures from a Rolly Crump Museum of the Weird candelabra sketch incorporated into those carvings over there, Prudence Pock (must be a relative of Phineas Pock, right?), and so on. These are probably well-meaning overtures to the über-fans to prove that they too are Mansion geeks, and I guess they think that we will be overjoyed with these little easter eggs and welcome their new product with open arms.

I forgot who said it. "I dislike poems that put their lips up to be kissed."

The people for whom this queue is intended won't get those allusions, and the people who get those allusions are the very ones most likely to reject it. It comes across as a very clumsy attempt at sugarcoating.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The people for whom this queue is intended won't get those allusions, and the people who get those allusions are the very ones most likely to reject it. It comes across as a very clumsy attempt at sugarcoating.

Perhaps, but if you look at Micechat, most of the fans don't seem to be rejecting it outright at all, like it, love that WDC is investing in show, and can hardly wait to go.

"I did see a tribute to Marc Davis though - It looked like one of the tombstones was for dear departed grandfather Marc. I love that Disney Imagineers pay tribute to the people who came before them. I also kept looking for a tribute to X Atencio - I think he wrote the dialog. This new queue looks great - It's too bad it wasn't open yet when I was in the World in February - can't wait to go back and see it. I hope they do this with Big Thunder Mountain - that ride is in need of creativity like this. Looking out the windows at the trains buzzing around is OK but something like this would be fantastic."
(alias omitted- micechat comment from queue thread)

You our dear alum, know your Mansion and are a minority, even if your points are valid or well argued. My sense is that this was a sincere effort that was meant to please both the casual guest and hardcore fan. Now you'll HAVE to write that HM Book educate the other fans!

Wooohaahahahaha!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I probably would have also gone for a more subtle approach as well. More of " I just saw something move out of the corner of my eye" kind of stuff. If sounds were necessary, I would have made them more subdued and ominous. I believe these types of things would have made it more spooky.

I loved the "beating heart" you felt by standing on a grave in Knott's Boot Hill. The legend was on the tombstone...it was subtle but powerful.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/bananaphone5000/NEWGORILLA/9-69KnottsBootHill.jpg

 

[Malvito]

I'm more than a little amused about the hubbub over adding some interaction to a queue. The fact that the interaction exists does not require one to participate, if one would prefer to soak in the atmosphere.

Today, the 'excuse' is that guests (ages 4-84) are so addicted to their 'smart phones' (I am convinced they should be called dumb phones since you see people do dumb things with them all the time ... from driving while texting to walking without even paying attention to anything/anyone around them), they can't even stop to enjoy being in a theme park without Tweeting, updating their FB status, emailing Aunt Phyllis a Disney pie recipe or playing some game.

There are cellphone apps available that enable one to check out the status of attraction queues; a friend visited WDW not too long ago, and she noted afterwards, on her blog, how much time she saved thanks to her cellphone app. Others use their cells as their cameras. It is presumptuous to assume how people are using their tech, or that this use is for a "dumb" reason.

 

[HBG2]

Perhaps, but if you look at Micechat, most of the fans don't seem to be rejecting it outright at all, like it, love that WDC is investing in show, and can hardly wait to go.

"I did see a tribute to Marc Davis though - It looked like one of the tombstones was for dear departed grandfather Marc. I love that Disney Imagineers pay tribute to the people who came before them. I also kept looking for a tribute to X Atencio - I think he wrote the dialog. This new queue looks great - It's too bad it wasn't open yet when I was in the World in February - can't wait to go back and see it. I hope they do this with Big Thunder Mountain - that ride is in need of creativity like this. Looking out the windows at the trains buzzing around is OK but something like this would be fantastic."
(alias omitted- micechat comment from queue thread)

You our dear alum, know your Mansion and are a minority, even if your points are valid or well argued. My sense is that this was a sincere effort that was meant to please both the casual guest and hardcore fan. Now you'll HAVE to write that HM Book educate the other fans!

Wooohaahahahaha!

"...a civilization gone with the wind." Anyway, I wasn't thinking about the X or Marc tributes, things any middle-level Mansionite knows. I was referring to the really esoteric stuff...

This is a gift presented to an audience very few of which (if any) will accept it with pleasure or gratitude, I'm afraid. It proves that they were not cynical, that they really thought this thing was a great fit to what was there. Like I said, it comes across as clumsy sugar-coating, but I think it's actually something much sadder.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I'm more than a little amused about the hubbub over adding some interaction to a queue. The fact that the interaction exists does not require one to participate, if one would prefer to soak in the atmosphere.



There are cellphone apps available that enable one to check out the status of attraction queues; a friend visited WDW not too long ago, and she noted afterwards, on her blog, how much time she saved thanks to her cellphone app. Others use their cells as their cameras. It is presumptuous to assume how people are using their tech, or that this use is for a "dumb" reason.

While it is true that there are a great number of apps for cellphones related to improvement of your experience, including games, for many it is a medically recognized addiction. To me, one way to defeat this is to make the environment so engaging that you don't realize you are in a line at all. the Indy queue at DL is thought to be better than the ride for some. The HM prelude to the "Doombuggies" is a line of sorts, but so good you never know.

I applaud Disney for at least trying to break the monotony of waiting. This thread is about design and the "why" of things. I thought the debate of how this queue may effect the story was intelligent and beyond a typical rant.

What do you think?

 

[Pioneer Hall]

While it is true that there are a great number of apps for cellphones related to improvement of your experience, including games, for many it is a medically recognized addiction. To me, one way to defeat this is to make the environment so engaging that you don't realize you are in a line at all. the Indy queue at DL is thought to be better than the ride for some. The HM prelude to the "Doombuggies" is a line of sorts, but so good you never know.

I applaud Disney for at least trying to break the monotony of waiting. This thread is about design and the "why" of things. I thought the debate of how this queue may effect the story was intelligent and beyond a typical rant.

What do you think?

I think that times change, and Disney has two choices to deal with that change. They can go one route and ignore the technological world that we live in and see their clientele disappear as they look for new and immersive experiences. Or they can go the route that they are taking and working their hardest to integrate technology into the parks without (in my mind at least) taking over the actual experiences that Disney is known for.

I have read all the back and forth on the queue, and have to admit that perhaps to the most diehard fan that some of the unwritten story was indeed lost or changed. However, at the end of the day I think Disney made the right decision at the mansion and is making the right decisions in how it is looking to integrate technology in the parks. By giving people the opportunity to be engaged in line, they conquer two battles. One, they keep people interested and allow them to forget they are waiting in line. I am no Guest Relations host, but I am sure they get their fair share of complaints every day about how lines were long and now someone wants some sort of compensation for not getting to do enough. This alleviates that issue since people will not be immersed and hopefully not realize how long they might be waiting. Secondly, they are now integrating technology and hopefully keeping out of their cell phones. For the sake of Disney's bottom line, it is better for you to be immersed in Disney and nothing else of the world as best as you can. Any distraction from the outside world has the potential to cost them something down the line.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

"...a civilization gone with the wind." Anyway, I wasn't thinking about the X or Marc tributes, things any middle-level Mansionite knows. I was referring to the really esoteric stuff...

This is a gift presented to an audience very few of which (if any) will accept it with pleasure or gratitude, I'm afraid. It proves that they were not cynical, that they really thought this thing was a great fit to what was there. Like I said, it comes across as clumsy sugar-coating, but I think it's actually something much sadder.

This element was for Rolly himself! I agree, this was a very sincere "deep drilling" attempt. Wow. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom, I'm afraid. I know Disney fans who can recite all kinds of data but may not understand "why" things are constructed as they are. Trivia can be elevated to be meaningful when used properly or just remain trivial. I'm sure some will find this worthy of close inspection.

 

[fyn]

While it is true that there are a great number of apps for cellphones related to improvement of your experience, including games, for many it is a medically recognized addiction. To me, one way to defeat this is to make the environment so engaging that you don't realize you are in a line at all. the Indy queue at DL is thought to be better than the ride for some. The HM prelude to the "Doombuggies" is a line of sorts, but so good you never know.

I applaud Disney for at least trying to break the monotony of waiting. This thread is about design and the "why" of things. I thought the debate of how this queue may effect the story was intelligent and beyond a typical rant.

What do you think?

I posted in the PHOTO thread my disagreement with HBG2's analysis of the ride experience, specifically centering on the Ghost Host's speil and Grim Grinning Ghosts. I think the tone of both of those scripts is pretty contradictory to his assessment of the ride's story. What's more, I don't think the ride has a fully developed story. Like the original Pirates, to me at least, it's always been a series of vignettes, held together by a very loose story that you're not really told, but sort of "overhear" as you pass each of the show scenes.

I've previously that HBG2's analysis is impressive for its depth, but I don't agree with it. It reads like retconned fanfiction (I don't mean that offensively, plenty of universes I love have gotten better this way).

As for the interactive queues, I think we're at the beginning of something awesome. I look forward to WDI's understanding of newer technology and natural user interfaces maturing a bit, to the point where the technology sort of "disappears" and the experiences themselves become more magical. They're making awesome progress, though, if you compare Soarin's queue, SM's queue, and now this.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think that times change, and Disney has two choices to deal with that change. They can go one route and ignore the technological world that we live in and see their clientele disappear as they look for new and immersive experiences. Or they can go the route that they are taking and working their hardest to integrate technology into the parks without (in my mind at least) taking over the actual experiences that Disney is known for.

I have read all the back and forth on the queue, and have to admit that perhaps to the most diehard fan that some of the unwritten story was indeed lost or changed. However, at the end of the day I think Disney made the right decision at the mansion and is making the right decisions in how it is looking to integrate technology in the parks. By giving people the opportunity to be engaged in line, they conquer two battles. One, they keep people interested and allow them to forget they are waiting in line. I am no Guest Relations host, but I am sure they get their fair share of complaints every day about how lines were long and now someone wants some sort of compensation for not getting to do enough. This alleviates that issue since people will not be immersed and hopefully not realize how long they might be waiting. Secondly, they are now integrating technology and hopefully keeping out of their cell phones. For the sake of Disney's bottom line, it is better for you to be immersed in Disney and nothing else of the world as best as you can. Any distraction from the outside world has the potential to cost them something down the line.

Well said. When I was there in 1999, we developed a handheld technology to be used in the HM! It was bound by this rule. It would have to be "invisible" to the other guests in the show and not get in the way of or intrude on it. As a technology it had to be "social" in that it drew more than one person to it and created a culture that drew you into the existing story of the Mansion. It was an internal hit, but sadly never got executed. I left the company that year. But the point is that we are sensitive to how technology is a layer in a park and how to introduce it as something that is non obtrusive and complimentary to the environment, not a competitive element.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I posted in the PHOTO thread my disagreement with HBG2's analysis of the ride experience, specifically centering on the Ghost Host's speil and Grim Grinning Ghosts. I think the tone of both of those scripts is pretty contradictory to his assessment of the ride's story. What's more, I don't think the ride has a fully developed story. Like the original Pirates, to me at least, it's always been a series of vignettes, held together by a very loose story that you're not really told, but sort of "overhear" as you pass each of the show scenes.

I've previously that HBG2's analysis is impressive for its depth, but I don't agree with it. It reads like retconned fanfiction (I don't mean that offensively, plenty of universes I love have gotten better this way).

Hmmmm. Let's all check this out and get back to you. Show us how to find your thread..Thanks for the effort!

 

[Malvito]

While it is true that there are a great number of apps for cellphones related to improvement of your experience, including games, for many it is a medically recognized addiction. To me, one way to defeat this is to make the environment so engaging that you don't realize you are in a line at all. the Indy queue at DL is thought to be better than the ride for some. The HM prelude to the "Doombuggies" is a line of sorts, but so good you never know.

I applaud Disney for at least trying to break the monotony of waiting. This thread is about design and the "why" of things. I thought the debate of how this queue may effect the story was intelligent and beyond a typical rant.

What do you think?

I am very much in agreement. That is why I expressed amusement at said hubbub over the interactivity; my suggestion that the interaction can just as easily be ignored was directed towards the "People Need To Stop And Soak In The Atmosphere" contigent. Personally, I love to stop and soak in the atmosphere, but: A] not everybody visiting the parks is going to have my attitude, and B] I am not a parent trying to keep the excited children still while waiting to get on the attraction.

Personally, I have never waited that long to enter HM, but I have only once (and then quite by accident) been to MK during peak, wall-to-wall, open-air-sardine-can capacity.

 

[fyn]

Hmmmm. Let's all check this out and get back to you. Show us how to find your thread..Thanks for the effort!

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/showpost.php?p=4503427&postcount=225

To be clear, these points don't prove or disprove anything. HBG2's stance is that his interpretation is watertight, and I don't think it is. Could the mansion be viewed that way? Sure, but it forces you to accept other things in ways you normally wouldn't (a la Ghost Host, or GGG).

 

[HBG2]

And don't forget to read my rebuttal, found here. It's a twofer, since I'm also replying to this one, which immediately followed fyn's.

I'm mystified that people keep calling my analysis "story" or even "backstory." I keep saying it, and I'll say it again: the only "story" there is you going through a haunted house in real time. You yourself are the main character, the "story," if that's what you want to call it, is created as you experience it. You pick up a little sketchy information about the place and its history as you go along, but no real story is presented to you. You will not find in any of my little dissertations a story or backstory; it's just an analysis (right or wrong) of what you are seeing as you go along, based on reasonable (hopefully) inferences from what data is actually given to you.

 

[fyn]

And don't forget to read my rebuttal, found here. It's a twofer, since I'm also replying to this one, which immediately followed fyn's.

I'm mystified that people keep calling my analysis "story" or even "backstory." I keep saying it, and I'll say it again: the only "story" there is you going through a haunted house in real time. You yourself are the main character, the "story," if that's what you want to call it, is created as you experience it. You pick up a little sketchy information about the place and its history as you go along, but no real story is presented to you. You will not find in any of my little dissertations a story or backstory; it's just an analysis (right or wrong) of what you are seeing as you go along, based on reasonable (hopefully) inferences from what data is actually given to you.

At least for the points I made, it wasn't much of a rebuttal, so I didn't (and don't) have much to respond to. You essentially said "You're wrong, it can be viewed this way, and thus proves nothing." That doesn't give me much to work with.

I'm sure most of us have heard the simple summary of "It's a retirement home for ghosts." The Ghost Hosts speil easily works with this. The tone fits. He's never surprised, or hints that this materialization is somehow unique. If it were, we'd stand to reason that his speil would directly support that, rather than simply not disprove your theory. The same could be said for GGG. The song talks about commonplace spooky things. Things that happen all the time, and suggests a correlation between them and ghosts coming out to play. Sure, you could view it as on this particular occasion, these things are happening and ghosts are coming out to play, but that doesn't work without your base assumption (which you support with this view of GGG and the speil), and that's pretty much the definition of the "Begging the Question" logical fallacy. It's the same for the speil. Occam's Razor suggests, given these two premises, that we tend to accept whichever one has fewer assumptions.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

And don't forget to read my rebuttal, found here. It's a twofer, since I'm also replying to this one, which immediately followed fyn's.

I'm mystified that people keep calling my analysis "story" or even "backstory." I keep saying it, and I'll say it again: the only "story" there is you going through a haunted house in real time. You yourself are the main character, the "story," if that's what you want to call it, is created as you experience it. You pick up a little sketchy information about the place and its history as you go along, but no real story is presented to you. You will not find in any of my little dissertations a story or backstory; it's just an analysis (right or wrong) of what you are seeing as you go along, based on reasonable (hopefully) inferences from what data is actually given to you.

At least for the points I made, it wasn't much of a rebuttal, so I didn't (and don't) have much to respond to. You essentially said "You're wrong, it can be viewed this way, and thus proves nothing." That doesn't give me much to work with.

I'm sure most of us have heard the simple summary of "It's a retirement home for ghosts." The Ghost Hosts speil easily works with this. The tone fits. He's never surprised, or hints that this materialization is somehow unique. If it were, we'd stand to reason that his speil would directly support that, rather than simply not disprove your theory. The same could be said for GGG. The song talks about commonplace spooky things. Things that happen all the time, and suggests are correlation between them and ghosts coming out to play. Sure, you could view it as on this particular occasion, these things are happening and ghosts are coming out to play, but that doesn't work without your base assumption (which you support with this view of GGG and the speil), and that's pretty much the definition of the "Begging the Question" logical fallacy. It's the same for the speil. Occam's Razor suggests, given these two premises, that we tend to accept whichever one has fewer assumptions.

While I throughly enjoyed reading both of your thoughts on the Haunted Mansion, I have to ask that the back and forth stay within one thread if you don't mind. The discussion is great...but I don't want this thread, which is filled with many different topics, to just materialize into the same conversation going on elsewhere.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I've never consciously considered this "one-off" vs. "ongoing" question, and the HM is one of my favorite things anywhere (not just favorite Disney rides, but favorite things on planet Earth).

After reading some arguments from both camps, I have to say there are convincing factors in favor of each...and it's interesting to me to note that the tension seems to arise from the well-known tension that exists within the ride itself.

I think the strongest evidence for the "one-off" interpretation is primarily in the darker Claude Coats half (I know the groundskeeper features prominently in the argument, but I think the behavior of the ghosts themselves early on is more convincing than trying to psychoanalyze the expressions and body language of a single AA), while the best argument for the "just another night" school of thought is found in the peppy Marc Davis half, which does strike me as having a feel of familiar joviality about it.

I do have a striking feeling that this is all academic in some sense, and if you were to ask a dozen of the cooks who helped to create the "soup" of the original attraction, you might get a dozen different answers to this question.

And while we're on the topic, whatever happened to the interpretation that the sudden and (let's just say it) jarring shift in tone mid-attraction is because your descent from the attic actually represents a fatal fall, after which you're able to see "beyond the veil" yourself? Granted, this is refuted by some of what comes after, most specifically the GH sending you on your way as if no harm has befallen you...but I could cook up an internally consistent storyline that accounts for that if I needed to.

I guess the bottom line is this argument strikes me a bit like trying to justify different interpretations of Scripture. Any single interpretation of what the Bible "really means" is going to rub up against verses that seem to refute it, because so many viewpoints are represented within it. I think it might be the same with our beloved Mansion.