Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

[cmatt]

The trains will be run by the state of Florida, not private companies. If any private companies are involved it will be freight lines because the state is stuck using their track (like Amtrak).
.

the edinburgh to london trains (east coast) is now government run as national express could not afford to pay for the buy out

 

[jt04]

OK, some random thoughts:

- The State of Florida will run the trains... What experience do they have with this sort of thing? What has the State of Florida done well? Floridians might want to chime in.

- Perhaps the State could contract with a company that has 50 years of transportation experience, and who just hired an executive from San Francisco to manage their internal transit systems. Hmm, who would that company be?

- I was on a TGV that stopped at CDG [Paris Airport], and then the Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy station about 20 minutes later. Maybe they don't sell tickets for just that portion of the trip, or maybe they are more expensive than the RER. I need to go back and do more research ;^)

- Regarding different speed trains on the same track, I recall being in the UK, traveling from Bath to London, and there were 3 different trains, with 3 different travel times. By waiting a little longer for the third train, which was an Intercity 125 [Like a diesel-powered Acela], we actually arrived in London before either of the other 2 trains that left earlier, passing them along the way. The Acela operates the same way, with regional trains on the same line. And the speed issues with Acela are because of track conditions, mostly curves and old bridges, not because of traffic, usually.

Bottom line, it appears the Florida HS train will be:
- more expensive than the Magical Express
- about the same cost as a cab for a family of 4
- will require transfer to WDW transportation at the WDW station
- will take more time overall to get you to your resort than any other option
- will cost the taxpayers [Florida and Federal] a large amount of money, probably ongoing
- will probably be fun to ride. Which I will. At least once.

Back to work. Hi ho...

Mick

It won't be the same price as a cab because Disney will never include cab fare as part of a resort stay package.

Also, the Magical Express does not have dedicated resort service I'm pretty sure. You have to go to different resorts until reaching your specific one. However, if the train replaces the ME, then passangers departing the train may be able to hop on a bus that is a direct connect to your resort. Or the busses could even provide a direct connection to one of the parks with your bags sent to your room and waiting for you when you arrive at the end of the day.

A lot of folks are letting cynicism blind them to the real possibilities the train can and should offer.

 

[TP2000]

A lot of folks are letting cynicism blind them to the real possibilities the train can and should offer.

I'm cynical of these high-speed train proposals in all the states currently planning for them, I admit. Part of the cynicism comes from the fact that whatever "possibilities" these trains offer will be at great expense to the taxpayers who subsidize them.

But from my own experience with trains, and from what I have read from the Florida and California rail authorities (I've even been to two public hearings for the California system), there won't be more than a dozen trains per day running on these systems. The Florida system is not being set up for short-hop shuttle service, as far as I have read.

But if there is a subsidized "shuttle train" running every half hour from MCO to WDW, I'll buy you a churro and a train ticket and we can ride the thing together. :lol:

 

[jt04]

I'm cynical of these high-speed train proposals in all the states currently planning for them, I admit. Part of the cynicism comes from the fact that whatever "possibilities" these trains offer will be at great expense to the taxpayers who subsidize them.

But from my own experience with trains, and from what I have read from the Florida and California rail authorities (I've even been to two public hearings for the California system), there won't be more than a dozen trains per day running on these systems. The Florida system is not being set up for short-hop shuttle service, as far as I have read.

But if there is a subsidized "shuttle train" running every half hour from MCO to WDW, I'll buy you a churro and a train ticket and we can ride the thing together. :lol:

If they aren't considering it then they are plain stupid. The whole point of spending so much public funds is to create tangible quality of life benefits for the public. If mass transit isn't about economics, convienence and enhancing the public transportation system then it is a colossal waste of resources. I'm convinced making transportation easier between MCO, the Convention Center, Universal, Sea World, Int. Drive and WDW must be part of the scope of this project or it is pointless. Lessening traffic on local roads should be a major goal and this project can provide that. It isn't complicated. Almost every airport in Europe has such a system and it works very well. This system is a perfect test bed to determine if high speed rail has a place in the US.

 

[GrumpyFan]

According to their most recent public meeting in March, they're planning the following:

• Approximately hourly service from Tampa to Orlando
• Additional frequency between Orlando Airport and attractions
• Trip time of under and hour Orlando Airport to Downtown Tampa (compared to 96 min by auto at 2015 Peak Hour)
• Maximum Speed 168 MPH
• Approximately 2 million passengers/year forecast

Five stations planned:

• – Tampa – downtown multi-modal; possible light rail; site being cleared
• – Lakeland – five potential sites under evaluation:
  Polk County TPO choices: #1 USF Polytechnic; #2 Kathleen Road
• – Walt DisneyWorld – site being donated, exact location under review
• – Orange County Convention Center- Destination Parkway intermodal station in collaboration with Orange County
• – Orlando Airport – GOOA Board

 

[TP2000]

If they aren't considering it then they are plain stupid. The whole point of spending so much public funds is to create tangible quality of life benefits for the public. If mass transit isn't about economics, convienence and enhancing the public transportation system then it is a colossal waste of resources.... Almost every airport in Europe has such a system and it works very well.

jt, I think you are confusing a modern high-speed rail system designed to travel long distances at 200MPH, with a basic light-rail mass transit system designed to serve communities and local amenities like airports and stadiums and civic centers. Eurostar, for example, serves not a single airport in Europe, it serves the city centers and connects city centers with other city centers far away. The French TGV does have a station at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport however, but those trains don't serve downtown Paris. TGV's leaving from the Paris airport go to Belgium or the south of France. There are slower and far cheaper shuttle trains for that service to Paris.

Florida HSR will be using TGV-type equipment, or maybe Japanese Hitachi equipment. That's very expensive. Many airports in the US and Europe have direct rail service from terminals, but they are using far cheaper light-rail systems, or sometimes heavy-rail commuter systems like the Narita Express in Tokyo or the various rail services to London Heathrow.

Light Rail Mass Transit = 60MPH at $25 Million per mile (tracks, rolling stock, daily operation)

Heavy Rail Commuter System = 110MPH at $40 Million per mile (tracks, rolling stock, daily operation)

High Speed Rail = 200+MPH at $80 Million per mile (dedicated tracks, rolling stock, daily operation)

[Estimates pulled from several sources, individual systems can very by tens of millions of dollars per mile, plus or minus]

Not to mention that the rolling stock built for High Speed Rail systems are designed for long distance travel at a lower density than a light rail train. By trying to shoehorn a custom-built High Speed Rail system into a short-distance shuttle service, you are wasting billions of dollars on a system that could never begin to recoup the heavy tax subsidies needed to keep it going year after year. It's like using a fleet of Rolls Royce sedans to operate a Thrifty-Shopper shuttle service for housewives wanting a lift to the grocery store, when a new Chevy van would work just as well for far less money.

The stop at MCO would seem built for local residents in the 6 Million resident Tampa/Orlando metro areas (plus the politicians pushing the thing). Theoretically someone living in Tampa could take the train to MCO to catch a non-stop flight to London or Seattle, service that isn't offered out of Tampa and that would tack on a few extra hours to their flight for layovers somewhere.

But tourists arriving en masse every hour at MCO and needing a quick lift to Port Orleans or All Star Sports? The HSR service at MCO will only let them down and waste their time. Better and faster to just jump on a Magical Express bus. :animwink:

.

 

[TP2000]

According to their most recent public meeting in March, they're planning the following:

• Approximately hourly service from Tampa to Orlando
• Additional frequency between Orlando Airport and attractions
• Trip time of under and hour Orlando Airport to Downtown Tampa (compared to 96 min by auto at 2015 Peak Hour)
• Maximum Speed 168 MPH
• Approximately 2 million passengers/year forecast

I couldn't find anywhere on the Florida HSR site where they commit to such a thing, but if this is what they are telling taxpayers attending local community meetings than that is HORRIFYINGLY INACCURATE. (Edit, found that reference, on page 10 of the Powerpoint show they gave in Lakeland on 3/24/10. Hilarious!)

A train every hour between Tampa and Orlando, for a schedule that (being conservative) would offer 15 trips per day between 6AM and 9PM?

Eurostar operates 17 trips per day on busy weekdays between London and Paris. You know, London and Paris; two of the world's great capitals with a combined population of 22 Million people and no physical road linking them? But Tampa and Orlando, with a population of 6 Million people and a modern 10 lane freeway running between them will somehow field nearly the same number of high-speed trains per day as London and Paris???

That's aside from the silly assertion that they'll be running expensive high speed trainsets in constant shuttle mode between Sea World and Downtown Disney. :lol:

Seriously, if this is the type of stuff the Florida HSR authority is telling local residents at community meetings with a straight face, then I rest my case. Of course, Florida HSR has yet to sign with anyone, neither a rail company or a government agency, to build and operate this system. Right now this is still just Florida politicians holding pep rallies for the taxpaying troops and talking out of their... ear.

.

 

[unkadug]

jt, I think you are confusing a modern high-speed rail system designed to travel long distances at 200MPH, with a basic light-rail mass transit system designed to serve communities and local amenities like airports and stadiums and civic centers. Eurostar, for example, serves not a single airport in Europe, it serves the city centers and connects city centers with other city centers far away. The French TGV does have a station at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport however, but those trains don't serve downtown Paris. TGV's leaving from the Paris airport go to Belgium or the south of France. There are slower and far cheaper shuttle trains for that service to Paris.

Florida HSR will be using TGV-type equipment, or maybe Japanese Hitachi equipment. That's very expensive. Many airports in the US and Europe have direct rail service from terminals, but they are using far cheaper light-rail systems, or sometimes heavy-rail commuter systems like the Narita Express in Tokyo or the various rail services to London Heathrow.

Light Rail Mass Transit = 60MPH at $25 Million per mile (tracks, rolling stock, daily operation)

Heavy Rail Commuter System = 110MPH at $40 Million per mile (tracks, rolling stock, daily operation)

High Speed Rail = 200+MPH at $80 Million per mile (dedicated tracks, rolling stock, daily operation)

[Estimates pulled from several sources, individual systems can very by tens of millions of dollars per mile, plus or minus]

Not to mention that the rolling stock built for High Speed Rail systems are designed for long distance travel at a lower density than a light rail train. By trying to shoehorn a custom-built High Speed Rail system into a short-distance shuttle service, you are wasting billions of dollars on a system that could never begin to recoup the heavy tax subsidies needed to keep it going year after year. It's like using a fleet of Rolls Royce sedans to operate a Thrifty-Shopper shuttle service for housewives wanting a lift to the grocery store, when a new Chevy van would work just as well for far less money.

The stop at MCO would seem built for local residents in the 6 Million resident Tampa/Orlando metro areas (plus the politicians pushing the thing). Theoretically someone living in Tampa could take the train to MCO to catch a non-stop flight to London or Seattle, service that isn't offered out of Tampa and that would tack on a few extra hours to their flight for layovers somewhere.

But tourists arriving en masse every hour at MCO and needing a quick lift to Port Orleans or All Star Sports? The HSR service at MCO will only let them down and waste their time. Better and faster to just jump on a Magical Express bus. :animwink:

.

How DARE you bring facts into this conversation.

 

[jt04]

How DARE you bring facts into this conversation.

He isn't. He is spinning because it looks increasingly likely that a backwater state will have a functioning HSR before "progressive" California. :lol:

Now if you will excuse me, Dog the Bounty Hunter is on!

 

[wm49rs]

He isn't. He is spinning because it looks increasingly likely that a backwater state will have a functioning HSR before "progressive" California. :lol:

Now if you will excuse me, Dog the Bounty Hunter is on!

Even though neither state is expected to start accepting those pesky bids on the HSR work until early 2011. How that equates to FL necessarily starting on the work before CA however....:shrug:

 

[jt04]

Even though neither state is expected to start accepting those pesky bids on the HSR work until early 2011. How that equates to FL necessarily starting on the work before CA however....:shrug:

California is beyond broke. Way beyond. :dazzle:

 

[lazyboy97o]

But tourists arriving en masse every hour at MCO and needing a quick lift to Port Orleans or All Star Sports? The HSR service at MCO will only let them down and waste their time. Better and faster to just jump on a Magical Express bus. :animwink:

Even a cab or limo is going to be just as expensive, or cheaper for a good many of the people present. The only way to make it worthwhile is for Disney to include rail tickets in its package pricing, like it does with Magic Express and jt04 seems to think will happen. If Disney (and other attractions) are getting a shuttle for the tourists, then they (the tourists) are the ones the people of Florida are likely going to want to pay.

Also, even if Disney did buy tickets for people coming, a shuttle has a set capacity, that once full, means people will have to wait for the next one to return to the airport. There is little to no option of just adding more capacity to the service at a given time. A shuttle train would also need ample standing room, not the individual seats of high speed rail.

 

[wm49rs]

California is beyond broke. Way beyond. :dazzle:

Well, thank goodness they're taking bids on projects with Federal funding. Or did you forget that little detail?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well, thank goodness they're taking bids on projects with Federal funding. Or did you forget that little detail?

The federal government is not paying for the entire project. What he is forgetting is that the state of California has already sold bonds for the project, and the funds generated from those sales can only be used for the project.

 

[wm49rs]

The federal government is not paying for the entire project. What he is forgetting is that the state of California has already sold bonds for the project, and the funds generated from those sales can only be used for the project.

That, and the fact the requirements of the funding necessitate bids being solicited and reviewed before any work begins. So there's no saying when the work will really begin in either state.

 

[mp2bill]

Cool

 

[Bolna]

Just a few thoughts:

German ICE trains stop at Frankfurt airport and often at Frankfurt main station as well. In Munich they consider it one of the biggest flaws of the airport that it does not have a connection with the German ICE systen and the new Berlin airport will be built with an ICE train station.

And I am not sure that the Eurostar can be compared to the new proposed link. Another example (and I am fully aware that this isn't comparable either) is the Nuremberg - Munich high speed ICE link I talked about before. This has a train every 30 minutes connecting Nuremberg with 500.000 inhabitants and Munich with 1 million from 4:30 am until 22:30 pm every day. Most of these trains go on to other places after Nuremberg (Munich tends to be the last or first stop), but still the traffic between these two cities on rail has increased incredibly. This is due to two facts: 1) high frequency of these trains, if I miss one I know I can take the next one 30 minutes later and 2) reducing travel time by car of 2.5 hours down to 70 minutes.

I absolutely understand that there is a different culture with regard to public transport in Europe than there is in the US, but I think having a high speed train only every 2 hours would not make it work.

I get the point about not building a high speed track for a local system. But why not use the tracks once they are there for the local system as well? I think if there was a shuttle from the airport - of course with different cars as well - that went to WDW every 20 minutes, that would be a great way to get people there. Disney would know when the shuttle arrives and at the bus station there it would have busses waiting for every resort and transport people on from there. So there wouldn't even have to be a huge delay included in this transfer from train to bus. On my last trip on ME, it took me 45 minutes from arrival at the first resort where guests where dropped off until I got to my resort. That wasn't fast either... Still I don't think it won't happen because it will sound more complicated to the guests and thus would make more people to rent a car and ME is mainly about getting the WDW guests not to rent a car so that they will stay on property and spend their money there.

 

[TP2000]

The federal government is not paying for the entire project. What he is forgetting is that the state of California has already sold bonds for the project, and the funds generated from those sales can only be used for the project.

Yeah, I voted for Prop 1A two years ago and the sale of the $20 Billion in bonds for the Calfirornia HSR project, and the Proposition passed with the voters and the bonds have been sold. There's already $9.5 Billion sitting in the bank from those bonds, and already being used for ongoing planning by the HSR authority in Sacramento. Plus the $2.5 Billion the Feds gave California six months ago, and whatever else comes from the Feds.

I'm not entirely sold on the California system, and sometimes I wonder if I should have voted no on Prop 1A. But it's done, and the money is there, regardless of the constant budget problems in Sacramento that go back to the 1980's.

Interestingly, the Phase One of the California system is rather massive, and that may be its undoing over the next few years.

California HSR Phase One - Anaheim to San Francisco, $45 Billion, 400 miles, 31 Million riders annually

Florida HSR Phase One - Tampa to Orlando, $2.5 Billion, 95 miles, 2 Million riders annually

Anaheim, for its part int he project, has already secured full funding of nearly $200 million for its new HSR train station, as the southern terminus of the Phase One segment. The land is owned by the city of Anaheim, and the environmental report gets finished by late summer, with construction beginning early 2011. It's called ARTIC (Anaheim Regional Transportation Intermodal Center), and it not only serves California HSR trains, but also existing Amtrak Surfliner trains and Metrolink commuter trains that currently use the adjacent Anaheim depot.

This level of planning and preparation is something we've yet to see from the Florida HSR group. There hasn't been so much as a sketch on a used cocktail napkin for the Tampa or Orlando HSR stations. http://www.articinfo.com/

Anaheim ARTIC - 2013

California HSR may never happen, and who knows what happens to the Billions and Billions of dollars already secured and dedicated to the California system in such a case. But the California team is still far ahead of the Florida team when it comes to planning, procurement and design.

 

[jt04]

Just a few thoughts:

German ICE trains stop at Frankfurt airport and often at Frankfurt main station as well. In Munich they consider it one of the biggest flaws of the airport that it does not have a connection with the German ICE systen and the new Berlin airport will be built with an ICE train station.

And I am not sure that the Eurostar can be compared to the new proposed link. Another example (and I am fully aware that this isn't comparable either) is the Nuremberg - Munich high speed ICE link I talked about before. This has a train every 30 minutes connecting Nuremberg with 500.000 inhabitants and Munich with 1 million from 4:30 am until 22:30 pm every day. Most of these trains go on to other places after Nuremberg (Munich tends to be the last or first stop), but still the traffic between these two cities on rail has increased incredibly. This is due to two facts: 1) high frequency of these trains, if I miss one I know I can take the next one 30 minutes later and 2) reducing travel time by car of 2.5 hours down to 70 minutes.

I absolutely understand that there is a different culture with regard to public transport in Europe than there is in the US, but I think having a high speed train only every 2 hours would not make it work.

I get the point about not building a high speed track for a local system. But why not use the tracks once they are there for the local system as well? I think if there was a shuttle from the airport - of course with different cars as well - that went to WDW every 20 minutes, that would be a great way to get people there. Disney would know when the shuttle arrives and at the bus station there it would have busses waiting for every resort and transport people on from there. So there wouldn't even have to be a huge delay included in this transfer from train to bus. On my last trip on ME, it took me 45 minutes from arrival at the first resort where guests where dropped off until I got to my resort. That wasn't fast either... Still I don't think it won't happen because it will sound more complicated to the guests and thus would make more people to rent a car and ME is mainly about getting the WDW guests not to rent a car so that they will stay on property and spend their money there.

This is exactly correct. And I think such a system would be highly efficient and user friendly. All the area resorts would benefit. And locals would benefit by having better traffic management, less wear and tear on the roads and less need for future highway projects such as widenings or massive "spaghetti bowls".

 

[GrumpyFan]

This level of planning and preparation is something we've yet to see from the Florida HSR group. There hasn't been so much as a sketch on a used cocktail napkin for the Tampa or Orlando HSR stations. http://www.articinfo.com/


California HSR may never happen, and who knows what happens to the Billions and Billions of dollars already secured and dedicated to the California system in such a case. But the California team is still far ahead of the Florida team when it comes to planning, procurement and design.

Umm, perhaps you haven't seen the Florida HSR site at: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org
They have several documents posted showing their progress. They also have specific paths outlined where the tracks will be placed, and proposed stations. Judging by what I've seen there, it appears that they are "sharpening their axes", laying the ground work and plans necessary to begin procurement, filing appropriate documents, lineup financing, getting bids, then construction.

Excerpts from their most recent presentation in May:
–

Includes five major tasks through end of 2010:
1-Program Management and Public Outreach elements.
2-Preparation of Draft PPP for Design-Build-Operate-Maintain and Finance Contract.
3-Preliminary Engineering 30% and Revised Cost Estimate.
4-Survey and ROW Acquisition.
5-Preparation of Early Works Safety project documents.

Timeline - "If Stars Align"
• September/October 2010
– 30% construction estimate
• November 2010. Subject to FRA Approval:
– RFP for Early Works Safety Project issued.
– RFQ for PPP to Design-Build Operate Maintain Finance issued
• February 2011
– Early Works Safety Project Awarded.
• March 2011
– DBOM&F RFP Issued to Qualified Teams
• Summer/Fall 2011
– DBOM&F Consortium Selected
• Fall 2012
– Construction Commences
• 2015: Grand Opening. Start of Revenue Service.

​

They have another public meeting coming up on July 19th in Tampa, so I would expect some more information to be posted soon.