Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)

[Eddie Sotto]

If I may, two quick remarks that touch on the subjects you bring up above:

1 I spend twice as much time in Paris' Main Street as I do in Orlando's. So much to see and read and soak up there. (Maybe it is the European in me, I think I've read somewhere we tend to spend time slightly differently at Disney Parks)


2 I would pay double the admission price if the MK would bring back a Main Street with a Centre Street West with flower market, with the Cinema, a Penny arcade and unique shops. And antiques in Liberty Square. And great shopping in Adventureland.
That is, I would indeed subsidise shops and immersive experiences with a higher general admission.

I don't need a new coaster. They've got better ones at Universal anyway. What I want is to be treated like an adult, and an educated one at that. I don't really do 'latest blockbuster / quick thrill / buy the shirt'. I want an immersive experience, without cartoons or celebrities.
I nowadays leave Disney with money burning in my pocket. This summer, I went to WDW for two weeks, then afterwards added in a quick trip to Paris (the city, not the theme park) just because I wanted to get rid of my holiday spending money. Not because I had so much to spare to begin with, but because Disney didn't know how to take my money. :shrug:

I envy your problems. Given the exchange rate in recent years, Paris is a great place to quiche your cash away. To me, that town is a theme park in of itself and the taxis are the thrill rides. Good call. But seriously, I don't think WDW does enough to serve the more mature (boomer) audience that brings their kids. I'm with you. I'd rather have a great shopping experience that really is rich and beyond souvenirs than another thrill ride. the ride dumping into the "I survived" gift shop has become a cliche of itself as well. How many times can you wait to just do that in a day? How many images can you have of your family drenched in a Log or falling in an Elevator? I think we all expect that and more now. As i age, I am less interested in the 3 minute thrill and more in the environment that makes me feel so good. I want to be immersed in whatever land they are offering me as DEEP as possible and I expect the stores to reinforce that. i remember when Disneyland had Pendleton wool in Frontierland and Stetson Hats. It gave the land credibility. Even if you don't buy anything, it satisfies. There was a rifle collection in there too. MSUSA Paris is all about the immersion and doing things in the shops to suspend the spell. It was a living museum and had the retail as the outgrowth of that.

The impact of giving more guests a richer retail experience makes up for the negatives of overcrowding, as being in a store could be just as fun if it were the right store. Good Museums are "window shopping" too, only the objects of desire are not for sale.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Not sure if you've ever been, but this is also part of the charm of breakfast at Carnation Cafe in DL.

And just an FYI, there is currently NO OPTION for a sit down, non-character breakfast at the MK, and no option for a hot quick serve breakfast either. Searching for breakfast a while back, a manager told me I could get a muffin from the Lunching Pad in Tomorrowland -- and they were being kept in the pretzel case. Not appetizing at all.

Outdoor cafes "work" and are abundant in Europe as the streets are pretty and the people watching interesting. How much so is a Disney park? Character breakfasts can be fun, but the ones I have been to have at least one toddler that's screaming it's head off because an 8 foot leering Chipmunk scares them to death.

 

[WDW1974]

Just a comment on merchandise. While I feel it has really gone down the tubes world-wide (I was sad beyond belief that I could barely find a thing to buy when I finally made it to TDR last year), I actually think WDW is doing better in some respects.

DAK and EPCOT especially really have nice themed NON-DISNEY BRANDED stuff (usually at far better prices than a generic Grumpy tee). And even the resorts are starting to go back to it. BW has had none (no, DVC generic doesn't count), but in the midst of friends' visit last week they started selling a new line of BW-specific items. I hope that's a start after they basically stopped selling it at all but 5-6 resorts (Poly, WL and DAK Lodge never lost it ... but BC, All Stars, Saratoga etc all did).

I still wish merchandise was part of the show again. Disney has largely ruined a big piece of the themed/immersive puzzle when you buy Captain Jack crap at EPCOT, Jack Skellington at the shop where you exit Space Mountain and pins/plush/Duffy/vinyl just about anywhere.

~GFC~

 

[RSoxNo1]

Just a comment on merchandise. While I feel it has really gone down the tubes world-wide (I was sad beyond belief that I could barely find a thing to buy when I finally made it to TDR last year), I actually think WDW is doing better in some respects.

DAK and EPCOT especially really have nice themed NON-DISNEY BRANDED stuff (usually at far better prices than a generic Grumpy tee). And even the resorts are starting to go back to it. BW has had none (no, DVC generic doesn't count), but in the midst of friends' visit last week they started selling a new line of BW-specific items. I hope that's a start after they basically stopped selling it at all but 5-6 resorts (Poly, WL and DAK Lodge never lost it ... but BC, All Stars, Saratoga etc all did).

I still wish merchandise was part of the show again. Disney has largely ruined a big piece of the themed/immersive puzzle when you buy Captain Jack crap at EPCOT, Jack Skellington at the shop where you exit Space Mountain and pins/plush/Duffy/vinyl just about anywhere.

~GFC~

We had this discussion in the past, but my biggest beef with the clothing at Disney World is subtlety. Many of us on here are young adult males, and like it or not, there aren't positive associations with the Disney name amongst our age group.

I probably have 10 Disney t-shirts and I don't think a single one is easily identifiable as a Disney shirt. I'm wearing a Kilimanjaro Safaris shirt as I write this, and unless people know what Kilimanjaro Safaris is, they're not gonna know what this shirt represents - and if they do know what it is I'm likely to strike up an enjoyable conversation with them.

Beyond clothing, I don't get vinylmation but for fear of sounding like an old man I'll just assess it as "not for me". I have a handful of pins but they're more a function of things that I would purchase if they were on another medium: classic EPCOT logos and Fastpasses. If Disney were to put this on something else that can either be displayed or serve a functional purpose I would probably purchase them as well.

Lastly, I'm still waiting for candles or car air fresheners to be sold outside of Soarin'.

 

[ChrisFL]

We had this discussion in the past, but my biggest beef with the clothing at Disney World is subtlety. Many of us on here are young adult males, and like it or not, there aren't positive associations with the Disney name amongst our age group.

I probably have 10 Disney t-shirts and I don't think a single one is easily identifiable as a Disney shirt. I'm wearing a Kilimanjaro Safaris shirt as I write this, and unless people know what Kilimanjaro Safaris is, they're not gonna know what this shirt represents - and if they do know what it is I'm likely to strike up an enjoyable conversation with them.

Beyond clothing, I don't get vinylmation but for fear of sounding like an old man I'll just assess it as "not for me". I have a handful of pins but they're more a function of things that I would purchase if they were on another medium: classic EPCOT logos and Fastpasses. If Disney were to put this on something else that can either be displayed or serve a functional purpose I would probably purchase them as well.

Agreed with all of this

 

[TinkerBell9988]

We had this discussion in the past, but my biggest beef with the clothing at Disney World is subtlety. Many of us on here are young adult males, and like it or not, there aren't positive associations with the Disney name amongst our age group.

I probably have 10 Disney t-shirts and I don't think a single one is easily identifiable as a Disney shirt. I'm wearing a Kilimanjaro Safaris shirt as I write this, and unless people know what Kilimanjaro Safaris is, they're not gonna know what this shirt represents - and if they do know what it is I'm likely to strike up an enjoyable conversation with them.

Beyond clothing, I don't get vinylmation but for fear of sounding like an old man I'll just assess it as "not for me". I have a handful of pins but they're more a function of things that I would purchase if they were on another medium: classic EPCOT logos and Fastpasses. If Disney were to put this on something else that can either be displayed or serve a functional purpose I would probably purchase them as well.

Lastly, I'm still waiting for candles or car air fresheners to be sold outside of Soarin'.

I totally agree with you, and I am a young adult female. I collect EPCOT Center shirts (either vintage or nuVintage, like the ones at MouseGear now). I also buy retro-like shirts, such as the Mary Blair it's a small world anniversary shirt and other kinds of shirts with old logos on them. Like you said, they are so subtle that only a handful of people would know what they are about. Like my JII shirt from Mickey's of Glendale. It is a plain black shirt with the JII original logo on the chest and the EPCOT Center flower logo on the back.

And what is so funny about that shirt is that every time I wear it, I get compliments from Disney fans and regular tourists. :shrug: I guess it's just a really nice shirt.

I'm totally with you guys on this whole merchandise thing. I'd love for it to go back to what it used to be when I was a little girl in a blue metal rental stroller.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Great observation. The whole "off the nose" take on merchandise is very important. I don't wear Disney logo merchandise either and like "inside" stuff better.

 

[yankspy]

Not sure if you've ever been, but this is also part of the charm of breakfast at Carnation Cafe in DL.

And just an FYI, there is currently NO OPTION for a sit down, non-character breakfast at the MK, and no option for a hot quick serve breakfast either. Searching for breakfast a while back, a manager told me I could get a muffin from the Lunching Pad in Tomorrowland -- and they were being kept in the pretzel case. Not appetizing at all.

I have not been to DL in a long time. Looking at pictures of the place I can imagine that it is very similar. As far as MK dining goes, it is the worst park for dining. It is a good thing that Kona and the GF Cafe are so close. We generally go there on MK days.

Just a comment on merchandise. While I feel it has really gone down the tubes world-wide (I was sad beyond belief that I could barely find a thing to buy when I finally made it to TDR last year), I actually think WDW is doing better in some respects.

DAK and EPCOT especially really have nice themed NON-DISNEY BRANDED stuff (usually at far better prices than a generic Grumpy tee). And even the resorts are starting to go back to it. BW has had none (no, DVC generic doesn't count), but in the midst of friends' visit last week they started selling a new line of BW-specific items. I hope that's a start after they basically stopped selling it at all but 5-6 resorts (Poly, WL and DAK Lodge never lost it ... but BC, All Stars, Saratoga etc all did).

I still wish merchandise was part of the show again. Disney has largely ruined a big piece of the themed/immersive puzzle when you buy Captain Jack crap at EPCOT, Jack Skellington at the shop where you exit Space Mountain and pins/plush/Duffy/vinyl just about anywhere.

~GFC~

I got a BC shirt on my last trip. While they still have a long way to go I have also seen some improvements in merchandise. I even like the WDW coffee mugs because they have a lot of the attractions on them.

Great observation. The whole "off the nose" take on merchandise is very important. I don't wear Disney logo merchandise either and like "inside" stuff better.

This is the stuff I go for as well. I can get a Mickey shirt anywhere and everyone will know it from a mile away. You have to be a fan though to spot a Jungle Cruise shirt or a Monorail shirt.

 

[wdwmagic]

The Apple event "Celebrating Steve Jobs" video is now up on the Apple site
http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/10oiuhfvojb23/event/index.html

Several mentions of what has been touched on previously in this thread in regard to Disney and the loss of Walt Disney, and how the company would go forward.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

The Apple event "Celebrating Steve Jobs" video is now up on the Apple site
http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/10oiuhfvojb23/event/index.html

Several mentions of what has been touched on previously in this thread in regard to Disney and the loss of Walt Disney, and how the company would go forward.

We'll have to see how much they end up being trapped by their own legacy. I do feel that they have slipped in their ability to create intuitive software over the last few years. Lion, the new operating system had some features that took a few steps backward IMO, as evidenced by the amount of articles on "how to this or that (scrolling, icon colors, etc) go back to being just like Snow Leopard". We'll have to see who's personal taste will hover over the product line. Getting the white iPhone home button to match perfectly before release speaks volumes.

Steve Jobs did not invent the iPod or iPhone either. As far as I know they were pitched to him by the designers within. He didn't invent the windows system or the mouse that was pioneered at Xerox parc. He did represent the finest execution of those ideas and supported them, products we are hopelessly addicted to, and to that end I wonder how people felt when Jack Daniels died? He was a visionary for sure and we feel his loss. I'm looking forward to checking out the link, thanks!

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I have not been to DL in a long time. Looking at pictures of the place I can imagine that it is very similar. As far as MK dining goes, it is the worst park for dining. It is a good thing that Kona and the GF Cafe are so close. We generally go there on MK days.



I got a BC shirt on my last trip. While they still have a long way to go I have also seen some improvements in merchandise. I even like the WDW coffee mugs because they have a lot of the attractions on them.


This is the stuff I go for as well. I can get a Mickey shirt anywhere and everyone will know it from a mile away. You have to be a fan though to spot a Jungle Cruise shirt or a Monorail shirt.

I have and love the Matterhorn shirt. Goes with the lederhosen.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Marty Sklar tells us of WDW

Here's a fragment of his upcoming memoir.

http://www.iaapa.org/industry/funworld/2011/sep/features/MagicKingdom/index.asp

 

[KevinYee]

There's a long history of the partnership between artists and their wealthy/famous champions. Think of the Italian benefactors commissioning paintings and sculptures, for instance. Is today's fashion/design-aware CEO (such as Steve Jobs) the modern equivalent? Is a designer spurred to creativity in different ways based on who the boss is, and what she/he wants?

Bob Gurr once described Steve Wynn as a modern-day Walt Disney to me. Is it fair to say that a motivated designer will design "better"?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

There's a long history of the partnership between artists and their wealthy/famous champions. Think of the Italian benefactors commissioning paintings and sculptures, for instance. Is today's fashion/design-aware CEO (such as Steve Jobs) the modern equivalent? Is a designer spurred to creativity in different ways based on who the boss is, and what she/he wants?

Bob Gurr once described Steve Wynn as a modern-day Walt Disney to me. Is it fair to say that a motivated designer will design "better"?

In my experience, I'd say yes. As a leader you totally want to motivate, and as a worker, I know I want to work for a benevolent dictator. But...they need to drink the same "Kool Aid". I worked for Tony for quite a few years and knew his values and tried my best to deliver on what I knew was stylistically important to him in the design, so you embrace and try and deliver on that. I embraced some of those core design rules in my work later and led with them as well. I operate on praise to a great degree and need my clients not just to like the result but to love it. I recently had a client hem and haw over the design of something and they said "I'm not sure...I guess I could be talked into it". This irritated me and I said, "If you need to be talked into it, then we shouldn't be doing it!". "I'm coming back with something you'll instantly love, that's what you're paying me for, I need you to love it".

"We aim to please" is an old adage and you do more and better for those who you think appreciate your effort.

It's interesting. We had leadership at the WDI from time to time that really had no intrinsic love for the product, or the Disney magic. They drank Tang. This bred a culture of apathy as it only has to be "good enough". Or if they said it had to be amazing, you knew they could not tell the difference anyway. In some cases insecurity permeated as people were not sure of what management DID value, so they did not approach the work boldly and might try and win by bringing the job in for less versus making it a breakthrough ride. I remember one time my partner was criticized for having too much of a "Can do" attitude. That was considered dangerous as she was getting the engineers so excited that they thought they could do things that maybe were technically risky (nothing to do with safety BTW).

On the other hand, when he had a leader that loved what we were working on, the projects bloomed and everyone stayed late to exceed the expectations of the boss. The best days were when the leader would come down and ride it and we waited for the reaction. Those same leaders can be tough and drive you to do better work than you thought you were capable of with a hard discipline and encouragement. You want to please those kinds of leaders because you know that they appreciate what you do and they themselves will go to bat for the quality to their boss and get the money to win. I tried to be that person and tried to spread the excitement I was sensing to the rest of the group.

 

[ChrisFL]

I just wanted to post here that I've been playing an excellent video game..."Red Dead Redemption"

I'm posting it because I feel like I'm in Frontierland or Main St. USA when I'm in certain parts of the game. They really did a brilliant job capturing the atmosphere, music, sounds and just overall feel of the wild west, like Disney does.

The game takes place in 1911, about the same era of Main St. USA, so thats partially why it feels familiar in that area. In addition its blending of the "modern" city to the old west is very apparent, similar to how Frontierland and Liberty Square in MK blend in.

I'm still looking for a big runaway train though

I've considered being a video game designer, but unlike theme park attractions, they seem come and go too quickly, however I suppose the upside is that you're probably more frequently working on new projects.

I think video game design and theme park design share a lot in common these days, and both take some cues from movie-making to begin with, and branch out from there.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

I just wanted to post here that I've been playing an excellent video game..."Red Dead Redemption"

I'm posting it because I feel like I'm in Frontierland or Main St. USA when I'm in certain parts of the game. They really did a brilliant job capturing the atmosphere, music, sounds and just overall feel of the wild west, like Disney does.

The game takes place in 1911, about the same era of Main St. USA, so thats partially why it feels familiar in that area. In addition its blending of the "modern" city to the old west is very apparent, similar to how Frontierland and Liberty Square in MK blend in.

I'm still looking for a big runaway train though

I've considered being a video game designer, but unlike theme park attractions, they seem come and go too quickly, however I suppose the upside is that you're probably more frequently working on new projects.

I think video game design and theme park design share a lot in common these days, and both take some cues from movie-making to begin with, and branch out from there.

I think designing virtual worlds can be more fun than imagineering as you can defy gravity and do lots of things budgets and building codes would never allow. I got to design a virtual set for a TV show once and it was really fun. Good idea. I'll check out the screenshots of the game.

 

[MarkTwain]

Imagineering/thematic design and video game design have always seemed pretty similar to me; both kind of involve "creating worlds" in a sense. But as has been noted, video games offer more freedom, while thematic design offers more permanence.

 

[Eddie Sotto]

Imagineering/thematic design and video game design have always seemed pretty similar to me; both kind of involve "creating worlds" in a sense. But as has been noted, video games offer more freedom, while thematic design offers more permanence.

Unless you merge the two.

 

[MarkTwain]

Unless you merge the two.

You mean like Toy Story Midway Mania?

 

[Eddie Sotto]

You mean like Toy Story Midway Mania?

Well, more like building two versions of the same place, one virtually that has gateways that see into the real world and vice versa.