Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

[jt04]

Perhaps v. air travel. But how many people fly Orlando to Tampa. I still haven't heard a good argument for how there will be enough traffic to make it be anything other than a huge money pit. Driving seems the clear winner to me... everything is just way too spread out down here.

About the only thing that seems to make sense is MCO to Disney....

Edit:
MCO - Convention Center - Disney makes much more sense, but I didn't think Disney supported that alignment.

That is the point. It is not practical to fly from Tampa to Orlando. But driving isn't much of an option either and I-4 will only get worse as the population increases. It has already been widened once and is getting crowded again. HSR is a viable option due to the Orlando area attractions. It also offers more competition for the passenger air travel by giving consumers more options. Disney is now "on board" for a rail system. It will make it easier for guests to leave the property but it will also make it easier for folks from other resorts to travel to WDW. I personally think that if it is done right, it will draw tourists to Orlando in greater numbers and everyone wins then.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That is the point. It is not practical to fly from Tampa to Orlando. But driving isn't much of an option either and I-4 will only get worse as the population increases. It has already been widened once and is getting crowded again. HSR is a viable option due to the Orlando area attractions. It also offers more competition for the passenger air travel by giving consumers more options. Disney is now "on board" for a rail system. It will make it easier for guests to leave the property but it will also make it easier for folks from other resorts to travel to WDW. I personally think that if it is done right, it will draw tourists to Orlando in greater numbers and everyone wins then.

That all seems to justify investment in local mass transit, not a high speed rail system. I doubt much of the tourist traffic is coming from south of Orlando. Ticket prices on a high speed train would have to be cheaper to fly into the other airport and take the train than the cost of flying straight to your final destination or renting a car and driving. Everything you suggest is dependent on there being some very cheap tickets available, all of which will require subsidization to offset. I cannot see the Florida tax payers being so happy about spending money on the tourists getting a cheaper ride.

 

[TP2000]

It is not practical to fly from Tampa to Orlando. But driving isn't much of an option either and I-4 will only get worse as the population increases. It has already been widened once and is getting crowded again. H.

Could you expand on your suggestion that I-4 isn't an option? It looks like an existing option to me.

 

[jt04]

That all seems to justify investment in local mass transit, not a high speed rail system. I doubt much of the tourist traffic is coming from south of Orlando. Ticket prices on a high speed train would have to be cheaper to fly into the other airport and take the train than the cost of flying straight to your final destination or renting a car and driving. Everything you suggest is dependent on there being some very cheap tickets available, all of which will require subsidization to offset. I cannot see the Florida tax payers being so happy about spending money on the tourists getting a cheaper ride.

Florida tax payers get the benefit of less highway maintenance, less traffic congestion, easier commutes, less pollution, less need for highway expansions and most important, fewer accidents and therefore fewer highway deaths.

I'm convinced that the train will be cheaper than a flight between Tampa and Orlando and much faster with everything considered. Also, depending on where a traveler is traveling to/from, Tampa and the train to Orlando may very well be cheaper and vice versa. This phenomenon is seen in places where high speed rail compliments air travel. You should travel some in Europe to get an idea how rail and air can work hand in hand.

Could you expand on your suggestion that I-4 isn't an option? It looks like an existing option to me.

And I-5 is an option between LA and SF. However it may not be the best option in many people's eyes if HSR existed.


Edit. I had to go to the web site to access the pic you were posting. Yep I-4 is too often imitating a parking lot. Imagine sitting there and then seeing a train pass at 125 miles per hour. Think it might motivate a few folks to buy a train ticket to Orlando?

 

[wm49rs]

And I-5 is an option between LA and SF. However it may not be the best option in many people's eyes if HSR existed.

Plenty of people traveling from Washington to Baltimore, Philadelphia or New York who could view I-95 as a viable route too. But the Acela is a much more attractive option for plenty, and I guarantee their vehicles not being on the road are appreciated.

 

[JEANYLASER]

that pictures looks awesome!

 

[TP2000]

And I-5 is an option between LA and SF. However it may not be the best option in many people's eyes if HSR existed.

Edit. I had to go to the web site to access the pic you were posting. Yep I-4 is too often imitating a parking lot. Imagine sitting there and then seeing a train pass at 125 miles per hour. Think it might motivate a few folks to buy a train ticket to Orlando?

It's over 400 miles from Anaheim to San Francisco, the Phase One of the California HSR, and it takes a good seven hours to drive it going 75MPH with a couple potty breaks and an In N' Out Burger stop.

Most people with a little disposable income who need to get from SoCal to NorCal fly on one of the 100+ daily nonstop flights from LA metro airports (LAX, Burbank, Long Beach, Ontario, or Orange County) to Bay Area airports (San Francisco, Oakland, or San Jose) for about $50 each way.

It's only 70 miles from Tampa to Walt Disney World, and it's 85 miles from Tampa to MCO.

A quick check on Expedia confirmed my suspicion that there is not a single scheduled flight between Tampa and Orlando. If someone wants to fly between Tampa and Orlando they have to fly first to Atlanta or Charlotte or Miami, and then catch a connecting flight back to central Florida.

Clearly a market for air travel between Tampa and Orlando does not exist, so you have to wonder who the Florida HSR will be competing against? Is it only I-4?

 

[TimeTrip]

Edit. I had to go to the web site to access the pic you were posting. Yep I-4 is too often imitating a parking lot. Imagine sitting there and then seeing a train pass at 125 miles per hour. Think it might motivate a few folks to buy a train ticket to Orlando?

For the ride from tampa to orlando? Maybe if they lived right by a train station and their destination was right at a station. I don't imagine that's the case for the amount of people the system would need to keep it from being a money pit.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Florida tax payers get the benefit of less highway maintenance, less traffic congestion, easier commutes, less pollution, less need for highway expansions and most important, fewer accidents and therefore fewer highway deaths.

But why does this have to be achieved via the most expensive form of rail out there? If the big money is going to come from tourists being moved around then there are cheaper means to the same end.

I'm convinced that the train will be cheaper than a flight between Tampa and Orlando and much faster with everything considered. Also, depending on where a traveler is traveling to/from, Tampa and the train to Orlando may very well be cheaper and vice versa. This phenomenon is seen in places where high speed rail compliments air travel. You should travel some in Europe to get an idea how rail and air can work hand in hand.

Can you even find a listing for flights from Tampa to Orlando? TP2000 cannot. I have been Europe and I travelled via rail. Including high speed. That, however, is irrelevant to knowing the costs, as tickets can be purchased online and I have already posted price comparisons to the TGV in the past.

Just looking at some guesses, it appears that trip from airport to Disney is about the same in Florida as it is in France. A family of four (two adults and two children 4-11), going from Charles de Gaulle to Marne-la-Vallée will pay a minimum of $72.00 for economy class tickets. A taxi can be had for about the same price, if not a little cheaper. A taxi is not on a fixed schedule and will take the family straight to their hotel. The train operates on a fixed schedule and does not drop one off at the door. Even if Disney offers a baggage service, not every other hotel and park in the area is going to follow.

And I-5 is an option between LA and SF. However it may not be the best option in many people's eyes if HSR existed.

That is a significantly longer drive. Also, people such as yourself keep talking about all of the great stops that could be made along the way. The more stops means the longer the travel time, and a lot of scenarios are looking like renting a car (between Orlando and Tampa) or even a cab (Orlando area attractions) would cost a similar amount while offering the convenience of getting you straight to your destination.

 

[jt04]

It's over 400 miles from Anaheim to San Francisco, the Phase One of the California HSR, and it takes a good seven hours to drive it going 75MPH with a couple potty breaks and an In N' Out Burger stop.

Most people with a little disposable income who need to get from SoCal to NorCal fly on one of the 100+ daily nonstop flights from LA metro airports (LAX, Burbank, Long Beach, Ontario, or Orange County) to Bay Area airports (San Francisco, Oakland, or San Jose) for about $50 each way.

It's only 70 miles from Tampa to Walt Disney World, and it's 85 miles from Tampa to MCO.

A quick check on Expedia confirmed my suspicion that there is not a single scheduled flight between Tampa and Orlando. If someone wants to fly between Tampa and Orlando they have to fly first to Atlanta or Charlotte or Miami, and then catch a connecting flight back to central Florida.

Clearly a market for air travel between Tampa and Orlando does not exist, so you have to wonder who the Florida HSR will be competing against? Is it only I-4?

Yes and long range segways.

For the ride from tampa to orlando? Maybe if they lived right by a train station and their destination was right at a station. I don't imagine that's the case for the amount of people the system would need to keep it from being a money pit.

The HSR would only be a backbone. Once built it will evolve to include other transit systems. Ideally funded by the private sector (one can dream). We won't know unless a prototype is built and tested. My guess is it can and will succeed in this application but HSR will stand or fall on a case by case basis.

But why does this have to be achieved via the most expensive form of rail out there? If the big money is going to come from tourists being moved around then there are cheaper means to the same end.

Do tell. :shrug: I've used similar systems in other parts of the world. It can work. Again on a case by case basis.


Can you even find a listing for flights from Tampa to Orlando? TP2000 cannot. I have been Europe and I travelled via rail. Including high speed. That, however, is irrelevant to knowing the costs, as tickets can be purchased online and I have already posted price comparisons to the TGV in the past.

As I've said, Tampa to MCO makes no sense for air travel which is why HSR is a great alternative IMO. Of course there are always charter planes. Price that. :lol:




That is a significantly longer drive. Also, people such as yourself keep talking about all of the great stops that could be made along the way. The more stops means the longer the travel time, and a lot of scenarios are looking like renting a car (between Orlando and Tampa) or even a cab (Orlando area attractions) would cost a similar amount while offering the convenience of getting you straight to your destination.

No. I would think the HSR would be an hourly express option that would bypass the Convention Center and WDW. Probably only stopping in LLakeland and then Tampa Airport. I believe a local shuttle using the same tracks will be needed the rest of the time but it could still reach decent speeds. The technology is quite amazing. If it proved too successful they can add parallel lines so the shuttle and HSR could work without coordinating. It is very feasible.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The HSR would only be a backbone. Once built it will evolve to include other transit systems. Ideally funded by the private sector (one can dream). We won't know unless a prototype is built and tested. My guess is it can and will succeed in this application but HSR will stand or fall on a case by case basis.

High speed rail is not a backbone. Its heavy subsidies in those years before more is built are when it will cost the most to subsidize and generate ill will not only towards high speed rail, but also the connecting systems.

Do tell. I've used similar systems in other parts of the world. It can work. Again on a case by case basis.

The cheapest alternative would be buses. Then there is also light rail, which could connect Orlando. Even commuter heavy rail could connect more distant parts of the area.

As I've said, Tampa to MCO makes no sense for air travel which is why HSR is a great alternative IMO. Of course there are always charter planes. Price that.

It only makes sense after there is easy transit to and from each station to a rider's final destination. A train from Gare TGV Haute-Picardie to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport (67.7 miles by car) costs one adult a minimum of $35.00. A car with a 10 gallon tank, that only gets 10 miles to the gallon, at gas being $3.00/gallon would still be a cheaper alternative and give one the freedom to move about the Orlando or Tampa areas.

 

[jt04]

High speed rail is not a backbone. Its heavy subsidies in those years before more is built are when it will cost the most to subsidize and generate ill will not only towards high speed rail, but also the connecting systems.


The cheapest alternative would be buses. Then there is also light rail, which could connect Orlando. Even commuter heavy rail could connect more distant parts of the area.


It only makes sense after there is easy transit to and from each station to a rider's final destination. A train from Gare TGV Haute-Picardie to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport (67.7 miles by car) costs one adult a minimum of $35.00. A car with a 10 gallon tank, that only gets 10 miles to the gallon, at gas being $3.00/gallon would still be a cheaper alternative and give one the freedom to move about the Orlando or Tampa areas.

I guess my perspective is we should build the system and see how it evolves from there rather than spending billions here and there around the country and finding out in the long run it was all a waste. We need a prototype. Tampa/Orlando is ideal.

 

[TP2000]

I guess my perspective is we should build the system and see how it evolves from there rather than spending billions here and there around the country and finding out in the long run it was all a waste. We need a prototype. Tampa/Orlando is ideal.

I do agree with you there; Tampa-Orlando is a short route on flat land that for the majority of the trip has very few things in the way of the tracks. You should see the eminent domain cases the California team is struggling with just to get the train from Anaheim to Los Angeles! The Bay Area route is also facing similar struggles through the affluent suburbs around Stanford (which is richly ironic from a political standpoint). With only five planned stations in wide open spaces, Florida HSR will be an easy thing to get rolling, in theory.

But the obstacles are that central Florida has not embraced rail transportation in any meaningful way, and there is no real precedence set for it. And most interestingly, the Tampa-Orlando commuter market is so small that no scheduled airline has even attempted to fly a small 50 seat regional jet or turboprop back and forth once or twice a day to make a few bucks off of that market. There are only two Amtrak trains per day between the two cities, part of the long distance Silver Star or Silver Meteor service up and down the Eastern Seaboard. Judging from the small and sad conditions of the Tampa and Orlando Amtrak stations, the passenger numbers on the Tampa-Orlando route are not big.

The danger is that Florida HSR builds this line because it's cheap and easy to do, and a week after opening day when the mayors and marching bands go away it starts sending empty trains back and forth because there's no market for the thing. Then it's held up around the country as an example of government waste and pork, and Tallahassee suddenly has a political hot potato on their hands over how they are going to subsidize the daily operation for the next 50 years.

But the fact remains, there is still a great deal of work to do on the plan. Some station renderings would be nice to see. Particularly the WDW station on Disney property.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But the fact remains, there is still a great deal of work to do on the plan. Some station renderings would be nice to see. Particularly the WDW station on Disney property.

Which Disney should not de-annex from Reedy Creek and maintain some control over its continued daily appearance. Gare de Marne-la-Vallée – Chessy is an awful first impression of Disneyland Paris.

 

[JEANYLASER]

thanks for the info!

 

[jt04]

I do agree with you there; Tampa-Orlando is a short route on flat land that for the majority of the trip has very few things in the way of the tracks. You should see the eminent domain cases the California team is struggling with just to get the train from Anaheim to Los Angeles! The Bay Area route is also facing similar struggles through the affluent suburbs around Stanford (which is richly ironic from a political standpoint). With only five planned stations in wide open spaces, Florida HSR will be an easy thing to get rolling, in theory.

But the obstacles are that central Florida has not embraced rail transportation in any meaningful way, and there is no real precedence set for it. And most interestingly, the Tampa-Orlando commuter market is so small that no scheduled airline has even attempted to fly a small 50 seat regional jet or turboprop back and forth once or twice a day to make a few bucks off of that market. There are only two Amtrak trains per day between the two cities, part of the long distance Silver Star or Silver Meteor service up and down the Eastern Seaboard. Judging from the small and sad conditions of the Tampa and Orlando Amtrak stations, the passenger numbers on the Tampa-Orlando route are not big.

The danger is that Florida HSR builds this line because it's cheap and easy to do, and a week after opening day when the mayors and marching bands go away it starts sending empty trains back and forth because there's no market for the thing. Then it's held up around the country as an example of government waste and pork, and Tallahassee suddenly has a political hot potato on their hands over how they are going to subsidize the daily operation for the next 50 years.

But the fact remains, there is still a great deal of work to do on the plan. Some station renderings would be nice to see. Particularly the WDW station on Disney property.

Very good points all but I see it a bit different. Yes, it has not made sense for an established air route between Tampa and Orlando because I-4 made the trip relatively easy by car or bus. But things have changed and central Florida will continue to boom long term. So if you look at the situation 5, 10 or 20 years from now, a real alternative to I-4 is needed. Disney needs to look at this project in the same light. Anything that will benefit travel to and from the area is a great long term investment. Now I know that Orlando and Tampa's populations don't necessarily demand the kind of investment we are talking about here but that will not be the case in the near future. And the fact that Orlando is and will continue to be the number 1 tourist destination in the world reduces most of the risk. I can wait on Imagineering station designs etc. That is getting the train ahead of the locomotive so to speak. If they wait to build they will only encounter more of the domain issues you refer to. Now is the time...now is the best time. Sorry :lookaroun

Oh, and I can't let the Sanford thing go without comment. The progressives demand society bow to their schemes but they are the biggest NIMBYs out there. The same hypocrisy is happening in Mass. with the proposed wind farm off Cape Cod. And is there a more discusting hypocrite than Decaprio? (it is a rhetorical question, I know the answer is no) I'm no greenie but HSR can be a great benefit in the right situations IMO.

 

[JEANYLASER]

I wanted to know is where is the finished station will look like! Can any one has some pictures?

 

[lazyboy97o]

I can wait on Imagineering station designs etc. That is getting the train ahead of the locomotive so to speak. If they wait to build they will only encounter more of the domain issues you refer to. Now is the time...now is the best time. Sorry :lookaroun

Doing design work means things have moved along beyond the stages of vague ideas.

 

[Mick G.]

Imagineering probably won't be designing the station -- Their domain is within the parks, primarily. The design would probably be handled by an outside design firm, like the WDW hotels.

I would hope that the new station would have some degree of detailing and "whimsey", more like the Casting Building than TTC.

Mick

 

[jt04]

Imagineering probably won't be designing the station -- Their domain is within the parks, primarily. The design would probably be handled by an outside design firm, like the WDW hotels.

I would hope that the new station would have some degree of detailing and "whimsey", more like the Casting Building than TTC.

Mick

Personally I'd like to see them go in the opposite direction. I'm no architectual expert obviously but I'd like to see them go in a different directin. There is an offshoot of Art Deco that was specific to Florida. Somewhat similar to the entrance of DHS especially around guest services. Not the Miami Beach version. It was used widely in municiple buildings and I think its simple lines and nostalgia might work very well. Perhaps some experts out there can better explain the style I am refering to.