Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[HBG2]

You make a good analysis in your post and on the blog. Fascinating stuff.

I believe that the interactive queue works for the same reasons you think it doesn't. Why should the ghostly distortions be limited to the inside of the mansion? I think what you now see in the queue are the same type of ghostly tricks in the Stretching Room paintings that you reference in the link I bolded. What you see in the queue could also be the result of ghostly manipulation. Why should the new crypts be taken literally, but the Stretching Room portraits should not? In keeping with the mythology of the attraction, the ghosts have not materialized at this point in our experience, and the fact that they won't materialize until the seance is performed and the sympathetic vibrations received is still intact. Is it necessary to witness the metamorphosis to communicate the ghostly deception? I don't think so. The new queue, in my opinion, actually adds another layer to the experience that was already there. The guest happens upon this bizarre graveyard where, unbeknownst to him, the metamorphosis has already occurred. He feels, but can't quite place, the presence of the otherworldly. It's so surreal - am I imagining this? Once inside, the guest for the first time witnesses the disquieting metamorphosis, but you still wonder whether your mind is playing tricks on you, which is compounded by the Ghost Host's eerie question: "Is this haunted room actually stretching, or is it your imagination?"

Granted, this illusion is slightly breached by the poetess that talks to you. If they had kept her silent and given a more tangible payoff (e.g. a wind gust) for finishing the poem, it would be more effective. The constant playing of the instruments is less destructive of the illusion, but putting these effects on a delay timer like the ceiling drop in the Indiana Jones Adventure might be a good improvement.

Overall, I believe this is a great plussing to the Haunted Mansion. That's just my humble opinion, and I'm eager to hear more of what you (and Eddie too!) have to say about it.

One of the most important points about the ghostly manipulations and poltergeist activity inside the HM is that you can't be sure if it's "really there" or a product of your imagination. They're messing with your head. This is explicitly put before you: Is this haunted room actually stretching, or is it your imagination?

The queue blatantly answers this question in advance: it's not your imagination. It's really there. Bang, the mystery is solved before it begins. Way to go, Mr. Carsillo.

You ask, why should the queue manifestations be taken literally? Because you can put your hands right on them, see them, hear them, touch them. If you stood close enough to the bookcase, these manifestations would literally bang you in the head! Seriously, if you wanted to make it absolutely certain that they be taken literally, could you do any more than what they do?

I've decided I need to discuss the "world of the HM" at my blog, since I've been throwing that phrase around so much, and it's so unclear to so many what it means. My fault there. But actually, this whole thing can be put in a nutshell.

The world of the HM is simply our world, the real world, except that in the HM world, ghosts are real. The main character in the story is you. The "story" is simply you going through a haunted house in real time. Oh, you learn a little history about the house in the process, a sketchy backstory, but the story is you in a haunted house, and nothing more.

With the new queue, the world in which the ghosts are real (a fiction) is no longer our world, the real world; rather, it too is fictional. So the whole thing is now a show, and you are not really a character in it but only a spectator to the show. It's fun in that you get to walk around in that world a little, but with the new queue taken into the whole, the environment in which you find the ghosts is manifestly just as fictional as they are. And since you do not live in such a world, you are no longer the main character.

In a nutshell:

HM world until now: Depiction of your world, except ghosts are real
WDW HM world now: Depiction of a fictional world, in which ghosts are real

 

[RSoxNo1]

I don't have an issue with the Leota tombstone, so long as it functions as it was designed to function. Everything is supposed to be quiet and ordinary up to that point, an eerie house with an eerie graveyard next to it, but nothing supernatural. Then you catch something out of the corner of your eye, and wonder if you just imagined it. Now you're uncertain whether your forebodings are childish or well-grounded.

I've heard CM's testify to the Leota stone doing exactly what it's supposed to do. "Mommy, that face moved! I saw it!" "Shhh, don't be silly. Look at it. See? It's not moving. You imagined it."

By the way, think how utterly this has been destroyed by the new queue. After the whack-a-mole bookcase, everybody has seen blatant ghostly movements already, so whoop-de-doo if the Leota stone fidgits a bit.

Leota is a special ghost. She's the only one who has successfully "crossed over" already, before you even go in, and as you will discover, she's now available to help all the others do so as well. Makes sense: it was her day job while she was alive, and she knows the right spells. So the notion that Leota's spirit is already free to mess around a little is perfectly logical.

That's interesting stuff. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[HMF]

That's interesting stuff. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

HBG2's blog is the most informative piece on the Mansion maybe even surpassing the Surrell book I even promoted it on my Podcast.
http://blog.miceatworkpodcast.com/2011/03/18/mice-at-work-podcast-episode-25.aspx I helped assemble some of the Lafitte clues back in the day on micechat which HBG2 analyzed much more than I ever could.

 

[darthspielberg]

As much as I disagree with you, HBG2, your thoughts are very well put, and I enjoy reading them. You have passion for the Mansion that is unmatched, and Disney needs more fans like you.

That said, I think the new queue looks fun, but I'll judge how accurate that look is when I visit it in person.

 

[lazyboy97o]

If they do this to Anaheim, then the HM is yesterlanded for me.

I just made this point elsewhere, but I think it is no accident that right now these interactive queues are being implement only at the Magic Kingdom, a park itching for capacity. An expanded queue is just that, expanded, it can hold more people. I think part of the interactivity is to distract people from the growing crowds at the Magic Kingdom. The world's busiest theme park is being pushed for capacity and larger queues that also distract will help this growing problem. Also Disneyland has a much larger repeat audience, and the same gag repeated hardly holds as much interest.

The guest happens upon this bizarre graveyard where, unbeknownst to him, the metamorphosis has already occurred. He feels, but can't quite place, the presence of the otherworldly. It's so surreal - am I imagining this? Once inside, the guest for the first time witnesses the disquieting metamorphosis, but you still wonder whether your mind is playing tricks on you, which is compounded by the Ghost Host's eerie question: "Is this haunted room actually stretching, or is it your imagination?"

Only a dolt would think his mind is playing tricks on him. They are all straightforward causality, Do A and B always happens, baring a failure of some sort. You do it and you watch other people do it and its the same thing each time. As HBG2 pointed out, the attraction takes the view that this is your first time visiting this creaky old house. Part of what makes Pirates of the Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion so compelling is the shear volume of what is going on, at so many levels and layers, within the attraction. Many characters have a loop of dialogue intended to prevent one from hearing the same thing repeated over and over, but these additions do just that, the same things over and over until they break.

It makes sense that a boardwalk would be themed with a victorian and or early 21th century architecture theme, these are the styles that people positively associate with boardwalks.

Even Victorian is a very broad category of styles, but Disney has found a very comfortable synthesis that it is starting to use repeatedly when faced with the problem of capturing a less than widespread romance. There are plenty of styles that could have been appropriately employed, the early 20th century was the foundations of today's hyper-pluralism.

HBG2's blog is the most informative piece on the Mansion maybe even surpassing the Surrell book I even promoted it on my Podcast.
http://blog.miceatworkpodcast.com/2011/03/18/mice-at-work-podcast-episode-25.aspx I helped assemble some of the Lafitte clues back in the day on micechat which HBG2 analyzed much more than I ever could.

He needs to compile it into a book! HBG2 I am letting you know that I would pay good money for a book of your work on The Haunted Mansion.

 

[flavious27]

Even Victorian is a very broad category of styles, but Disney has found a very comfortable synthesis that it is starting to use repeatedly when faced with the problem of capturing a less than widespread romance. There are plenty of styles that could have been appropriately employed, the early 20th century was the foundations of today's hyper-pluralism.

Didn't they use a non Victorian theme in the first go around for dca?

 

[HMF]

He needs to compile it into a book! HBG2 I am letting you know that I would pay good money for a book of your work on The Haunted Mansion.

We have had 999 people ask HBG2 to write a book on the Mansion but there is room for a thousand! Any volunteers?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Didn't they use a non Victorian theme in the first go around for dca?

Yes, but they are still going for a non-Victorian theme for the entirety of the park. The term Victorian relates to the reign of Queen Victoria from 20 June 1837 – 22 January 1901. When Disney's California Adventure opening it was a all a postmodern look at contemporary California. That is very different from most of what is being done now, still all evoking an era at least 20 years after the death of the Queen.

The new Paradise Pier is a romantic look at the seaside in the 1920s. yes, Victorian pieces remained in existence and Victorian based elements of ornament were part of new work, but it was not the sole source of the seaside aesthetic. That people expect a certain Victorian aesthetic from the company shows how they have synthesized a look that itself evokes "Disney", what is often referred to as "Micktorian".

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Yes, but they are still going for a non-Victorian theme for the entirety of the park. The term Victorian relates to the reign of Queen Victoria from 20 June 1837 – 22 January 1901. When Disney's California Adventure opening it was a all a postmodern look at contemporary California. That is very different from most of what is being done now, still all evoking an era at least 20 years after the death of the Queen.

The new Paradise Pier is a romantic look at the seaside in the 1920s. yes, Victorian pieces remained in existence and Victorian based elements of ornament were part of new work, but it was not the sole source of the seaside aesthetic. That people expect a certain Victorian aesthetic from the company shows how they have synthesized a look that itself evokes "Disney", what is often referred to as "Micktorian".

The first go round of PP was very lightly themed due to acute budget restrictions. As was said, there is a heavy victorian overlay now, and my guess is that it is supposed to be an earlier "layer" to the 1920's when Walt arrived in California. In the 20's you'd see more of a colonial revival look with shutters or more Mission or even Spanish Colonial Revival (launched at an Expo in 1915 in San Diego). DHS Hollywood Blvd is a good example all of those looks living nicely together. If you look at Santa Cruz Boardwalk, Playland, Santa Monica Pier, Ocean Park in Venice, etc. you see how eclectic it was. Art Deco as we know it today was high style then (didn't really catch on till the 30's) and most of what existed was simpler and from earlier periods like the teens. Watch Laurel and Hardy shorts (Sugar Daddies) and you'll see 20's Venice Pier. Charlie Chapin's "The Circus" shows the Venice Pier in 1928 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpmkKbghQTM. What I like best about what you see in those films is the funkiness and the variety of style. Roscoe Arbuckle's short "Coney Island" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-H06G7eiE really shows the fantasy architecture of Luna Park and how it was not even really victorian but it's own thing. You'll find really ornate "Beaux Arts" looking design elements applied to or in front of really plain whitewashed wood buildings. All artifice. It was not too slick, just fun and exciting. I love the look of those old seaside parks.

Then have a look at this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH7ON4JiD-I&feature=related where these boarding school girls go the Dreamland, the EPCOT, or highbrow park at Coney Island. Lots of faux classicism here. Plaster on planks. They enter the arched entry of "Creation" building (some refer to the Mermaid ride as being inspired of this facade). Worth a look. The building is at 4:28. You'll see a hubless Coaster and (the forerunner of the Wacky Soap Box Racer Ride), the Steeplechase. Awesome clip. have fun and let me know your thoughts. in general, there is a richness to these worlds only research and the right details can convey.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

As much as I disagree with you, HBG2, your thoughts are very well put, and I enjoy reading them. You have passion for the Mansion that is unmatched, and Disney needs more fans like you.

That said, I think the new queue looks fun, but I'll judge how accurate that look is when I visit it in person.

The reality is that it is fun. At least the video makes it look like that. Guests will love it and that means that it will likely get into the other parks. If it's too fun, the guests won't leave, and that's another story. It's like MP3's catching on and now music overall is compressed and flatter and to some forever compromised, as richer sounding Records lost the war. Something is missing and those who only buy MP3's will never know. To purists in story, it is the like revising Han Solo from shooting Greedo first in the Star Wars legacy. Changing that scene makes Han a different person and has a ripple effect on the whole story.

At this point. You can't go back. It's a hit. And if you are an average guest you may sense "a disturbance in the force" long term, but you are having too much fun being distracted by the dark side to articulate it or complain. I say you skip the queue and go late when there is no line if you prefer the "Director's Cut".

 

[WDWGoof07]

One of the most important points about the ghostly manipulations and poltergeist activity inside the HM is that you can't be sure if it's "really there" or a product of your imagination. They're messing with your head. This is explicitly put before you: Is this haunted room actually stretching, or is it your imagination?

The queue blatantly answers this question in advance: it's not your imagination. It's really there. Bang, the mystery is solved before it begins. Way to go, Mr. Carsillo.

You ask, why should the queue manifestations be taken literally? Because you can put your hands right on them, see them, hear them, touch them. If you stood close enough to the bookcase, these manifestations would literally bang you in the head! Seriously, if you wanted to make it absolutely certain that they be taken literally, could you do any more than what they do?

I've decided I need to discuss the "world of the HM" at my blog, since I've been throwing that phrase around so much, and it's so unclear to so many what it means. My fault there. But actually, this whole thing can be put in a nutshell.

The world of the HM is simply our world, the real world, except that in the HM world, ghosts are real. The main character in the story is you. The "story" is simply you going through a haunted house in real time. Oh, you learn a little history about the house in the process, a sketchy backstory, but the story is you in a haunted house, and nothing more.

With the new queue, the world in which the ghosts are real (a fiction) is no longer our world, the real world; rather, it too is fictional. So the whole thing is now a show, and you are not really a character in it but only a spectator to the show. It's fun in that you get to walk around in that world a little, but with the new queue taken into the whole, the environment in which you find the ghosts is manifestly just as fictional as they are. And since you do not live in such a world, you are no longer the main character.

In a nutshell:

HM world until now: Depiction of your world, except ghosts are real
WDW HM world now: Depiction of a fictional world, in which ghosts are real

Only a dolt would think his mind is playing tricks on him. They are all straightforward causality, Do A and B always happens, baring a failure of some sort. You do it and you watch other people do it and its the same thing each time. As HBG2 pointed out, the attraction takes the view that this is your first time visiting this creaky old house. Part of what makes Pirates of the Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion so compelling is the shear volume of what is going on, at so many levels and layers, within the attraction. Many characters have a loop of dialogue intended to prevent one from hearing the same thing repeated over and over, but these additions do just that, the same things over and over until they break.

In hindsight, trying to apply my logic to HBG2's premises doesn't work. All this means is that the Haunted Mansion is open to different interpretations, in which the introduction of the new queue may or may not work. In my view, the new queue does work, but my view has been better articulated by others in other threads.

 

[lazyboy97o]

In hindsight, trying to apply my logic to HBG2's premises doesn't work. All this means is that the Haunted Mansion is open to different interpretations, in which the introduction of the new queue may or may not work. In my view, the new queue does work, but my view has been better articulated by others in other threads.

But it is an interpretation that it is hokey and fake, one has never really be excepted, or successful, within a Disney environment. At the new elements we're all laughing at the silly notion of ghosts and the A=B causality limits any mystery behind the cause, its all created trickery.

 

[Bonemachine]

I realize I'm late to the discussion but as for the Little Mermaid building at DCA, are we assuming they're not going to age it before it opens? While aging it obviously won't change the structure of the building, it would certainly make it look less like a plain shopping center building. Does anyone know if they plan to age it? I agree that right now it looks way too neat and basic like a Barnes and Noble but I figured they were going to age it. :shrug:

 

[Eddie Sotto]

But it is an interpretation that it is hokey and fake, one has never really be excepted, or successful, within a Disney environment. At the new elements we're all laughing at the silly notion of ghosts and the A=B causality limits any mystery behind the cause, its all created trickery.

That went right over my head (not hard to do!).

 

[lazyboy97o]

That went right over my head (not hard to do!).

In the past you have discussed elements of layering and design all intended to create the impression that the environment is a real place with the ultimate goal being to get people to suspend their disbelief. I think that the queue rejects the notion of suspension of disbelief. It takes the position that you know this is a "Disney" (safe and non-threatening) ride, that you the final twist of ghosts being fun, and even funny looking, characters and some of you may even know the history of the attraction.

Any sense of mystery is further eroded by the A=B nature of the interactive elements, your one action always causes the same reaction. This is not the cultural notion of ghosts, they do strange and unusual things but no one set of actions ever generates the exact same response. This is all done in the open where others can watch and see what is happening, so before ever engaging they have expectations of a certain outcome. Being all together also hurts this because it is a dedicated zone of interactivity versus a queue in which elements are spread throughout and blended into the other scenery. There is no puzzle, nothing that makes you poke around and wonder why something happened this time but not the other.

Going back to my first paragraph I think there have been times where Disney has built something where the guests are not supposed to sknow its fake and sort of hokey, the most infamous being The Enchanted Tiki Room - Under New Management. It is the sort of tounge-in-cheek attutide usually rejected by Disney and its fans (excepting the Jungle Cruise which seems to work some how) and is usually expected, and seen, at the Universal Studios parks and productions.

 

[darthspielberg]

Here's a question for you Eddie (and actually to all who are un-impressed by the new stuff) to continue in this line of discussion.

What would you have done differently to create a new queue for The Haunted Mansion, or would like to have seen happen?

 

[StageFrenzy]

What if they put these elements after the ride or if they were more subtle and on a rotation or timer like the Leota effect. I have seen and heard people scream at Leota, would it be preferable to the purists if it was a hint of something, like the Leota stone or the howling wolf?

 

[HBG2]

Here's a question for you Eddie (and actually to all who are un-impressed by the new stuff) to continue in this line of discussion.

What would you have done differently to create a new queue for The Haunted Mansion, or would like to have seen happen?

They could have simply expanded the existing graveyard with a lot of the nice new anonymous grave markers and cemetery ornaments that are out there on the hill now (and I like the shovels!), added the great new Imagineer tributes in the traditional form of headstones, and then opened it to the public, with nice neat pathways lacing through it so you could stroll around and read the stones, some of which might be facing in various directions so that your curiosity is piqued and you have to walk over and around to look. Like a real graveyard: you can walk around in it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Here's a question for you Eddie (and actually to all who are un-impressed by the new stuff) to continue in this line of discussion.

What would you have done differently to create a new queue for The Haunted Mansion, or would like to have seen happen?

I think HGB2 has a good idea. I think more water traffic on the Rivers of America would help, which I read suggested somewhere.

If interactivity was my assignment the first thing I would do differently is that I would want to rip up the most used portions of the existing queue so that elements could be strung throughout the queue. I would also want to go for subtlety, maybe a statue piece that moves and every so often causes the eyes to look over at the person causing the action.

That said, in my experience, the line at The Haunted Mansion is usually rather quick moving. I think the attraction was chosen in part for the convenience of adding these elements. This addition came with little to no interruption of the attraction's daily operation, compared to The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, and there is a lot to draw upon for effects.

What if they put these elements after the ride or if they were more subtle and on a rotation or timer like the Leota effect. I have seen and heard people scream at Leota, would it be preferable to the purists if it was a hint of something, like the Leota stone or the howling wolf?

I think it would work better, but would still expand the area of what is haunted. The look of a lot of the elements would still be a contrast to the very realistic look of the Mansion's exterior.

 

[yankspy]

I probably would have also gone for a more subtle approach as well. More of " I just saw something move out of the corner of my eye" kind of stuff. If sounds were necessary, I would have made them more subdued and ominous. I believe these types of things would have made it more spooky.