Downtown Disney update

[jt04]

JT, what I dont get is that most of what you said is nothing more then an opinion also. Do you have some inside knowledge at TWDC? or TDO for that matter? Have you spoken to the Marketplace vendors yourself? Lets face it TDO abandoned PI....open up the gates and turned it loose. They got exactly what they asked for. NO ONE desputes at the end it wasnt such a great place to be. You are correct about the convention buisness issue, but there are still some buisnesses haveing them. Thus making the competition even greater getting that buisness.


As much as I was a fan of PI I still dont think it will make a return. I also think it would be a HUGE mistake. As far as RR is concerned they have cut their hours in the absence of PI. Few people want to venture down there. What I would like to know is....did you actually visit PI during its tenure....beginning....middle....closeing?

Yes.

If TWDC would turn DTD into what it can and should be then a lot of folks here would have an "ah-hah!" moment. No matter what they do the PI and AC fans will find fault. But if they create something compelling (make no mistake they have the visionaries to do so) then resonable people will see PI was the wrong idea, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I really think they fear DTD taking revenue from the parks. I think that theory is completely wrong if that is the stumbling block.

RR may be off a bit but in case you haven't heard the economy is slipping in some sectors. I would think a lot of people are choosing groceries over a night out these days.

 

[John]

Yes.

If TWDC would turn DTD into what it can and should be then a lot of folks here would have an "ah-hah!" moment. No matter what they do the PI and AC fans will find fault. But if they create something compelling (make no mistake they have the visionaries to do so) then resonable people will see PI was the wrong idea, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I really think they fear DTD taking revenue from the parks. I think that theory is completely wrong if that is the stumbling block.

RR may be off a bit but in case you haven't heard the economy is slipping in some sectors. I would think a lot of people are choosing groceries over a night out these days.

ummmm...yes you have inside info from TWDC?....Yes you have inside knowledge of TDO?......Yes you have spoken to vendors in Marketplace (managers)? Yes...you have visited Pi during its tenure? Which yes are you referring to? As far as taking revenue from the parks...I dont think that was ever a consideration. They as you know have had a couple of concepts that were to never come to frutition. They totally misread the market and scrambled to come up with plan "C". Which I still doubt outside vendors will be signing on to any new plans. WIll there be some? Sure, I think so. But to the level that they would prefer?....NO way. Whatever plan they come up with it will have a substantial Disney presence.Meaninf Disney "owned and operated" stores. Resurants? That is going to be interesting. Not sure what possible resturant would sign up for something like DTD. The profit margins are tough to manage in that setting. Prices for dinner I imagine would be enormous. TDO isnt about to give any deals regardless of how bad they need tenants.

SO that leads us unfortunately back to PI, Anyone in the resturant/bar/cruise and just about any other entertaimnet industry will tell you that alcohol is a "cash king". A cruises bottom line depends on how much alcohol they sell....nothing else. Why do you think PI was opened in the first place? In the first five yrs or so PI was printing money (fact). I digress.....I dont see how any investment would see a return needed to make this area profitable without alcohol. BTW....although I was a frequent guest of PI.....I dont drink.

 

[John]

YESSSSSS I know Bongos...RR and the Rainforest already exsist.

 

[jt04]

ummmm...yes you have inside info from TWDC?....Yes you have inside knowledge of TDO?......Yes you have spoken to vendors in Marketplace (managers)? Yes...you have visited Pi during its tenure? Which yes are you referring to? As far as taking revenue from the parks...I dont think that was ever a consideration. They as you know have had a couple of concepts that were to never come to frutition. They totally misread the market and scrambled to come up with plan "C". Which I still doubt outside vendors will be signing on to any new plans. WIll there be some? Sure, I think so. But to the level that they would prefer?....NO way. Whatever plan they come up with it will have a substantial Disney presence.Meaninf Disney "owned and operated" stores. Resurants? That is going to be interesting. Not sure what possible resturant would sign up for something like DTD. The profit margins are tough to manage in that setting. Prices for dinner I imagine would be enormous. TDO isnt about to give any deals regardless of how bad they need tenants.

SO that leads us unfortunately back to PI, Anyone in the resturant/bar/cruise and just about any other entertaimnet industry will tell you that alcohol is a "cash king". A cruises bottom line depends on how much alcohol they sell....nothing else. Why do you think PI was opened in the first place? In the first five yrs or so PI was printing money (fact). I digress.....I dont see how any investment would see a return needed to make this area profitable without alcohol. BTW....although I was a frequent guest of PI.....I dont drink.

You don't even want to know why PI was opened I doubt.

There is no way to measure the true costs of PI. So while it may have been in the black if you look at it in a narrow way, there is no way of measuring the impacts elsewhere financially. You might want to start with security for example, lost sales elsewhere as I know many who no longer went there. That has to be considered.

But this has all been discussed before. DTD is always crowded. Bongos, HoB, RFC etc have been there forever. That is because they make a profit. Splitsville is opening soon which will add to the energy. These people are not there to lose money. And they are not stupid. They obviously are turning a profit.

I have said this all before and have no desire to rehash the same points you and others forget 2 minutes later. I get you can't remember because you are emotionally attached to PI. It is religion for some. I suggest deprogramming yourself from all things PI.

 

[TP2000]

It's a shame that Disney doesn't have anyone on staff who knows how to take an underutilized and abandoned corner of property and turn it into a nightly dance n' music n' games party that attracts tourists and locals alike, and that can even be changed with entirely new themes every 8 to 12 months....

Oh, wait, they do. And they're the folks working in Anaheim who came up with Glow Fest, elecTRONica, and now the Mad T Party.

Honestly, sometimes I think that someone must have cut the phone lines between Florida and California. Either TDO or TDA (maybe both?) is operating in a vacuum and refuses to talk to the other coast.

I would love to know what prevents TDO from at least attempting a Mad T Party style event at Pleasure Island. There's got to be a good story there! Is it Ego? Ignorance? Cost? Or are they just shy?

 

[jt04]

It's a shame that Disney doesn't have anyone on staff who knows how to take an underutilized and abandoned corner of property and turn it into a nightly dance n' music n' games party that attracts tourists and locals alike, and that can even be changed with entirely new themes every 8 to 12 months....

Oh, wait, they do. And they're the folks working in Anaheim who came up with Glow Fest, elecTRONica, and now the Mad T Party.

Honestly, sometimes I think that someone must have cut the phone lines between Florida and California. Either TDO or TDA (maybe both?) is operating in a vacuum and refuses to talk to the other coast.

I would love to know what prevents TDO from at least attempting a Mad T Party style event at Pleasure Island. There's got to be a good story there! Is it Ego? Ignorance? Cost? Or are they just shy?

Remeber the MTP and the predecessors are in a controlled environment. Note they were not placed at DL's DTD. I think they could make a similar "party" in the Communicore Plaza by clearing the clutter and adding the infrastructure for something like elecTRONica and have it be a major winner. Just open the 'doors' after Illuminations ends and the rest of FW is closed and rake in the dough by the wheelbarrow.

Do I have to think of everything!

 

[Tim_4]

Oh, wait, they do. And they're the folks working in Anaheim who came up with Glow Fest, elecTRONica, and now the Mad T Party.

They're all the same folks. Nobody ever believes me when I say this (and I say it a lot) but major projects at WDW are NOT planned in Orlando (for the most part). Orlando folks have a voice in the conversation but executive leadership is almost entirely in California and that's where the major decisions like this are made.

Remeber the MTP and the predecessors are in a controlled environment. Note they were not placed at DL's DTD. I think they could make a similar "party" in the Communicore Plaza by clearing the clutter and adding the infrastructure for something like elecTRONica and have it be a major winner. Just open the 'doors' after Illuminations ends and the rest of FW is closed and rake in the dough by the wheelbarrow.

Do I have to think of everything!

JT I don't always agree with you but the lack of a "controlled environment" is exactly the way to phrase the issue they had at Pleasure Island.

 

[71jason]

I really think they fear DTD taking revenue from the parks. I think that theory is completely wrong if that is the stumbling block.

I think you are very much onto something here, JT, although (as it tradition) I disagree that the theory is completely wrong. Everything WDW has done in the last decade or so--Magic Express, Magic Your Way passes, the dining plan--has been largely intended to pushing guests to buy length of stay passes. Disney clearly expects you to buy a ticket for every day you're in Orlando.

This was never an issue with PI--the hours it operated and the crowd it drew were not taking away paying guests from the theme parks in huge numbers. (In fact, while the numbers were marginal in the big picture, I knew several out-of-town AdvClub fans who went to the parks during the day simply to kill time until the Club opened.) But if you give guests some family-friendly entertainment with a couple cool stores (Lego, WoD) and a restaurant that is a mini-theme park onto itself (T- Rex, RFC)...then a lot of them are going to be willing to trade a day at the parks for a day at DTD. Sure the food and souviners are overpriced, but you'd pay that in EPCOT anyway, and at least at DTD you save yourself the cover charge.

That's why TDO seem scared of anything more interesting than second-rate mall stores and those high-end restaurants they never seemed able to attract. Just as non-paying guests flocked to PI for live music and fireworks when the gates came down, they'll flock to any sort of free entertainment at DTD--and give up an extra day of park-hopping to do it. It's the same reason the DTD parking lot will be a zoo tomorrow night even though there haven't been Independence Day fireworks there in at least 4 years. Any kind of rides or a World of Color show without having to pay $90 (plus $15 to park)? No way that doesn't affect ticket sales around the resort.

 

[jt04]

I think you are very much onto something here, JT, although (as it tradition) I disagree that the theory is completely wrong. Everything WDW has done in the last decade or so--Magic Express, Magic Your Way passes, the dining plan--has been largely intended to pushing guests to buy length of stay passes. Disney clearly expects you to buy a ticket for every day you're in Orlando.

This was never an issue with PI--the hours it operated and the crowd it drew were not taking away paying guests from the theme parks in huge numbers. (In fact, while the numbers were marginal in the big picture, I knew several out-of-town AdvClub fans who went to the parks during the day simply to kill time until the Club opened.) But if you give guests some family-friendly entertainment with a couple cool stores (Lego, WoD) and a restaurant that is a mini-theme park onto itself (T- Rex, RFC)...then a lot of them are going to be willing to trade a day at the parks for a day at DTD. Sure the food and souviners are overpriced, but you'd pay that in EPCOT anyway, and at least at DTD you save yourself the cover charge.

That's why TDO seem scared of anything more interesting than second-rate mall stores and those high-end restaurants they never seemed able to attract. Just as non-paying guests flocked to PI for live music and fireworks when the gates came down, they'll flock to any sort of free entertainment at DTD--and give up an extra day of park-hopping to do it. It's the same reason the DTD parking lot will be a zoo tomorrow night even though there haven't been Independence Day fireworks there in at least 4 years. Any kind of rides or a World of Color show without having to pay $90 (plus $15 to park)? No way that doesn't affect ticket sales around the resort.

I think it is wrong-headed. The goal should be to provide the guest with a quality experience ultimately. Some will prefer the DTD experience especially if it is enhanced with Disney magic. And I think you create more revenue from more visitors than any revenue that might be lost from people choosing DTD over a park for a night or two. I also think a great DTD would drive AP sales. Locals could choose a park or two and cap it off with a movie and a meal at DTD. Makes for a great day for AP'ers. I also believe an enhanced DTD can drive DVC sales in ways they have not even thought of.

WIN-WIN-WIN

 

[DCLcruiser]

I will say that the Boardwalk does offer dancing at Atlantic Dance, but even not much beyond that. They do have some acts along the water. So while they offer something similar to PI, it's a smaller area with a much different atmosphere.

I thought Atlantic Dance Hall was GREAT! But, it was really hard to get to from other on-site resorts via buses.

 

[WDW1974]

Sorry folks spin, personal opinions, subjective "facts" and propaganda will not change things. Some places likely are doing better convention business but ultimately at the expense of other places due to the worst economy in our lifetimes.

Again if PI is all some of you try to make us think it is you would see Disney doing more of them including at WDW. The comedy club and AC were not the problems as has been mentioned so many times that failing to accept this makes every other comment seem like spin.

And as I said, "DONE!" Bye.

Why do you say this, but still come back?

And why is the incredible (expletive deleted) situation at TSFKaPI so important to you? It's closed. Four years now. Take glee in knowing what brought others joy, entertainment, and employment is gone and not coming back.

But, please, as someone who won't even say when they last set foot in the place (if ever) or how many times they've been (if ever) or if they've ever been privvy to internal documents and communications (or even just people who do know what went down and how) hearing you drone on about PI like you were an expert is akin to thinking Taco Bell is gourmet cuisine. Seriously.

You have no idea what went on or why. You don't see the simple reality that Disney has no clue what to do (yet alone a grand vision like you've proclaimed before) with the land and hasn't since they started to give up on the concept of PI over a decade ago now. You don't know how it has affected conventions and their guests. You don't know much, but you blather on about this topic like no other.

And, FWIW, while I enjoyed PI, I'm not one of those folks who are crushed it is gone. The parks are always my first priority and TDO has done a masterful job running them this century, right? But I certainly see how out of touch and clueless the Orlando 'leadership team' has been in deciding how to run PI and then how to replace it.

You offer nothing.

 

[Tim_4]

But, please, as someone who won't even say when they last set foot in the place (if ever) or how many times they've been (if ever) or if they've ever been privvy to internal documents and communications (or even just people who do know what went down and how) hearing you drone on about PI like you were an expert is akin to thinking Taco Bell is gourmet cuisine. Seriously.

 

[menamechris]

Why do you say this, but still come back?

And why is the incredible (expletive deleted) situation at TSFKaPI so important to you? It's closed. Four years now. Take glee in knowing what brought others joy, entertainment, and employment is gone and not coming back.

But, please, as someone who won't even say when they last set foot in the place (if ever) or how many times they've been (if ever) or if they've ever been privvy to internal documents and communications (or even just people who do know what went down and how) hearing you drone on about PI like you were an expert is akin to thinking Taco Bell is gourmet cuisine. Seriously.

You have no idea what went on or why. You don't see the simple reality that Disney has no clue what to do (yet alone a grand vision like you've proclaimed before) with the land and hasn't since they started to give up on the concept of PI over a decade ago now. You don't know how it has affected conventions and their guests. You don't know much, but you blather on about this topic like no other.

And, FWIW, while I enjoyed PI, I'm not one of those folks who are crushed it is gone. The parks are always my first priority and TDO has done a masterful job running them this century, right? But I certainly see how out of touch and clueless the Orlando 'leadership team' has been in deciding how to run PI and then how to replace it.

You offer nothing.

You get a like for that...

 

[WDW1974]

They're all the same folks. Nobody ever believes me when I say this (and I say it a lot) but major projects at WDW are NOT planned in Orlando (for the most part). Orlando folks have a voice in the conversation but executive leadership is almost entirely in California and that's where the major decisions like this are made.

Only at the very top of the leadership chart. Closing PI and creating Hyperion Wharf and then abandoning it when no third parties were interested (much like Flamingo Crossing) were all done out of TDO (yes, with Burbank's OK).

With One Disney, and Meg being the leader of DLR and DLPR as well as WDW, most decisions of a major type are going through Orlando (even when the folks here are clueless about things ... say DCA's new merchandise shortage to pick a recent topic). Those night dance raves at DCA were most assuredly not planned in O-Town, but most things you could think of are/were.

JT I don't always agree with you but the lack of a "controlled environment" is exactly the way to phrase the issue they had at Pleasure Island.

You don't want to encourage him! He'll never stop!

 

[Tim_4]

Only at the very top of the leadership chart. Closing PI and creating Hyperion Wharf and then abandoning it when no third parties were interested (much like Flamingo Crossing) were all done out of TDO (yes, with Burbank's OK).

With One Disney, and Meg being the leader of DLR and DLPR as well as WDW, most decisions of a major type are going through Orlando (even when the folks here are clueless about things ... say DCA's new merchandise shortage to pick a recent topic). Those night dance raves at DCA were most assuredly not planned in O-Town, but most things you could think of are/were.

I'll take your word for it, only because I have no knowledge of how it all worked back when PI closed. I AM familiar with how the situation is right now and based on what Tom Staggs is involved with now (would have been Jay Rasulo at the time), I can't imagine how closing PI entirely was any lower than his call.

You don't want to encourage him! He'll never stop!

Eh I'd rather hear general PI obsession than Adventurers Club obsession.

Or Beastly Kingdomme obsession.

Or Avatar hatred.

Or scooter hatred.

Or Brazilian hatred.

K, I'm done.

 

[John]

You don't even want to know why PI was opened I doubt.

There is no way to measure the true costs of PI. So while it may have been in the black if you look at it in a narrow way, there is no way of measuring the impacts elsewhere financially. You might want to start with security for example, lost sales elsewhere as I know many who no longer went there. That has to be considered.

But this has all been discussed before. DTD is always crowded. Bongos, HoB, RFC etc have been there forever. That is because they make a profit. Splitsville is opening soon which will add to the energy. These people are not there to lose money. And they are not stupid. They obviously are turning a profit.

I have said this all before and have no desire to rehash the same points you and others forget 2 minutes later. I get you can't remember because you are emotionally attached to PI. It is religion for some. I suggest deprogramming yourself from all things PI.

First I dont need you to tell me what I need to do or not to do. I asked you a question to clarify a previous answer you gave. You choose to ignore it....thats your perogative. No on comes on these boards to be talked to that way. You come across like you are some kind of DTD expert/imagineer and only offer up opinions. There is a difference between a profit and a profit margin. If the buisnesses were doing so well the Magic shop....Starabillia would still be there. RR wouldnt have cut their hours. Anytime I have been there Bongos wasnt exactly busting at the seams. Niether was HOB. Fact is you dont know what these resturants profit/loss sheets say....do you? Dont assume just because they are open means they are exactly profitable. They all have a lease.

In one aspect you may be correct about taking revenue from other places....and not the parks. If PI was open with a resturant or two, I am sure Bongos would take a hit as well as HOB. Which could push them over the perverbial line.

P.S. No one said they were stupid.

Stupid is....is what stupid does....in this case....what stupid says...

 

[WDW1974]

You get a like for that...

I'd rather have a pizza ... seriously!

 

[menamechris]

I'd rather have a pizza ... seriously!

Ha! Next time you are in Orlando, I'll treat you.

 

[WDW1974]

I'll take your word for it, only because I have no knowledge of how it all worked back when PI closed. I AM familiar with how the situation is right now and based on what Tom Staggs is involved with now (would have been Jay Rasulo at the time), I can't imagine how closing PI entirely was any lower than his call.

The final call on closing PI was Bob Iger's, but it wasn't one that was weighed heavily. Rasulo pushed for it and Al Weiss and Meg Crofton and the TDO leadership team were all pushing for it right behind him. They started to seriously talk about closing it as early as 2001, btw. They couldn't keep the clubs updated as you need to (check Vegas mega-resorts for instance, the clubs that were the hottest places in 2007 mostly don't exist now, they might be on the 3rd or 4th version of a concept since then), they didn't want to put any money into the place and they thought that third parties would be lining up at the door to join Disney's Lake Buena Vista Mall. ... Too bad, Wall Street collapsed and brought much of the world economy down with it. But that is another tale.

 

[WDW1974]

Ha! Next time you are in Orlando, I'll treat you.

Ah, you want to have your name placed on the famed 'Take a Spirit to Dinner' wall!

I could really go for pizza now. Problem is, I'd have to drive 20 minutes to the beach to get it ... life in paradise!