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Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal
- Thread starter disfan411
- Start date
Mustafa, I agree completely. European trains are great, and I would love to do more train travel there. The TGV through France was amazing. Service was a bit spotty due to a strike, but the trains were great, and the sensation at 200 mph was so smooth, it was hard to stay awake. The German ICE also looks awesome, not to mention the Orient Express, although I can imagine what the cost would be.
But like you said, "...if it is implemented well." I have traveled literally thousands of miles on Amtrak, and it's anything but well implemented. It's partly because we run passenger trains on freight lines, but it's also due to mismanagement and government-level inefficiency, along with all the happy attitude of your local post office [Sorry, any of you USPS folks out there - maybe it's just our local office that's grumpy.]. But I have had some seriously disappointing and aggravating Amtrak trips.
[I do hope to travel the Acela soon, and compare it to the TGV. The Acela isn't really high-speed, more mid-speed, but I'm curious to see how the service is, and how well-maintained the trains and stations are. And, it's a train -- I enjoy that part. But it's Amtrak -- that worries me.]
But even if the Disney Express is well run [maybe they could contract with Southwest, or Virgin], it's still going to take more total time for most Disney Guests to get from the airport to their resort. And when you have finally landed at Orlando International, minutes count.
Mick
TP2000
Well-Known Member
The point about train intervals is a very valid one. I think some folks here (who have little to no experience with train travel) think a high-speed train will be waiting for them just outside baggage claim at Orlando International to whisk them to their WDW Moderate Resort of choice. And if they miss the train sitting there, another one will be along in 10 minutes or so, just like a Monorail.
Um, no. That's not how it works. :lol:
A high-speed train will be leaving ORD every couple of hours, not every 10 minutes.
And then there's the miserable capacity of each train, compared to a fleet of Magical Express buses. Since each high-speed train will only seat around 350 to 400 people in a two-class setup, it would only take a handful of the hundreds of flights per day coming in to ORD to snap up all the seats on the trains. Heck, two Virgin America Airbus A-340's or a couple of British Airways 747's would fill several train departures from MCO.
Orlando International Airport has over 800 flights per day, with an average of 90,000 people using the airport each day. A dozen high-speed rail departures each day could carry 4,800 of those 90,000 people, with every seat filled.
This high-speed rail proposal would work for Tampa residents wanting to vacation at WDW without driving their car there. But most everyone else isn't going to want to put up with the extra time and energy and hassle required to take the train from MCO to their WDW hotel. The Tampa resident demographic makes up a tiny percentage of the tens of millions of people that visit WDW each year. And even then, you aren't going to capture every Tampa Bay resident who vacations at WDW. Even if the service is comprehensive enough to allow a Tampa resident to buzz up to WDW for the day, thus creating a new market for day visitors, it's still not going to make a big impact. Or even an impact that could be measured against the tens of millions of other WDW visitors.
Um, no. That's not how it works. :lol:
A high-speed train will be leaving ORD every couple of hours, not every 10 minutes.
And then there's the miserable capacity of each train, compared to a fleet of Magical Express buses. Since each high-speed train will only seat around 350 to 400 people in a two-class setup, it would only take a handful of the hundreds of flights per day coming in to ORD to snap up all the seats on the trains. Heck, two Virgin America Airbus A-340's or a couple of British Airways 747's would fill several train departures from MCO.
Orlando International Airport has over 800 flights per day, with an average of 90,000 people using the airport each day. A dozen high-speed rail departures each day could carry 4,800 of those 90,000 people, with every seat filled.
This high-speed rail proposal would work for Tampa residents wanting to vacation at WDW without driving their car there. But most everyone else isn't going to want to put up with the extra time and energy and hassle required to take the train from MCO to their WDW hotel. The Tampa resident demographic makes up a tiny percentage of the tens of millions of people that visit WDW each year. And even then, you aren't going to capture every Tampa Bay resident who vacations at WDW. Even if the service is comprehensive enough to allow a Tampa resident to buzz up to WDW for the day, thus creating a new market for day visitors, it's still not going to make a big impact. Or even an impact that could be measured against the tens of millions of other WDW visitors.
jt04
Well-Known Member
Are you sure there won't be a shuttle train that goes from MCO to Convention Center to WDW and back again on a frequent interval while sharing the track with trains that are hourly express trains to Lakeland and Tampa? Just a thought.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Mick G, the Florida high speed train would be run by the state, not Amtrak.
Then the high speed trains would have to be slowed down to alow that traffic to operate. You just get another Acela, a train that could go fast but cannot because it does not have it's own rails.
"Mick G, the Florida high speed train would be run by the state, not Amtrak."
Thanks LazyBoy, that's bound to be an improvement. Didn't know that.
And I'm basing my ideas on how this service will run on what the Acela and TGV systems do, but this is all theoretical anyway. In the case of Disneyland Paris, it would be possible for the French Railways to dedicate a trainset to be a shuttle between the CDG airport station and the Disneyland station. I'm not sure why they don't, but there must be a reason.
In Florida, it would seem to make some sense to have a trainset or two that just shuttle between the airport and WDW, stopping at the Convention Center. That might solve some of the capacity and scheduling issues, if the planners think of it. And the tracks between the airport and WDW are going to have to be built through an area that is already heavily developed, which means lots of curves and stops that are pretty close together, so the trains probably won't be able to go full speed anyway. So maybe the shuttle train could be a different design, cheaper, slower, more suited to how it's going to be used.
Mick
Thanks LazyBoy, that's bound to be an improvement. Didn't know that.
And I'm basing my ideas on how this service will run on what the Acela and TGV systems do, but this is all theoretical anyway. In the case of Disneyland Paris, it would be possible for the French Railways to dedicate a trainset to be a shuttle between the CDG airport station and the Disneyland station. I'm not sure why they don't, but there must be a reason.
In Florida, it would seem to make some sense to have a trainset or two that just shuttle between the airport and WDW, stopping at the Convention Center. That might solve some of the capacity and scheduling issues, if the planners think of it. And the tracks between the airport and WDW are going to have to be built through an area that is already heavily developed, which means lots of curves and stops that are pretty close together, so the trains probably won't be able to go full speed anyway. So maybe the shuttle train could be a different design, cheaper, slower, more suited to how it's going to be used.
Mick
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The reason you cannot just run a shuttle is because you would have to get it out of the way any time one of the real high speed trains came through. So you would either have to stop service, build another line for the shuttle to use, or end up with an Acela situation, where the high speed train is not going very fast.
The reason France does not run a TGV between Charles de Gaulle and Disneyland Paris is because you can just take the RER B Line to Châtelet Les Halles and transfer to the RER A4 to Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy, the Disneyland station.
I think it can be done if the schedule is worked out in a way that the shuttle fits in with the high speed train. There is one highspeed rail link in Germany (Munich-Nuremberg) which shares the track with local trains and it works pretty well. It is also more economical and has made the local trains much more in demand because they are faster now as well. The high speed train always has priority, so sometimes the local train will have to wait in a station for the high speed train to pass it.
And I think the reason why there isn't a TGV shuttle form CDG to DLP is that there isn't that much demand for travellers going directly from the airport to DLP. There is a shuttle bus (which is actually faster than the RER if I remember correctly) and this only runs every 30 minutes or so.
cmatt
Active Member
Erm - the Edinburgh to London trains operate every 30 minutes.... as does eurostar.
I would imagine the train companies involved would work out peak times and adjust the schedule accordingly. With perhaps a slower service in place when there are less flights coming into orlando.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
That's an entirely different setup than what is proposed to be built in Florida, or anywhere else in the USA. There's nothing in any of the documentation on the official Florida website that mentions anything about "shuttle trains" running local routes between Orlando and WDW. http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org
Not to mention, it would require the additional purchase of extra trainsets to run this bizarre WDW shuttle operation. And I'm not sure that taxpayers would want to subsidize a multi-Billion dollar train to shuttle people to and from Disney World. The Magical Express bus operation does that quite nicely now, right to their actual hotels, without massive Billion dollar subsidies from the gub'ment.
If there was such a setup; basically an exclusive shuttle operation serving MCO and WDW, it would be the 21st century version of those $500 toilet seats infamously purchased by the Pentagon back in the 1980's. I can just hear the howls from people upset they were subdizing a fancy train for Disney.
Every piece of information I've read about Florida High Speed Rail has them aiming for about a dozen trains per day between Tampa and Orlando. And there's no guarantee they can fill the seats on those runs as it is.
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Yes, but the trains in Great Britain are serving a relatively compact country of 62 Million people. And the UK has had regular train service serving all major cities for decades, often at great federal subsidy. In a nation that has 465 cars per 1000 citizens (the UK), compared to 775 cars per 1000 citizens in the USA.
The Tampa Bay and Orlando greater metro areas have a combined population of 6 Million people. And there are currently just two trains per day serving those two cities, the Silver Star in late morning and the Silver Meteor in early afternoon. It will be a great struggle to get a dozen trains per day even half-full, let alone full enough to ramp up to departures every 30 minutes, if that ever happens at all anywhere in the USA.
Southern California has the excellent Surfliner train service running through a dense megalopolis of 25 Million people from Santa Barbara to San Diego. And there are a dozen Surfliner trains per day serving that route, with a station in Anaheim near Disneyland. But even in relatively population-dense SoCal, the California high-speed rail system will be replacing at least several of those Surfliner trips with the half dozen or so daily high-speed trains the system will debut with later this decade.
In short, it would be no more fair to compare train usage in the United Kingdom to Florida as it would be to compare working alligator farms in Florida to those in the UK. They are two completely different cultures and demographic environments that really have little in common, and thus can't be held to each others standard.
toolsnspools
Well-Known Member
Europeans are used to riding in trains, and Americans are used to riding in cars. Because of that, we tend to make our train networks integrate with our car networks. It never has been, never will be a workable solution. Why would I park my car and wait an hour to take a 20-60 minute train ride?
As for traffic from MCO to WDW, if I recall correctly, Disney investigated the possibility of HSR back before they contracted DME, and the DME solution was far cheaper and more efficient. This is from a company who has been running trains and monorails for half a century, and knows the cost associated with doing it.
If I had to guess, I'd say WDW dropping the DME was part of the agreement to them getting a station. That means we will no longer have an option of taking the DME, and instead we'll need to buy tickets on the HSR, take a taxi, or rent cars. Like Mick said, the "on-demand" taxi ride is about the same price as the HSR. I might take the rail once for the experience, or if it happens to fit my schedule, but that would be about it. After all, $100 each way for my family of 5 is about the same cost as having a rental car for the entire week.
As for traffic from MCO to WDW, if I recall correctly, Disney investigated the possibility of HSR back before they contracted DME, and the DME solution was far cheaper and more efficient. This is from a company who has been running trains and monorails for half a century, and knows the cost associated with doing it.
If I had to guess, I'd say WDW dropping the DME was part of the agreement to them getting a station. That means we will no longer have an option of taking the DME, and instead we'll need to buy tickets on the HSR, take a taxi, or rent cars. Like Mick said, the "on-demand" taxi ride is about the same price as the HSR. I might take the rail once for the experience, or if it happens to fit my schedule, but that would be about it. After all, $100 each way for my family of 5 is about the same cost as having a rental car for the entire week.
jt04
Well-Known Member
See the post above (#139) for information on how this works. I believe it is a rather common practice in Europe where Inter City Express trains share tracks with local ones. As the poster says, it is all about scheduling. It does not need substantially more infastructure. A rather frequent train from MCO to WDW and back would be the bread and butter of such a system. It will only "work" if it replaces the Disney shuttle buses eventually. The tax payer gets the benefit of far less traffic on I-4. I mean if these expensive trains can't provide some substantial quality of life improvements then what is the point of building them in the first place?
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
The trains will be run by the state of Florida, not private companies. If any private companies are involved it will be freight lines because the state is stuck using their track (like Amtrak).
A big criticism of pretty much every high speed rail plan is that they fail to connect to a larger transportation system. People are being sold on the flash of a cool high speed train, not the nitty gritty of also needing a serious mass transit system to make it work in any sort of real way.
jt04
Well-Known Member
I'll be shocked if some sort of Disney shuttle sysem is not included. With only 12 trains or so going to Tampa daily that will mean train track will be unused for a substantial time each day. My guess is that time will be used to run a shuttle system to WDW and back to MCO.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Too much traffic and you decrease the physical spacing between each train, thus decreasing the speed at which each train can operate.
Kamikaze
Well-Known Member
Prepare to be shocked.
OK, some random thoughts:
- The State of Florida will run the trains... What experience do they have with this sort of thing? What has the State of Florida done well? Floridians might want to chime in.
- Perhaps the State could contract with a company that has 50 years of transportation experience, and who just hired an executive from San Francisco to manage their internal transit systems. Hmm, who would that company be?
- I was on a TGV that stopped at CDG [Paris Airport], and then the Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy station about 20 minutes later. Maybe they don't sell tickets for just that portion of the trip, or maybe they are more expensive than the RER. I need to go back and do more research ;^)
- Regarding different speed trains on the same track, I recall being in the UK, traveling from Bath to London, and there were 3 different trains, with 3 different travel times. By waiting a little longer for the third train, which was an Intercity 125 [Like a diesel-powered Acela], we actually arrived in London before either of the other 2 trains that left earlier, passing them along the way. The Acela operates the same way, with regional trains on the same line. And the speed issues with Acela are because of track conditions, mostly curves and old bridges, not because of traffic, usually.
Bottom line, it appears the Florida HS train will be:
- more expensive than the Magical Express
- about the same cost as a cab for a family of 4
- will require transfer to WDW transportation at the WDW station
- will take more time overall to get you to your resort than any other option
- will cost the taxpayers [Florida and Federal] a large amount of money, probably ongoing
- will probably be fun to ride. Which I will. At least once.
Back to work. Hi ho...
Mick
- The State of Florida will run the trains... What experience do they have with this sort of thing? What has the State of Florida done well? Floridians might want to chime in.
- Perhaps the State could contract with a company that has 50 years of transportation experience, and who just hired an executive from San Francisco to manage their internal transit systems. Hmm, who would that company be?
- I was on a TGV that stopped at CDG [Paris Airport], and then the Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy station about 20 minutes later. Maybe they don't sell tickets for just that portion of the trip, or maybe they are more expensive than the RER. I need to go back and do more research ;^)
- Regarding different speed trains on the same track, I recall being in the UK, traveling from Bath to London, and there were 3 different trains, with 3 different travel times. By waiting a little longer for the third train, which was an Intercity 125 [Like a diesel-powered Acela], we actually arrived in London before either of the other 2 trains that left earlier, passing them along the way. The Acela operates the same way, with regional trains on the same line. And the speed issues with Acela are because of track conditions, mostly curves and old bridges, not because of traffic, usually.
Bottom line, it appears the Florida HS train will be:
- more expensive than the Magical Express
- about the same cost as a cab for a family of 4
- will require transfer to WDW transportation at the WDW station
- will take more time overall to get you to your resort than any other option
- will cost the taxpayers [Florida and Federal] a large amount of money, probably ongoing
- will probably be fun to ride. Which I will. At least once.
Back to work. Hi ho...
Mick