Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
And I am not sure that the Eurostar can be compared to the new proposed link. Another example (and I am fully aware that this isn't comparable either) is the Nuremberg - Munich high speed ICE link I talked about before. This has a train every 30 minutes connecting Nuremberg with 500.000 inhabitants and Munich with 1 million from 4:30 am until 22:30 pm every day. Most of these trains go on to other places after Nuremberg (Munich tends to be the last or first stop), but still the traffic between these two cities on rail has increased incredibly. This is due to two facts: 1) high frequency of these trains, if I miss one I know I can take the next one 30 minutes later and 2) reducing travel time by car of 2.5 hours down to 70 minutes.
One big difference though between Nuremberg and Munich compared to Tampa and Orlando is getting around once you are there. Both Nuremberg and Munich have local transit options, including local rail systems (it was a few years ago, but I seem to recall both cities having a subway and light rail). Orlando and Tampa have neither. Then there is also the compactness of areas once reach, with the German cities having a greater density.
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
One big difference though between Nuremberg and Munich compared to Tampa and Orlando is getting around once you are there. Both Nuremberg and Munich have local transit options, including local rail systems (it was a few years ago, but I seem to recall both cities having a subway and light rail). Orlando and Tampa have neither. Then there is also the compactness of areas once reach, with the German cities having a greater density.

There are plans being considered to do this:
HSR Connectivity Potential
• 61 mile SunRailSystem in Orlando.
• Potential extension to OIA HSR terminal.
• 21 mile HART LRT runs directly to Tampa HSR Station.
• Major expansion HART bus system, main transit mall at Tampa HSR system.
• Future expansion plans of TBARTA –bus and rail.
These kinds of things take time and money to plan and build.
 

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
High Speed Rail in a county the size of Germany may work with a large portion of the operating cost being paid by the Govermnment. The US is much to large for a high speed rail system. The US already has a high speed transit system in the US and it is call airline travel. Airline travel in the US is cheap and gets you to almost every city of any size. Cost are lower than taking rail and gets you there just as fast. In all the reading I have done on the FL high speed rail, it will be cheaper to rent a taxi and drive to WDW than to take the train to the WDW station and than bus to your hotel. If it was up to me I would continue to use the Magical Express.

Ever heard the phase if you own a boat it is just a hole in the water to dump money into. Light Rail and High Speed Rail in the US is just a hole in the ground for the governments to dump money into.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
There are plans being considered to do this:
HSR Connectivity Potential
• 61 mile SunRailSystem in Orlando.
• Potential extension to OIA HSR terminal.
• 21 mile HART LRT runs directly to Tampa HSR Station.
• Major expansion HART bus system, main transit mall at Tampa HSR system.
• Future expansion plans of TBARTA –bus and rail.
These kinds of things take time and money to plan and build.
All of that should happen and be used before any connections are made. Getting around needs to be proven first.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
All of that should happen and be used before any connections are made. Getting around needs to be proven first.

I don't agree with this. It is important to build the core of the system that will be the heaviest traveled first. By starting with this "backbone" of a larger system it will be much easier to build connections. I also think they should push to complete the MCO-Conv Center-WDW segment ASAP. It is realitively short and will immediately generate revenue thereby helping offset costs as the system expands to Tampa and, if all goes well, to cities beyond.
 

Bolna

Well-Known Member
One big difference though between Nuremberg and Munich compared to Tampa and Orlando is getting around once you are there. Both Nuremberg and Munich have local transit options, including local rail systems (it was a few years ago, but I seem to recall both cities having a subway and light rail). Orlando and Tampa have neither. Then there is also the compactness of areas once reach, with the German cities having a greater density.

Yes, I am aware of that, that's why I said I knew it wasn't comparable. :) And that's what I meant about a different culture with regard to public transportation. I think any public transportations system only works when it is as accessible as possible, including local transit options. It has to be easy to take the train/bus/etc. otherwise it will always be more comfortable to hop in your car. I think one high speed rail link will not change a whole system of transportation which has grown over generations. :)

Oh and on the question about the competition between train and airplane: For longer distances airplanes will always be preferrable. But the experience here in Germany (once again being fully aware of the differences between these two countries!) has been that for train rides up to five hours the train becomes pretty competitive. Especially for business travelers: you arrive in the city center and don't have a long ride from the airport to your final destination, there aren't any security lines etc., since you are spending most of your time put in one place (instead of moving around from transit to airport, waiting at airport, boarding, plane ride, transit from airport) you can work more efficiently, you have more space on the train, you can make phone calls while on the train, the flexibel fares for the train are cheaper than a flexibel airline ticket (and there is a clever and very popular discount system).

I know far too little about the proposed high speed rail links in the US to comment on wether those are useful or not, I just wanted to add some perspective to the discussion! :wave:
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Yes, I am aware of that, that's why I said I knew it wasn't comparable. :) And that's what I meant about a different culture with regard to public transportation. I think any public transportations system only works when it is as accessible as possible, including local transit options. It has to be easy to take the train/bus/etc. otherwise it will always be more comfortable to hop in your car. I think one high speed rail link will not change a whole system of transportation which has grown over generations. :)

Oh and on the question about the competition between train and airplane: For longer distances airplanes will always be preferrable. But the experience here in Germany (once again being fully aware of the differences between these two countries!) has been that for train rides up to five hours the train becomes pretty competitive. Especially for business travelers: you arrive in the city center and don't have a long ride from the airport to your final destination, there aren't any security lines etc., since you are spending most of your time put in one place (instead of moving around from transit to airport, waiting at airport, boarding, plane ride, transit from airport) you can work more efficiently, you have more space on the train, you can make phone calls while on the train, the flexibel fares for the train are cheaper than a flexibel airline ticket (and there is a clever and very popular discount system).

I know far too little about the proposed high speed rail links in the US to comment on wether those are useful or not, I just wanted to add some perspective to the discussion! :wave:

You are doing a great job of that.

There are some Americans who see high speed rail connecting all cities in the States but that is certainly not necessary or practical. But there are certainly applications for HSR that make more sense than air travel. Orlando to Tampa is just one of them.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
You are doing a great job of that.

There are some Americans who see high speed rail connecting all cities in the States but that is certainly not necessary or practical. But there are certainly applications for HSR that make more sense than air travel. Orlando to Tampa is just one of them.

Agreed. There are a number of corridors throughout the US where HSR would be a boon. The corridor between Washington and Boston has shown both the potential and demand for HSR as opposed to air travel....
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Agreed. There are a number of corridors throughout the US where HSR would be a boon. The corridor between Washington and Boston has shown both the potential and demand for HSR as opposed to air travel....

It would be even better if that was actually true HSR.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
It would be even better if that was actually true HSR.

Perhaps, but considering the infastructure they had to work with, the development of the line and its popularity were good barometers for other areas of the country....
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Umm, perhaps you haven't seen the Florida HSR site at: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org
They have several documents posted showing their progress. They also have specific paths outlined where the tracks will be placed, and proposed stations.

Oh, yeah, I think anyone interested in HSR has checked out Florida's website. They've had those images of the proposed track alignment up there for quite awhile now. But it's all very, very vague stuff for the major stations, with only shaded lines and boxes on aerial photographs like this...

HSR-station-500x345.jpg


It would instill a lot of confidence in the thing if they could line up some station funding and maybe get an architecture firm to design at the very least the main terminus stations in Tampa and/or Orlando. Maybe something like, oh.... I don't know... this new HOK Architects designed station in Anaheim?
ARTIC_Facility.jpg


Heck, it would be cool if Florida's system could just throw any type of sketches or renderings out there of anything. The Florida organization doesn't even have a livery planned for the trains, and instead are just using clip art from European and Asian systems on their amateurish website. :rolleyes: Those types of details are important in getting the public behind the plan, and either they don't realize that or are simply not yet at that stage in planning.

The California HSR livery is already a big hit with UCLA fans, but the Stanford and USC alums in the state may force the HSR Authority to reconsider this widely used livery for the trainsets. :lol:
california-highspeed-train-01.jpg
cahsr2.jpg


http://cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Oh, yeah, I think anyone interested in HSR has checked out Florida's website. They've had those images of the proposed track alignment up there for quite awhile now. But it's all very, very vague stuff for the major stations, with only shaded lines and boxes on aerial photographs like this...

HSR-station-500x345.jpg


It would instill a lot of confidence in the thing if they could line up some station funding and maybe get an architecture firm to design at the very least the main terminus stations in Tampa and/or Orlando. Maybe something like, oh.... I don't know... this new HOK Architects designed station in Anaheim?
ARTIC_Facility.jpg


Heck, it would be cool if Florida's system could just throw any type of sketches or renderings out there of anything. The Florida organization doesn't even have a livery planned for the trains, and instead are just using clip art from European and Asian systems on their amateurish website. :rolleyes: Those types of details are important in getting the public behind the plan, and either they don't realize that or are simply not yet at that stage in planning.

The California HSR livery is already a big hit with UCLA fans, but the Stanford and USC alums in the state may force the HSR Authority to reconsider this widely used livery for the trainsets. :lol:
california-highspeed-train-01.jpg
cahsr2.jpg


http://cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/

How much money has California spent on all those renderings, architectural drawings and computer simulations that have not moved a passanger 1 inch? Oh yeah, money grows on trees in the Golden State. My bad. :eek:
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
How much money has California spent on all those renderings, architectural drawings and computer simulations that have not moved a passanger 1 inch? Oh yeah, money grows on trees in the Golden State. My bad. :eek:
All of that is going to have to be done at some point.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Not nearly to the extent California has gone to. Loads of waste there but that is what they do best.

I can complain about Sacramento with the best of 'em! (As can most folks complain about the fools in Tallahassee, or Austin, or Albany, or...) But honestly, this is all stuff that has to be done for the Florida system at some point. The California High Speed Rail Authority has seen their budget ramp up dramatically in the last two years for planning and design, and these renderings are some of the outcome of that. In Fiscal 2009/10 they are budgeted to spend $140 Million on planning and design, mostly on the Palmdale to Fresno route in this current cycle.

Really, the Florida group is going to have to wean itself off of the German clip art sooner rather than later. :lol:

For the record, Anaheim has already secured $200 Million for their ARTIC station pictured above and below. It's a civic project completely unrelated to the funding for high-speed rail. It was funded by a smattering of local taxes and some grant money from the federal government. It's going to be a nice transit complex once it's finished, although the 200 Million only builds the station facility itself, just next door to Anaheim Stadium and down Katella from Disneyland. The current Anaheim train depot there is already maxed out on size and capacity with over two dozen Surfliner or Metrolink arrivals per day, so it's time has come regardless of the arrival of high speed rail there later this decade.

ARTIC - Anaheim, California
artic-3.jpg
 

_Scar

Active Member
Isn't California bankrupt atm?

Even in Florida, I'm starting to second-guess if NOW is the right time for a speed train.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Isn't California bankrupt atm?

No, not yet. If and when a state declares banktrupcy, we'll all know about it.

California has funded their HSR authority thus far with a mixture of bonds already bought and paid for ($9.5 Billion) and freebies handed out by the Feds ($2.5 Billion and counting).

It's probably never a good time to build big projects like this in any state, which is a big part of why they don't exist yet. :animwink:
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Not nearly to the extent California has gone to. Loads of waste there but that is what they do best.

Just a point of reference, lest folks think these California images are just pretty pictures comissioned at big expense just to look pretty.

These images are all of facilities that have been planned and or designed for major sections of the Phase One route. Some of the Environmental Impact Reports have even been filed for these images, which is generally the last hurdle required in the design and engineering phase.

This image, for example, is not just exotic and zippy, it's a real place. It's the Tehachapi Pass into the San Joaquin Valley north of Los Angeles. The trains will need to ascend and cross this pass, and great engineering work was required to determine if and where the train needed to pierce the pass via tunnel to get to the other side. The wind farm already exists there.
cahsr2.jpg


The Transbay Terminal in San Francisco already exists as an underground depot for BART subways and CalTrain commuter trains. HSR will expand the Transbay Terminal for additional platforms, which is no small feat in a city on an earthquake fault in a underground facility below sea level. Again, more engineering and planning needed, which helped result in this image of the new HSR platforms in the Transbay Terminal.
CA_High_Speed_Rail_Terminal.jpg


It's always fun to complain about government waste, and I'm sure there will be some doozies along the way with HSR, but really this stuff was and is neccesary for the legit planning and construction of the system.

It's just a bit odd that Florida hasn't released anything substantial when it comes to images or proposed facilities yet. You wonder what they are doing in the meetings, aside from promising little old ladies at community groups service to Sea World every 30 minutes. :confused:
 

Mick G.

New Member
Animators gotta eat!

Animation plays a huge role in making a project seem "real," and helping the public by into it. It can also explain the details of how a project will work, much more effectively than a verbal explanation. Much of this thread has been speculation on our parts about how this system will actually work, and animation could show us.

But maybe there isn't enough info for the animators to work from. Or maybe the Florida guys don't want to disclose too many details yet.

Mick
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member
But there are certainly applications for HSR that make more sense than air travel. Orlando to Tampa is just one of them.

Perhaps v. air travel. But how many people fly Orlando to Tampa. I still haven't heard a good argument for how there will be enough traffic to make it be anything other than a huge money pit. Driving seems the clear winner to me... everything is just way too spread out down here.

About the only thing that seems to make sense is MCO to Disney....

Edit:
MCO - Convention Center - Disney makes much more sense, but I didn't think Disney supported that alignment.
 

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