Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Orangelake555]

If you look at the posted renderings, it is clearly not finished yet. So this is speculation and a bit early to being a judge of anything. but you can react to the basic forms and approach.

Yet two things stood out to me. Firstly, as pretty as it is with that powerful arch and bas relief, it raises kind of a huge expectation for a dark ride to deliver on. I get that they are doing a kind of "Coney Island meets Santa Cruz Boardwalk" kind of style and that's awesome, but maybe it could have been richer in detail at the ground level and secondly, it could have been more human scale. Buildings of that time were not constructed expensively, but looked so. They were plaster artifice and wood. Again I'm waiting till they finish it with all the bells and whistles, as that's likely what they will do.

I think the Barnes and Noble and "mall" analogies are coming from mega scale and the exterior finish (blown stucco?) that is the same as most big box malls. The trim looks "planted on" with little depth. Textures are very important as they set the tone for the building. Budgets usually attack them first as they seem insignificant, but they're not. Maybe there is another layer or surface they have yet to add that is more period and rich looking? The colors are likely just a base coat to age over so ignore that. There are no graphics and props yet either. The hard part is that it's costly to build a "period" building out of modern materials, as when it gets to be a certain scale, the materials themselves take over the impression and flavor. This to me is the failing of the Swan and Dolphin. The "close up" falls apart as the materials are intrinsically cheap stucco, so it does not pay off the anticipation.

That was a big John Hench thing. The close up paying off your first impression from a distance. It keeps you believing.



Having said all that, it's probably the best architecture for a show building at DCA and they're not even done, but it's fun to discuss what makes a building appealing.

According to the votes on the micechat thread, it's a mega hit already.

OK after looking at the sketches for what the finished facade is supposed to look like I get a better sense of how it is supposed to end up. Maybe its because of my first impression of it or because I actually saw the scetch for WDW's first but it still seems something is off, something I cant really but my finger on except to say B&N or Mall entrance. Or an entrance to a casino on the Atlantic City boardwalk. Maybe its my east coast upbringing but this doesn't remind me of a boardwalk at all, are boardwalks that much different in SoCal then the jersey shore?

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

Perhaps the new building matches the scale of the surrounding food areas. Those buildings seem quite large as well. Nonetheless, it seems a gentler scale is a better fit for the intimacy of the West Coast Disney parks. There's just not the land like WDW to let structures be spread out and seemingly less overwhelming.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Eddie, this is exactly what my first impression was; as it is now, the structure seems to clash with the architecture one expects from a Disney theme park. It's too big, too lifesized, too much like a big box store. Maybe this will be fixed in the future, but if they intend to simply plant small trees and shrubs around it, it will look even more like it belongs in a parking lot.

Incidentally, this is the same issue I have with Universal theme parks. I know much of their staff is former WDI, yet Uni structures seem to be visually off from the "architecture of reassurance" John Hench and Co. perfected. They're a little too big for the intimate scale of a theme park; and when a realistic building sits among others utilizing forced perspective, the effect is even more jarring.

I noticed you mentioned "pavilions," which made me think about Epcot's superstructures. IMO, the massive Epcot pavilions only work because all of Future World follows that aesthetic, and each building is surrounded by expansive landscaping.

Scale is a big factor in creating Disney "magic". Main Street is charming in part because it is somewhat miniature and non threatening. So is the Castle. WDW Castle is large but is still forced in perspective to a degree. I love it. Universal is mostly full scale so it has a sense of reality. people love miniature things and especially if it is subtle. It's childlike and remenicent of toys. Ironically, the "Palace of Fine Arts" inspired rotunda that is next to LM, is very much scaled down from it's inspiration but I think you'd never put that together as it has no windows or anything for which to compare human size to. Scale does equal feeling.

The Disneyland Hotel in DLP when first designed was a shock to the system. It was supposed to be 2 stories but ended up being a mammoth 5. The little Main Street lived in it's shadow. We had to "break it down" in scale by adding more muntins to the windows to make them seem smaller in scale, additional towers and roof breaks, and other forced perspective tricks to make it seem less offensive to the size of the Main Street buildings. It became more of a "skyline" than a single monolith. Always bothered me as there is only so much you can do. Still wish it was two stories, but I got over that one years ago. I understand your point about "big boxes" dropped into the parks, they can be deadly.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

OK after looking at the sketches for what the finished facade is supposed to look like I get a better sense of how it is supposed to end up. Maybe its because of my first impression of it or because I actually saw the scetch for WDW's first but it still seems something is off, something I cant really but my finger on except to say B&N or Mall entrance. Or an entrance to a casino on the Atlantic City boardwalk. Maybe its my east coast upbringing but this doesn't remind me of a boardwalk at all, are boardwalks that much different in SoCal then the jersey shore?

Not really. They are pretty similar in style. Coney Island was the model for all of them. Brighton Beach and Blackpool in the UK are great seaside inspirations too.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Speaking of scale, texture, and charm, tonight we're heading here for some grub. A little bit of "Knott's" in the hills northeast of Malibu!

http://oldplacecornell.com/

 

[lazyboy97o]

I would have rather seen PP go more 1920's and less victorian to make it wholly unique. The early character graphics kind of do that. The Roaring 20's area of Knott's was well done in it's day and was a hit, but was more reliant on wood and period construction methods that gave it sincerity and charm. It's use of neon was extensive and that set it apart too. Maybe that's more of where I'm coming from on this, is that the execution is grand, but not as charming and personal like you would expect from the other PP facades they recently redid. We'll see what it looks like when they wrap it up. In any case, the Seaside Pier idea seems a good one.

I think the "Micktorian" aesthetic is becoming a little cliche and overused, aside from just confusing a lot of people about Paradise Pier. Its clear they were trying to do the layering you have discussed in the past, to show the place has a history, but I think they did a little too much leaning towards Victorian, which I think is / is becoming Disney's safe architectural style. Maybe whenever the shops and other original elements get their retheming this will be adjusted.

Cannot say I am very familiar with the Roaring 20s section of Knott's Berry Farm. Apart from being before my time, my family deprived me of experiencing the park, which would have been right at the end of the Knott family's ownership. I really need to get my hands on a copy of Knott's Preserved.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think the "Micktorian" aesthetic is becoming a little cliche and overused, aside from just confusing a lot of people about Paradise Pier. Its clear they were trying to do the layering you have discussed in the past, to show the place has a history, but I think they did a little too much leaning towards Victorian, which I think is / is becoming Disney's safe architectural style. Maybe whenever the shops and other original elements get their retheming this will be adjusted.

Cannot say I am very familiar with the Roaring 20s section of Knott's Berry Farm. Apart from being before my time, my family deprived me of experiencing the park, which would have been right at the end of the Knott family's ownership. I really need to get my hands on a copy of Knott's Preserved.

Agree. Victorian can be a default for Disney-esque design. I remember Tony Baxter discussing the design of Main Street with us early on in the Paris project. His point was that moldings and detail don't really mean anything unless they are part of something bigger. They are just mindless decor. I took that to mean that you really want to build some personality and story into the interiors and facades that set them apart emotionally. "Main Street Motors" being a car dealership was bathed in dark masculine colors and had certain details appropriate and specific to that kind of function, etc. It's funny to me how many of the same details are repeated over and over with no real purpose beyond ornament. The Ticket Booth/Mark Twain roof cresting for one.

The Roaring 20's at Knott's was designed by Rick Campbell, a man who understood the construction methods of that time, right down to the beaded 2 by 12 plank sizes. It made such a difference. It felt real. It was a bit crude, a bit carny, but still magical. you bought it right at ground level. It was Main Street with an edge. After all it had a Casino. Even the graphics were hand painted so they had that simplistic feel. Nothing was overly slick or sophisticated but still enameled. It wasn't seamless or genius, it was more than that. It was sincere. Summer at Knott's was probably like being in Venice Beach in 1925. It was so not Disney. That feeling is still up for grabs at DCA.

 

[HBG2]

Hey there Eddie. You know that people are going to haunt you and haunt you until you return and give your take on the new interactive queue at the HM. I've been posting my views all over that endless MChat thread dedicated to all things HM, as well as at DB.com. I just posted at the main thread HERE on this board dedicated to the new addition, so my take is not exactly a well-kept secret.

I am furious. With no exaggeration, I see this as the worst thing that has ever happened to any HM at any time in their histories. The world of the HM has always been a coherent whole, a convincing imaginary world that follows its own rules, like a good movie or book. But this abomination is riddled with things that are logically impossible within that world. Nothing like that has ever happened/been allowed before, and I'm fit to be tied.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Hey there Eddie. You know that people are going to haunt you and haunt you until you return and give your take on the new interactive queue at the HM. I've been posting my views all over that endless MChat thread dedicated to all things HM, as well as at DB.com. I just posted at the main thread HERE on this board dedicated to the new addition, so my take is not exactly a well-kept secret.

I am furious. With no exaggeration, I see this as the worst thing that has ever happened to any HM at any time in their histories. The world of the HM has always been a coherent whole, a convincing imaginary world that follows its own rules, like a good movie or book. But this abomination is riddled with things that are logically impossible within that world. Nothing like that has ever happened/been allowed before, and I'm fit to be tied.

Wow. So you see this as a relative "Jar Jar Binks" level disaster in HM history? I have not seen or been to the new queue so I'm not sure what to think just yet. I have read that it is related to some of the events or characters within the show and that some feel it takes liberties. I read your post on the other thread and understand that characters you experience (supposedly for the first and only time) in the ride are basically "prophesied" in a grave yard, which is a logic hole among other things. I hope I kinda got that right? If I may be so bold, I think the closest thing I have felt to something like this is when they started making the really silly Roger Moore Bond films, and it destroyed everything that was believable about Bond for me. It got cartoony and became a cliche of itself instead of building on the legacy and logic that made bond so great. To me, those dumb formula films shattered the whole world of Bond that I loved from Dr. No, Russia with Love, and Goldfinger. Daniel Craig kind of got some of that realism back. ("Secret Agent Man" with Patrick McGoohan is much better as he was supposed to play Bond).

I do believe that at some level you can find "logic holes" in any of these shows if you look hard enough. To me, no one consciously constructed them to be "bulletproof", and you have made an elegant science out of this attraction that makes us want to believe there is more there and that it is. Your blog is amazing. I'm not sure how deep WDI, the fans, or the guests are going in the logic, or if there is a movie or Wii title that this is foreshadowing, and if they are walking away from the past as they did on POTc with Mr. Depp. Don't know.

Anyway....All of us here on the thread respect your opinion and I'd like to hear more of your impressions if you don't mind.

At your request, I will look at the videos and check out what I can and weigh in soon. Meanwhile, what do the rest of you think of the new queue?

 

[HBG2]

Well, remember now, you pulled the cork out of this bottle...

The criticism of the new queue out there comes in three flavors: aesthetic objections (too cartoony, Toon-Townish, dopey, garish), objections based on show flow (big noisy ghost-fest before you even get in the door of the place, ruins the soft creepy build-up), and logical incongruity with the HM world (this is MY thing). I agree with almost all of the objections in the first two categories, but those squawks are being made by plenty of people, and the perpetrators can shrug a lot of it off as a matter of taste (however dishonestly). But the logical errors go right to the nub.

As I have said elsewhere, you can make a pretty water-tight case that your experience in the HM is supposed to be taken as something unique, something that hasn't happened before today. The ghosts who materialize at the HM have never done that before, at least not here. The old Caretaker is astonished at what he sees: he's never seen anything like this. The Ghost Host (in a bit of monologue that used to be used at DL), expresses a touch of uncertainty about whether Leota can fix the current problem ("Perhaps Madame Leota can establish contact..."), which would make little sense if they went through this every other night. And it's more Disney that way: You lucky person, you just happen to be here to witness a unique event, and maybe even help trigger it with your "sympathetic vibrations." Isn't that how Disney usually likes to do it? You round the corner just as the rhino has treed the safari, you get out of the burning town just as it's about to collapse or explode. What's the alternative? "Here are the ghosts having a party, just like they do every night, actually."

The logical contradictions introduced by this queue just go on and on. How is it that ghosts that have not never yet materialized at the Mansion (organ banshees) are commemorated in stone on old crypts? The graveyard band is made up of musicians from different times and places (18th c. bandsmen uniforms on some, medieval garb on others), they've gathered here to the HM, and now for the first time they've materialized. They've never played together before now, but the new queue crypt alludes to the band in carvings on the side depicting their instruments. Huh? How could that happen? And the instruments are realistic on one side of the crypt, and Museum-of-the-Weirdy on the other side. Er, why? And how did three hitchhikers (one of whom is a prisoner with ball-and-frickin'-chain) suddenly become family members and residents of this New England mansion, buried in the family plot? Why are the tombstones of Francis Xavier and Grandpa Marc displayed like signs, as if they had no bodies buried in front of them? How did all the singing busts become family members, buried in this same family plot? Why are there permanent busts out here in broad daylight in the style of interior mansion artwork only as that artwork will later be distorted by ghosts inside the mansion so as to disorient you once you're trapped inside? "Or is it your imagination?" is now a meaningless question, since we can see right here that such distortions are not imaginary. (I'm talking about the bust of the guy with the snake all over him, plainly in the style of George with the hatchet in his head at the bottom of the widow stretchroom portrait. I argue this particular point here.)

No doubt all of these questions would receive the same answer from the crew who produced this mess: You're not supposed to ask questions like that, that's taking it all too seriously and expecting too much. It's all just fun. These guys are either saying that no such unified, logical HM world ever existed, or if it does/did exist, who cares? No one pays any attention to that.

In truth, I have never found a serious logical inconsistency in the HM world (until now). The Imagineers produced a believable, internally consistent, imaginary world that follows its own rules amazingly well. You can put questions to practically any detail in there and get a simple, plausible explanation, just as if that world really existed, the same sort of thing you find with a good movie or a good book. I am continually amazed at how deep runs the internal logic of the HM world. This post over at the ol' blog will serve as well as any to prove the point.

Some will find it implausible on its face that the HM would exhibit anything like the unity I'm describing. Wasn't it a hodgepodge of conflicting concepts, silly, spooky, and scary, all cobbled together by X. Atencio in an overall script? Actually, it is probably this conflict of visions precisely that eventuated in the unusually good consistency of the HM universe. I argue that point here.

That's enough for now. I won't list the names of the guilty parties, but I look upon this queue as something close to criminal vandalism. The absolute worst moment in their 42 year history.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Well, remember now, you pulled the cork out of this bottle...

I'm glad I did, as you opened my bottle as well I think the topic of how details effect the "world" or logic of an attraction is a good discussion.

My guess is after watching the video, that most fans and guests will really love the queue with all it's bells and whistles and never have a thought as to the logic at all. It's fun! In fact, I would imagine that many hardcore fans will love the insider tributes to all the Imagineers that were part of the show and will see the incongruities as "foreshadowing" of things to come in the attraction. Ones Man's "Haunted Mansion" is another Man's funsy "Spook House".

Having said that, Herb Ryman told me a story about designing the bridge to Liberty Square. He said that it cost the same to do the one that was period correct that Revere would have crossed as it was to do something more generic and just ok. The point was that money aside, it's the effort and homework that makes it, guests do "sense" the history because nuance is everything. Put content into everything, it all means something as a greater whole. We as creatures are always sensing, comparing and absorbing, then forming opinions. Words to live by. Make it rich. Give it a soul.

A current client of mine was recently struck by the fact that even the tiniest detail we designed had a history or reason for being. I told him that it was because we wanted every guest to sense that someone had been there first, and that each piece mattered (so in turn you'd assume it all mattered). There is a seamless logic a mile deep that informs the surface. There is a profound pleasure in continuity.

That's why, despite how popular the queue may end up being, it by no means discounts your critique just because the masses don't consciously sense those deeper artistic flaws. Ryman stressed that Disney is about the details and good research. Disneyland is theater after all, but does have a logic held together by rich assuring details. It's those details, especially those that are hard to see or lie beneath the surface that make something truly great. Subtle details in technique, conceit and nuance make for fine art. Few projects get that treatment anymore. You saw the fine art in that show that most do not (I doubt the designers knew they were betraying it!). Yet it should have been consistent. So does the queue do what it set out to do, meaning use fun interactives to entertain the guests? I think that the reviews will say yes and very well. Could it have just as easily had the richness of expressing the story in a way that would draw attention to, perhaps even enhance the world it was designed to foreshadow? Yes it could have, (some will argue it does) but didn't in the logic as you see it. So it may succeed at entertaining most guests (and fans), but does not satisfy the "deeper driller" who wants to believe and expects the story to hold together. Guests sense the subtle things of breaking the continuity and pace even if they can't articulate the reason, so we'll see how time treats this addition and it's "remix" effect on the show.


Maybe they will add a tribute to you!!! You have earned legend status.

"Here lies HBG2
He lived for the Mansion,
but died in the Queue."

 

[lazyboy97o]

HBG2, I think you have some very well considers thoughts and I have had similar thoughts. The new queue does only work if you have previous experience. It is a postmodern construct built on self awareness and irreverence. That this addition occurred at Walt Disney World is something I find peculiar, as this is the place where so much emphasis is place on the first time and non-regular visitors.

I also think there is a general under appreciation for what I can only see as intentional thought behind the establishment of The Haunted Mansion queue. Unlike the other opening day rides, the switchbacks are located away from Mansion doors, where most would identify the beginning of the attraction. I cannot see how that would be an accident when the designers had carte blanche. It would also mean that the big step in queues being part of the story seen with the Pirates of the Caribbean addition has its start in the second Mansion.

I really think interactive queue elements, in order to be truly effective need to be properly spaced throughout a queue. At Space Mountain there is still significant space after the video games are passed, allowing the boredom to resurface and a sense of disappointment to build. The Haunted Mansion seems to be the opposite problem, being too close to the main event. By the time the elements are reached, you have done most your waiting, especially on very busy days when the queue does get quite long.

That all said, I do have high hopes for Peter Pan's Flight. The loading area concept of being in the Darling's Nursery can be expanded to the rest of the queue and what better place to find toys and playthings that the bedroom of three young and imaginative children? Peter's Shadow could also be apart of the interactivity. Imagine opening a drawing and watching Peter's Shadow get free, fly around nocking about other props until scared back by Nana's bark.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

HBG2, I think you have some very well considers thoughts and I have had similar thoughts. The new queue does only work if you have previous experience. It is a postmodern construct built on self awareness and irreverence. That this addition occurred at Walt Disney World is something I find peculiar, as this is the place where so much emphasis is place on the first time and non-regular visitors.

I also think there is a general under appreciation for what I can only see as intentional thought behind the establishment of The Haunted Mansion queue. Unlike the other opening day rides, the switchbacks are located away from Mansion doors, where most would identify the beginning of the attraction. I cannot see how that would be an accident when the designers had carte blanche. It would also mean that the big step in queues being part of the story seen with the Pirates of the Caribbean addition has its start in the second Mansion.

I really think interactive queue elements, in order to be truly effective need to be properly spaced throughout a queue. At Space Mountain there is still significant space after the video games are passed, allowing the boredom to resurface and a sense of disappointment to build. The Haunted Mansion seems to be the opposite problem, being too close to the main event. By the time the elements are reached, you have done most your waiting, especially on very busy days when the queue does get quite long.

That all said, I do have high hopes for Peter Pan's Flight. The loading area concept of being in the Darling's Nursery can be expanded to the rest of the queue and what better place to find toys and playthings that the bedroom of three young and imaginative children? Peter's Shadow could also be apart of the interactivity. Imagine opening a drawing and watching Peter's Shadow get free, fly around nocking about other props until scared back by Nana's bark.

I think you are right about the placement of these elements in the greater queue and as respects the attraction entrance.

 

[imagineer boy]

Well, remember now, you pulled the cork out of this bottle...

The criticism of the new queue out there comes in three flavors: aesthetic objections (too cartoony, Toon-Townish, dopey, garish), objections based on show flow (big noisy ghost-fest before you even get in the door of the place, ruins the soft creepy build-up), and logical incongruity with the HM world (this is MY thing). I agree with almost all of the objections in the first two categories, but those squawks are being made by plenty of people, and the perpetrators can shrug a lot of it off as a matter of taste (however dishonestly). But the logical errors go right to the nub.

As I have said elsewhere, you can make a pretty water-tight case that your experience in the HM is supposed to be taken as something unique, something that hasn't happened before today. The ghosts who materialize at the HM have never done that before, at least not here. The old Caretaker is astonished at what he sees: he's never seen anything like this. The Ghost Host (in a bit of monologue that used to be used at DL), expresses a touch of uncertainty about whether Leota can fix the current problem ("Perhaps Madame Leota can establish contact..."), which would make little sense if they went through this every other night. And it's more Disney that way: You lucky person, you just happen to be here to witness a unique event, and maybe even help trigger it with your "sympathetic vibrations." Isn't that how Disney usually likes to do it? You round the corner just as the rhino has treed the safari, you get out of the burning town just as it's about to collapse or explode. What's the alternative? "Here are the ghosts having a party, just like they do every night, actually."

The logical contradictions introduced by this queue just go on and on. How is it that ghosts that have not never yet materialized at the Mansion (organ banshees) are commemorated in stone on old crypts? The graveyard band is made up of musicians from different times and places (18th c. bandsmen uniforms on some, medieval garb on others), they've gathered here to the HM, and now for the first time they've materialized. They've never played together before now, but the new queue crypt alludes to the band in carvings on the side depicting their instruments. Huh? How could that happen? And the instruments are realistic on one side of the crypt, and Museum-of-the-Weirdy on the other side. Er, why? And how did three hitchhikers (one of whom is a prisoner with ball-and-frickin'-chain) suddenly become family members and residents of this New England mansion, buried in the family plot? Why are the tombstones of Francis Xavier and Grandpa Marc displayed like signs, as if they had no bodies buried in front of them? How did all the singing busts become family members, buried in this same family plot? Why are there permanent busts out here in broad daylight in the style of interior mansion artwork only as that artwork will later be distorted by ghosts inside the mansion so as to disorient you once you're trapped inside? "Or is it your imagination?" is now a meaningless question, since we can see right here that such distortions are not imaginary. (I'm talking about the bust of the guy with the snake all over him, plainly in the style of George with the hatchet in his head at the bottom of the widow stretchroom portrait. I argue this particular point here.)

No doubt all of these questions would receive the same answer from the crew who produced this mess: You're not supposed to ask questions like that, that's taking it all too seriously and expecting too much. It's all just fun. These guys are either saying that no such unified, logical HM world ever existed, or if it does/did exist, who cares? No one pays any attention to that.

In truth, I have never found a serious logical inconsistency in the HM world (until now). The Imagineers produced a believable, internally consistent, imaginary world that follows its own rules amazingly well. You can put questions to practically any detail in there and get a simple, plausible explanation, just as if that world really existed, the same sort of thing you find with a good movie or a good book. I am continually amazed at how deep runs the internal logic of the HM world. This post over at the ol' blog will serve as well as any to prove the point.

Some will find it implausible on its face that the HM would exhibit anything like the unity I'm describing. Wasn't it a hodgepodge of conflicting concepts, silly, spooky, and scary, all cobbled together by X. Atencio in an overall script? Actually, it is probably this conflict of visions precisely that eventuated in the unusually good consistency of the HM universe. I argue that point here.

That's enough for now. I won't list the names of the guilty parties, but I look upon this queue as something close to criminal vandalism. The absolute worst moment in their 42 year history.

Well said! I think this is the best in depth critical analysis of the new HM queue. You hit everything on the head.

 

[HBG2]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. When you're steaming mad, it's good to have somewhere to vent.

Eddie, you hit on a couple of things that I think are very important. One is this notion that the average Joe doesn't notice this or that. I think (and I think you do too) that the average Joe is most likely a human being, which means that he senses far more than he knows he senses consciously. When a book or movie really does its homework and sticks to its own rules, a vague but real sense of credibility, of depth, comes across even to the casual viewer or reader at some sub/unconscious level. He couldn't tell you why, but this thing just "feels real." People in general are "deeper drillers" than some Imagineers think, they just don't know they are.

If you want proof that the HM is unusually (I think uniquely) deep and coherent for a theme park ride, just look at the level of passionate devotion it has inspired, including reams of fanfic and even a line of comics. Much of the latter is nutty and juvenile, but the very fact that people invest that kind of mental energy populating the HM world with stories and backstories shows that this world feels real to them, as if it really existed.

The other is the funsy argument. It has always been possible to enjoy this attraction at a superficial, fun amusement park ride level. Some yuks, some chills maybe. Lotta fun. Next? And that's okay by me. Nothing wrong with that. I don't look down on that approach. The problem is, the other approach, the one where you find your imagination stimulated, so that you may start wondering and asking questions, the one where you may in the end start appreciating it as a work of art—that one has been rudely shut down. In my view, now everyone is forced to go with the first approach at WDW, since the other has been shattered. If I wanted to give WDW HM the "Long-Forgotten" treatment, or even "Long-Forgotten lite," I would have to pretend that a major WDI addition to the ride does not exist, which I personally can't do.

If they do this to Anaheim, then the HM is yesterlanded for me.

 

[RSoxNo1]

HBG2 - do you have an issue with the Madame Leota Tombstone?

My interpretation of the Mansion hasn't really been driven by the individual characters of it, but by the evolution of your ability to see the spirits as you get deeper in the Mansion.

To me, the greatest opposition I would have to the queue is the acceleration of this. Keep in mind, I say this without seeing the queue in person. To me, the exterior elements should be stationary. We should see that people have passed away, but we shouldn't get a feeling that the ghosts are there yet.

It isn't until we get into the foyer that we start to sense some things are "a bit off" as the image is changing. The same can be said through the stretch room up until the seance room. We sense ghosts around us, things are amiss, but we still haven't seen a ghost yet.

After the seance room we see the ghosts and the other eerie effects that verify we are definitely not alone. After we're pushed out of the attic (or we fall out, or whatever storyline you want to believe), we are now deceased and can see all of the ghosts more clearly. To them it's cause for celebration because we've joined them.

To me, this is the part of your post that I'm really focusing on:

The logical contradictions introduced by this queue just go on and on. How is it that ghosts that have not never yet materialized at the Mansion (organ banshees) are commemorated in stone on old crypts? The graveyard band is made up of musicians from different times and places (18th c. bandsmen uniforms on some, medieval garb on others), they've gathered here to the HM, and now for the first time they've materialized. They've never played together before now, but the new queue crypt alludes to the band in carvings on the side depicting their instruments. Huh? How could that happen? And the instruments are realistic on one side of the crypt, and Museum-of-the-Weirdy on the other side.

To me, the fact that ghosts in the mansion are commemorated outside isn't a point of contention. While their earthly bodies are outside of the mansion in the gravestones, their souls/ghosts/whatever can appear within the mansion itself. To me that's not an issue at all.

As for the band being grouped together in the same crypt - that's a perfectly reasonable question. I never thought of the band as anything but a cohesive group. I had never noticed the differences in uniforms before, but if you're right - that's definitely a legitimate complaint. However, it's one that can easily be fixed by changing the costumes of the band members in the graveyard.

 

[HMF]

As upset as I am about the new HM Queue. The updated POTC still is the worst logic bomb ever done by WDI. "Where be Captain Jack Sparrow? I don't care about the treasure" Unlike the new queue though that can be easily fixed.

 

[HBG2]

I don't have an issue with the Leota tombstone, so long as it functions as it was designed to function. Everything is supposed to be quiet and ordinary up to that point, an eerie house with an eerie graveyard next to it, but nothing supernatural. Then you catch something out of the corner of your eye, and wonder if you just imagined it. Now you're uncertain whether your forebodings are childish or well-grounded.

I've heard CM's testify to the Leota stone doing exactly what it's supposed to do. "Mommy, that face moved! I saw it!" "Shhh, don't be silly. Look at it. See? It's not moving. You imagined it."

By the way, think how utterly this has been destroyed by the new queue. After the whack-a-mole bookcase, everybody has seen blatant ghostly movements already, so whoop-de-doo if the Leota stone fidgits a bit.

Leota is a special ghost. She's the only one who has successfully "crossed over" already, before you even go in, and as you will discover, she's now available to help all the others do so as well. Makes sense: it was her day job while she was alive, and she knows the right spells. So the notion that Leota's spirit is already free to mess around a little is perfectly logical.

 

[WDWGoof07]

Well, remember now, you pulled the cork out of this bottle...

The criticism of the new queue out there comes in three flavors: aesthetic objections (too cartoony, Toon-Townish, dopey, garish), objections based on show flow (big noisy ghost-fest before you even get in the door of the place, ruins the soft creepy build-up), and logical incongruity with the HM world (this is MY thing). I agree with almost all of the objections in the first two categories, but those squawks are being made by plenty of people, and the perpetrators can shrug a lot of it off as a matter of taste (however dishonestly). But the logical errors go right to the nub.

As I have said elsewhere, you can make a pretty water-tight case that your experience in the HM is supposed to be taken as something unique, something that hasn't happened before today. The ghosts who materialize at the HM have never done that before, at least not here. The old Caretaker is astonished at what he sees: he's never seen anything like this. The Ghost Host (in a bit of monologue that used to be used at DL), expresses a touch of uncertainty about whether Leota can fix the current problem ("Perhaps Madame Leota can establish contact..."), which would make little sense if they went through this every other night. And it's more Disney that way: You lucky person, you just happen to be here to witness a unique event, and maybe even help trigger it with your "sympathetic vibrations." Isn't that how Disney usually likes to do it? You round the corner just as the rhino has treed the safari, you get out of the burning town just as it's about to collapse or explode. What's the alternative? "Here are the ghosts having a party, just like they do every night, actually."

The logical contradictions introduced by this queue just go on and on. How is it that ghosts that have not never yet materialized at the Mansion (organ banshees) are commemorated in stone on old crypts? The graveyard band is made up of musicians from different times and places (18th c. bandsmen uniforms on some, medieval garb on others), they've gathered here to the HM, and now for the first time they've materialized. They've never played together before now, but the new queue crypt alludes to the band in carvings on the side depicting their instruments. Huh? How could that happen? And the instruments are realistic on one side of the crypt, and Museum-of-the-Weirdy on the other side. Er, why? And how did three hitchhikers (one of whom is a prisoner with ball-and-frickin'-chain) suddenly become family members and residents of this New England mansion, buried in the family plot? Why are the tombstones of Francis Xavier and Grandpa Marc displayed like signs, as if they had no bodies buried in front of them? How did all the singing busts become family members, buried in this same family plot? Why are there permanent busts out here in broad daylight in the style of interior mansion artwork only as that artwork will later be distorted by ghosts inside the mansion so as to disorient you once you're trapped inside? "Or is it your imagination?" is now a meaningless question, since we can see right here that such distortions are not imaginary. (I'm talking about the bust of the guy with the snake all over him, plainly in the style of George with the hatchet in his head at the bottom of the widow stretchroom portrait. I argue this particular point here.)

No doubt all of these questions would receive the same answer from the crew who produced this mess: You're not supposed to ask questions like that, that's taking it all too seriously and expecting too much. It's all just fun. These guys are either saying that no such unified, logical HM world ever existed, or if it does/did exist, who cares? No one pays any attention to that.

In truth, I have never found a serious logical inconsistency in the HM world (until now). The Imagineers produced a believable, internally consistent, imaginary world that follows its own rules amazingly well. You can put questions to practically any detail in there and get a simple, plausible explanation, just as if that world really existed, the same sort of thing you find with a good movie or a good book. I am continually amazed at how deep runs the internal logic of the HM world. This post over at the ol' blog will serve as well as any to prove the point.

Some will find it implausible on its face that the HM would exhibit anything like the unity I'm describing. Wasn't it a hodgepodge of conflicting concepts, silly, spooky, and scary, all cobbled together by X. Atencio in an overall script? Actually, it is probably this conflict of visions precisely that eventuated in the unusually good consistency of the HM universe. I argue that point here.

That's enough for now. I won't list the names of the guilty parties, but I look upon this queue as something close to criminal vandalism. The absolute worst moment in their 42 year history.

You make a good analysis in your post and on the blog. Fascinating stuff.

I believe that the interactive queue works for the same reasons you think it doesn't. Why should the ghostly distortions be limited to the inside of the mansion? I think what you now see in the queue are the same type of ghostly tricks in the Stretching Room paintings that you reference in the link I bolded. What you see in the queue could also be the result of ghostly manipulation. Why should the new crypts be taken literally, but the Stretching Room portraits should not? In keeping with the mythology of the attraction, the ghosts have not materialized at this point in our experience, and the fact that they won't materialize until the seance is performed and the sympathetic vibrations received is still intact. Is it necessary to witness the metamorphosis to communicate the ghostly deception? I don't think so. The new queue, in my opinion, actually adds another layer to the experience that was already there. The guest happens upon this bizarre graveyard where, unbeknownst to him, the metamorphosis has already occurred. He feels, but can't quite place, the presence of the otherworldly. It's so surreal - am I imagining this? Once inside, the guest for the first time witnesses the disquieting metamorphosis, but you still wonder whether your mind is playing tricks on you, which is compounded by the Ghost Host's eerie question: "Is this haunted room actually stretching, or is it your imagination?"

Granted, this illusion is slightly breached by the poetess that talks to you. If they had kept her silent and given a more tangible payoff (e.g. a wind gust) for finishing the poem, it would be more effective. The constant playing of the instruments is less destructive of the illusion, but putting these effects on a delay timer like the ceiling drop in the Indiana Jones Adventure might be a good improvement.

Overall, I believe this is a great plussing to the Haunted Mansion. That's just my humble opinion, and I'm eager to hear more of what you (and Eddie too!) have to say about it.

 

[flavious27]

I think the "Micktorian" aesthetic is becoming a little cliche and overused, aside from just confusing a lot of people about Paradise Pier. Its clear they were trying to do the layering you have discussed in the past, to show the place has a history, but I think they did a little too much leaning towards Victorian, which I think is / is becoming Disney's safe architectural style. Maybe whenever the shops and other original elements get their retheming this will be adjusted.

Cannot say I am very familiar with the Roaring 20s section of Knott's Berry Farm. Apart from being before my time, my family deprived me of experiencing the park, which would have been right at the end of the Knott family's ownership. I really need to get my hands on a copy of Knott's Preserved.

It makes sense that a boardwalk would be themed with a victorian and or early 21th century architecture theme, these are the styles that people positively associate with boardwalks.

Though I do agree that disney should not go overboard with the theme, especially when it is not needed. Some have mentioned that if the TTC gets rebuild, that it should have the same look as HKDL's train station. I do not think it would fit in well to have the TTC themed as an extension of main street. If there is a ttc retheme, it should have a fresh contemporary look.