Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks

[Eddie Sotto]

Progress City, the Real EPCOT

So much discussion has centered around building Walt's last great dream and if so what would it be? This 2 part series tells the story of "Progress City" (or the real EPCOT) as an urban plan and speculates as to if it would have ever worked. Very interesting and pretty heady at places. Both parts are now available to read. Recommended.

http://micechat.com/forums/blogs/samland/1771-walt-disneys-epcot-heart-our-cities.html

 

[ChrisFL]

So much discussion has centered around building Walt's last great dream and if so what would it be? This 2 part series tells the story of "Progress City" (or the real EPCOT) as an urban plan and speculates as to if it would have ever worked. Very interesting and pretty heady at places. Both parts are now available to read. Recommended.

http://micechat.com/forums/blogs/samland/1771-walt-disneys-epcot-heart-our-cities.html

I read this earlier today, and I agree, it's a great look at the project and how the idea came about.

Eddie, do you ever think enough of like-minded people would come together and resurrect the project or come up with a modernized plan for it?

I know there's other city plans happening like Masdar, but the structure and planning is much different

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I read this earlier today, and I agree, it's a great look at the project and how the idea came about.

Eddie, do you ever think enough of like-minded people would come together and resurrect the project or come up with a modernized plan for it?

I know there's other city plans happening like Masdar, but the structure and planning is much different

Not really. Not in the present system. I think it's best as a resort or timeshare type arrangement with elements that are good examples of better living. To me, the biggest problem mankind has is not so much the perfect city plan, but the ability to peaceably govern himself within it.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Intuitive Design.

Check out this video of 2 yr old tots mastering the iPad. Intuitive design at work.

http://www.cultofmac.com/

 

[ChrisFL]

Not really. Not in the present system. I think it's best as a resort or timeshare type arrangement with elements that are good examples of better living. To me, the biggest problem mankind has is not so much the perfect city plan, but the ability to peaceably govern himself within it.

I can see that point.

While there's always been varying opinions about whether EPCOT would have worked as a city, I think the main problem is keeping the squeaky clean Disney image when there's inevitable crime, emergencies, etc that go along with city life.

Without that burden of keeping the Disney image I think there is possibility of it working.

The main question is how would a place like that measure success vs. an "average" city?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I can see that point.

While there's always been varying opinions about whether EPCOT would have worked as a city, I think the main problem is keeping the squeaky clean Disney image when there's inevitable crime, emergencies, etc that go along with city life.

Without that burden of keeping the Disney image I think there is possibility of it working.

The main question is how would a place like that measure success vs. an "average" city?

Not sure till you build one. That's why I think that you build a destination that has the characteristics of a town or city, but while being a resort, showcases lots of ideas to be adopted elsewhere. Does that make any sense at all? The residents cycle in and out and do not have rights as citizens do. Homeowners associations are a bit like that.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Little Mermaid exterior design.

Your thoughts on this? It is a bit of a departure from the usual packaging of a dark ride.

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/151209-your-opinion-little-mermaid-exterior.html

 

[Orangelake555]

I agree with the one poster, it looks like a barnes and noble right now:shrug:

 

[darthspielberg]

I find it very classy, yet instilled with that seaside boardwalk feel they were going for. Not sure I'd want a similar building in WDW (I love the idea of Eric's Castle as the facade in MK) but it's a stunning design none the less. The reliefs of Triton's other daughters are great.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I agree with the one poster, it looks like a barnes and noble right now:shrug:

If you look at the posted renderings, it is clearly not finished yet. So this is speculation and a bit early to being a judge of anything. but you can react to the basic forms and approach.

Yet two things stood out to me. Firstly, as pretty as it is with that powerful arch and bas relief, it raises kind of a huge expectation for a dark ride to deliver on. I get that they are doing a kind of "Coney Island meets Santa Cruz Boardwalk" kind of style and that's awesome, but maybe it could have been richer in detail at the ground level and secondly, it could have been more human scale. Buildings of that time were not constructed expensively, but looked so. They were plaster artifice and wood. Again I'm waiting till they finish it with all the bells and whistles, as that's likely what they will do.

I think the Barnes and Noble and "mall" analogies are coming from mega scale and the exterior finish (blown stucco?) that is the same as most big box malls. The trim looks "planted on" with little depth. Textures are very important as they set the tone for the building. Budgets usually attack them first as they seem insignificant, but they're not. Maybe there is another layer or surface they have yet to add that is more period and rich looking? The colors are likely just a base coat to age over so ignore that. There are no graphics and props yet either. The hard part is that it's costly to build a "period" building out of modern materials, as when it gets to be a certain scale, the materials themselves take over the impression and flavor. This to me is the failing of the Swan and Dolphin. The "close up" falls apart as the materials are intrinsically cheap stucco, so it does not pay off the anticipation.

That was a big John Hench thing. The close up paying off your first impression from a distance. It keeps you believing.



Having said all that, it's probably the best architecture for a show building at DCA and they're not even done, but it's fun to discuss what makes a building appealing.

According to the votes on the micechat thread, it's a mega hit already.

 

[AEfx]

Having said all that, it's probably the best architecture for a show building at DCA and they're not even done, but it's fun to discuss what makes a building appealing.

Do I have to be the first one to make the "doesn't take much" comment.

Jokes aside, I don't find it objectionable - just not entirely appropriate. But, then again, so is DCA. I'm not one of the generic "oh I preferred the parking lot" folks when it comes to DCA (in fact, my first visit was last year), but that park is simply a mish-mash, very little really fits to begin with. Each attraction seems shoe-horned in, and this fits right in to that.

I'm very glad we are getting our version. Seeing an iconic visage from the film from afar brings much more anticipation than (no matter how they finish it) a plain-ish re-purposed building.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think the problem with going for a 1920s theme is that it is the beginning of what eventually becomes today's hyper-pluralism in architecture. I do not think there is a very prominent cultural image of an early 20th century aquarium / upscale seaside pavilion to play upon and not enough people old enough to have memories upon which to build a cultural image. I think this is part of the bigger problem with Paradise Pier, the nostalgia for seaside boardwalks is just not that widespread. i think people saying that it reminds them of Neptune's Kingdom at the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk is a positive.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I think the problem with going for a 1920s theme is that it is the beginning of what eventually becomes today's hyper-pluralism in architecture. I do not think there is a very prominent cultural image of an early 20th century aquarium / upscale seaside pavilion to play upon and not enough people old enough to have memories upon which to build a cultural image. I think this is part of the bigger problem with Paradise Pier, the nostalgia for seaside boardwalks is just not that widespread. i think people saying that it reminds them of Neptune's Kingdom at the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk is a positive.

I agree with you. It's not a familiar reference to most people, and the modern interpretation (use of materials) does not reinforce the period. It should be intrinsically attractive regardless and that's what most fans are into. When I was a kid I had no reference to New Orleans but it was so well done, I loved how I felt in it, and studied the design. It inspired me to look further. Seaside piers, if they have energy and a richness can do the same thing. Done well, they are magical places. If they just look like more Main Street then so what. The original PP was the blown stucco boxes thinly overlaid with graphics and it did not hold up when you sensed it up close or paused within it. I too like the SCBW connection or any Amusement Pier. I would have rather seen PP go more 1920's and less victorian to make it wholly unique. The early character graphics kind of do that. The Roaring 20's area of Knott's was well done in it's day and was a hit, but was more reliant on wood and period construction methods that gave it sincerity and charm. It's use of neon was extensive and that set it apart too. Maybe that's more of where I'm coming from on this, is that the execution is grand, but not as charming and personal like you would expect from the other PP facades they recently redid. We'll see what it looks like when they wrap it up. In any case, the Seaside Pier idea seems a good one.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Do I have to be the first one to make the "doesn't take much" comment.

Jokes aside, I don't find it objectionable - just not entirely appropriate. But, then again, so is DCA. I'm not one of the generic "oh I preferred the parking lot" folks when it comes to DCA (in fact, my first visit was last year), but that park is simply a mish-mash, very little really fits to begin with. Each attraction seems shoe-horned in, and this fits right in to that.

I'm very glad we are getting our version. Seeing an iconic visage from the film from afar brings much more anticipation than (no matter how they finish it) a plain-ish re-purposed building.

I think that is why I posted this, not so much to critique an unfinished building, but to discuss an entirely different direction in dealing with the presentation of a dark ride, which is to say just call it "a big giant dark ride" and package it that way. You are going to be in a building, versus an escape to another world. Once you are on the ride, you'll forget that aspect. The theme is to say it's a "carnival midway show" as was done then. When you think about it, the way the dark rides are presented in Fantasyland with the big mural and the cars going in each end, are right out of the "Haunted Castle" dark ride format of the old amusement parks for sure. The mural was the marquee for the ride on the side of the trailer. WDW gets the "you are there" fantasy treatment with the Castle, which is also fitting for that land. I thought this format stuff was worth discussing, but the Barnes and Noble comments got me off on how color and textures spin the design. All interesting.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I find it very classy, yet instilled with that seaside boardwalk feel they were going for. Not sure I'd want a similar building in WDW (I love the idea of Eric's Castle as the facade in MK) but it's a stunning design none the less. The reliefs of Triton's other daughters are great.

I don't see "classy" as much as see "grand" or "monolithic". More of a Pavilion than a single show. I agree that this is a good DCA option as it fits their existing Boardwalk theme. The funny thing is that there is always the meeting where you decide how much money goes into the building and how much is in the actual show. So if you perfect the facade too much you end up taking away from the thing they wait to see. You always have to err on the side of a better show. They will forgive you for a basic facade if the show inside is awesome.

 

[Daannzzz]

If you look at the old amusement park photos of similar buildings the giant arch always frightened me. It look like a big mouth and while the details on the buildings may have been intricate and grand looking that huge mouth always seemed frightening to me. The Little Mermaid building has toned that down and made it friendlier looking and in the process has made it a bit bland. I think it is trying to cross two styles. The old amusement park and the worlds fair building.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

The last time I saw TLM building was Fall 2010, so I can only judge by the photos. Seems to me the monolithic size and style is to anchor that side of the Pier- but also to make the statement that DCA finally has an AA filled attraction!

In fact, maybe the decision to make it look like it does was for communicating that area is no longer part of the Golden State. Regardless, I agree with one poster I've read who has said Disneyland doesn't have a building that matches the grandness of TLM. But then, DL is very charming and understated whereas DCA has traditionally gone for more of an in your face feel.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

If you look at the old amusement park photos of similar buildings the giant arch always frightened me. It look like a big mouth and while the details on the buildings may have been intricate and grand looking that huge mouth always seemed frightening to me. The Little Mermaid building has toned that down and made it friendlier looking and in the process has made it a bit bland. I think it is trying to cross two styles. The old amusement park and the worlds fair building.

Here's the arched entry to the re-enactment of the "Johnstown Flood" at Coney Island. Much simpler. This reminds me of how the dark rides were framed up at DL's original Fantasyland.

http://www.westland.net/coneyisland/mapsdocs/con06-map20.htm

 

[Daannzzz]

That one is a bit less severe. I can see the similarity to the Fantasyland attractions. I would love to have seen how the "recreated" the flood. Some of the descriptions of the old dark rides sound very impressive. I don't know how well they were able to pull them off.

 

[tirian]

...maybe it could have been richer in detail at the ground level and secondly, it could have been more human scale.

...

I think the Barnes and Noble and "mall" analogies are coming from mega scale and the exterior finish (blown stucco?) that is the same as most big box malls. The trim looks "planted on" with little depth.

Eddie, this is exactly what my first impression was; as it is now, the structure seems to clash with the architecture one expects from a Disney theme park. It's too big, too lifesized, too much like a big box store. Maybe this will be fixed in the future, but if they intend to simply plant small trees and shrubs around it, it will look even more like it belongs in a parking lot.

Incidentally, this is the same issue I have with Universal theme parks. I know much of their staff is former WDI, yet Uni structures seem to be visually off from the "architecture of reassurance" John Hench and Co. perfected. They're a little too big for the intimate scale of a theme park; and when a realistic building sits among others utilizing forced perspective, the effect is even more jarring.

I noticed you mentioned "pavilions," which made me think about Epcot's superstructures. IMO, the massive Epcot pavilions only work because all of Future World follows that aesthetic, and each building is surrounded by expansive landscaping.