Disney gets on board with fast-train proposal

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
I find it funny that the same people that want high speed rail are same poeple that do not want to build a roads because they effect on the enviroment. If all the money that this nation has wasted on all the underused rail projects for construction of better and more roads are interstate highway system could continue to add new roads and not just new lanes to existing roads. The USA is so large that high speed, low speed, any speed rail is not going to work. Airline travel is always going to be the high speed travel in the USA. I ask anyone to find a county that even comes close to the daily air travel in the USA.
 

Pete C

Active Member
Personally I'd like to see them go in the opposite direction. I'm no architectual expert obviously but I'd like to see them go in a different directin. There is an offshoot of Art Deco that was specific to Florida. Somewhat similar to the entrance of DHS especially around guest services. Not the Miami Beach version. It was used widely in municiple buildings and I think its simple lines and nostalgia might work very well. Perhaps some experts out there can better explain the style I am refering to.

I love Disney's use of art deco at DHS...I am a huge fan of the style and that is exactly what I was thinking would be good for this station. Though, I didn't know any style of art deco outside of Miami was specific to Florida. There are a few more art deco buildings visible around I-4 near Disney that I believe are theirs as well, though I don't know what purpose they serve. Downtown Orlando has a few examples of art deco in some of the old buildings and new condos in Thornton Park.
 

MichWolv

Born Modest. Wore Off.
Premium Member
Which Disney should not de-annex from Reedy Creek and maintain some control over its continued daily appearance. Gare de Marne-la-Vallée – Chessy is an awful first impression of Disneyland Paris.

Granted the station looks like....a train station, I guess, but having it mere yards (or meters, if you like) from the park gates is incredible. And once you're outside the station for about 30 seconds, everyhing looks like Disney. Give me a train from the airport to the TTC (or Epcot, or DtD, or some new Disney transport hub), and I won't complain that the station is ugly.

I find it funny that the same people that want high speed rail are same poeple that do not want to build a roads because they effect on the enviroment. If all the money that this nation has wasted on all the underused rail projects for construction of better and more roads are interstate highway system could continue to add new roads and not just new lanes to existing roads. The USA is so large that high speed, low speed, any speed rail is not going to work. Airline travel is always going to be the high speed travel in the USA. I ask anyone to find a county that even comes close to the daily air travel in the USA.

No country does come close to the daily air travel, but I disagree about the potential for high-speed rail. When I lived in DC, I often had to go to New York for meetings. Even with the only semi-high speed rail between Boston and DC, the train was quicker and easier. I could leave my office and be in mid-town Manhattan in just over 3 hours. I could match that on a plane as long as there were no significant delays, but it would be a heckuva lot more annoying, what with the security checks, middle seats, and other annoyance of air travel. True high-speed service would have cut the train trip just below 2 hours, and nobody would ever fly between DC and NY. High-speed trains between Chicago and Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinnati and Cleveland, LA and Las Vegas, Phoenix and the Bay Area, Dallas, Houston and San Antonio, and other clusters of cities should also be successful because the train, all-in, would be quicker than a plane. I agree that such benefit disappears once the train ride exceeds about 3.5 hours, so a national high-speed train network doesn't seem to me like it would be a worthwhile thing, but there are probably about 8 or 10 regional networks that could work quite well.

That said, I agree with others that Orlando to Tampa, despite being cheap to build, may not have the demand to be a good test market.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I find it funny that the same people that want high speed rail are same poeple that do not want to build a roads because they effect on the enviroment. If all the money that this nation has wasted on all the underused rail projects for construction of better and more roads are interstate highway system could continue to add new roads and not just new lanes to existing roads. The USA is so large that high speed, low speed, any speed rail is not going to work. Airline travel is always going to be the high speed travel in the USA. I ask anyone to find a county that even comes close to the daily air travel in the USA.

I'm pretty sure we will never see a nationwide network for HSR. But there are areas where a HSR system can compliment air travel and make travel more effeicient for all. Tampa/Orlando is a perfect example. Some others Miami/Orlando, Colo. Springs/Denver/Denver Airport, Houston/Dallas/Ft Worth/San Antonio, Seattle/Portland, LA/SF, Chicago/St Louis, and Washington/Baltimore/Philly/New York.

I love Disney's use of art deco at DHS...I am a huge fan of the style and that is exactly what I was thinking would be good for this station. Though, I didn't know any style of art deco outside of Miami was specific to Florida. There are a few more art deco buildings visible around I-4 near Disney that I believe are theirs as well, though I don't know what purpose they serve. Downtown Orlando has a few examples of art deco in some of the old buildings and new condos in Thornton Park.

I think they used the style I'm talking about in the Miami Vice show for their offices. Great structual style but painted a hideous color for the show:hurl:. The old Miami City Hall/Convention Center area also was this style I think. Actually they may still use that building. Not sure. :shrug:

EDIT-- Yes here is an example. Wow, I have a photographic memory or something. People's knee jerk reaction will be "WHAT?", but I'm just referring to the lines and simple beauty of this style. It would have to be much more "trainstationey".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Miami_city_hall.jpg
 

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
Please make sure you add additional time to your rail travel for security checks. The TSA is already looking at adding airport type checks to all intercity rail travel. Where there is a way for a government agency to grow, it will.

I have no problem with rail travel, if the travelers pay the cost; but I can not think of even one rail system in the US that pays it way without government money.

The highway system is the only transprotation system in the US that pay their own way. I know you will say that roads are funded by the government, but what is true is that I pay a "toll" every time a gas up at the pump, buy tires, etc. More taxes are collected at the gas pump than goes into our road systems.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I find it funny that the same people that want high speed rail are same poeple that do not want to build a roads because they effect on the enviroment. If all the money that this nation has wasted on all the underused rail projects for construction of better and more roads are interstate highway system could continue to add new roads and not just new lanes to existing roads. The USA is so large that high speed, low speed, any speed rail is not going to work. Airline travel is always going to be the high speed travel in the USA. I ask anyone to find a county that even comes close to the daily air travel in the USA.
The problem is that building more roads does, in a good many of cases, just cause traffic to increase more. It happened to New York City throughout the 1960s, they would build a new highway or bridge to alleviate congestion on one, but both would end up congested almost immediately.

Granted the station looks like....a train station, I guess, but having it mere yards (or meters, if you like) from the park gates is incredible. And once you're outside the station for about 30 seconds, everyhing looks like Disney. Give me a train from the airport to the TTC (or Epcot, or DtD, or some new Disney transport hub), and I won't complain that the station is ugly.
It was not so much the design, but the filth.

The highway system is the only transprotation system in the US that pay their own way. I know you will say that roads are funded by the government, but what is true is that I pay a "toll" every time a gas up at the pump, buy tires, etc. More taxes are collected at the gas pump than goes into our road systems.
While there are taxes on motor vehicles and their accessories, that is not the only source of funding for roads.
 

CDavid

Well-Known Member
The highway system is the only transprotation system in the US that pay their own way. I know you will say that roads are funded by the government, but what is true is that I pay a "toll" every time a gas up at the pump, buy tires, etc. More taxes are collected at the gas pump than goes into our road systems.

False. More money is spent on maintaining roads than is collected by the gas tax (or user fee, but if your car doesn't use gas...). Some of the tax on gasoline is allocated for non-road uses, but cities and states fund roads too, and even at this elevated level of funding the nations transportation infrastructure continues to crumble. Then there are intangible costs such as law enforcement, plowing snow, and other work which increases the more miles of highway you have to maintain.

Roads do not pay their own way; All modes of transportation are subsidized.

The USA is so large that high speed, low speed, any speed rail is not going to work.

That's essentially a myth. While the nation is certainly larger than European comparisons, the average trip distance by passengers is similar to foreign examples (varies by route, train type, etc., but even on trains going over 2,000 miles from Chicago to California, the average distance travelled may be little more than the 300-400 miles of regional or corridor trains).

I have no problem with rail travel, if the travelers pay the cost; but I can not think of even one rail system in the US that pays it way without government money.

No passenger railway in the world operates without a subsidy. None. Of course, as has been demonstrated neither do roads or air travel, but that's not the point anyway. The objective of public transportation is providing a (transport) service to the public, not earning money for stockholders.

The problem is that building more roads does, in a good many of cases, just cause traffic to increase more. It happened to New York City throughout the 1960s, they would build a new highway or bridge to alleviate congestion on one, but both would end up congested almost immediately.

Exactly correct. You literally cannot build enough roads (or lanes) to keep up with demand. This just makes the greater efficiency, safety, and mujch higher capacity of passenger rail look all the more attractive.
 

DVCOwner

A Long Time DVC Member
I have to disagree with you on highway road funding in the US. If what use what was called the "Highway Trust Fund', plus all the taxes (State and Local) that are charged on highway related items (fuel, tires, batteries, etc.) and taxes paid on vehicles and vehicle tags; there would be more than enough money to pay for exisiting highways and new construction. The problem is that all mass transit in the US continues to pull money away from highway projects. Recently the US governement estamate that only 25 cents of every dollar spent on the operation and maintenance of mass transit buses in the US comes from fares. The rest comes from other taxes (mostly highway related). Rail is even worst if you include construction cost.

The problem in the US is that we are not building new roads at the rate of population growth. Due to many reasons, high property values, enviromental issues, court battles, etc. the best most areas have been able to do is add addition lanes to traffic. Why can we not build roads that are not over use the day they open is that we are 25 - 30 years behind in road contruction.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
I do agree with you there; Tampa-Orlando is a short route on flat land that for the majority of the trip has very few things in the way of the tracks. You should see the eminent domain cases the California team is struggling with just to get the train from Anaheim to Los Angeles! The Bay Area route is also facing similar struggles through the affluent suburbs around Stanford (which is richly ironic from a political standpoint). With only five planned stations in wide open spaces, Florida HSR will be an easy thing to get rolling, in theory.

But the obstacles are that central Florida has not embraced rail transportation in any meaningful way, and there is no real precedence set for it. And most interestingly, the Tampa-Orlando commuter market is so small that no scheduled airline has even attempted to fly a small 50 seat regional jet or turboprop back and forth once or twice a day to make a few bucks off of that market. There are only two Amtrak trains per day between the two cities, part of the long distance Silver Star or Silver Meteor service up and down the Eastern Seaboard. Judging from the small and sad conditions of the Tampa and Orlando Amtrak stations, the passenger numbers on the Tampa-Orlando route are not big.

The danger is that Florida HSR builds this line because it's cheap and easy to do, and a week after opening day when the mayors and marching bands go away it starts sending empty trains back and forth because there's no market for the thing. Then it's held up around the country as an example of government waste and pork, and Tallahassee suddenly has a political hot potato on their hands over how they are going to subsidize the daily operation for the next 50 years.

But the fact remains, there is still a great deal of work to do on the plan. Some station renderings would be nice to see. Particularly the WDW station on Disney property. :D

To be announced Thursday officially. I will comment further then.....

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.135bb89cab5c7dfce021f53c3286a72b.fa1&show_article=1
 

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
I'm not so sure I like federal tax money paying for this. :shrug:

Is this a matching funds type thing, or are the US taxpayers paying all of this?
 

TimeTrip

Well-Known Member

Don't mean to be baiting you to comment before Thursday, but I heard something on the local news about how they surveyed people to see how many people might ride the train, and they said 2 million plus a year, or something. I remain skeptical of how much of a money pit the system will be. Just because you can bring in 50 million a year, doesn't mean profits...

At least they acknowledged the issue of what to do with users once they reach a station.

Does anyone know how many travellers travel directly from OIA to Disney directly? IMO that still seems to be the best route to run (and by Universal if possible). Keep tampa out of the mix... but then it wouldn't really need to be High Speed anyways.
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know how many travellers travel directly from OIA to Disney directly? IMO that still seems to be the best route to run (and by Universal if possible). Keep tampa out of the mix... but then it wouldn't really need to be High Speed anyways.

A news article from 2008 when Disney and OIA were re-negotiating the Magical Express contract, claimed about 2.2 million visitors for the previous year rode the buses, but that number also included cruise traffic as well. So, my guess would be about 1.7 - 1.8 million a year, just for those going from the airport to WDW.

Here's my take on this thing. Orlando and Tampa are both growing cities thanks in large part to the number of vacationers that come here every year. The number of visitors to WDW over the last 10 years has grown at an average rate of 3%, putting last year's total at over 47 million. If the trend continues, that number will be over 63 million in 10 years. If they do nothing now, then it just means that come 2020, the roads between Orlando airport and the theme parks will be clogged with cars and buses. By putting in the rail line, it may spur additional growth of Tampa's airport, taking some of the strain off OIA and the Orlanda area.

I agree that there may not be enough passengers in the short term to adequately fund this, however, I firmly believe this is a case of "If you build it, they will come", and by 2020, they will.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member

Yeah, California got 900 Million from this same pot of cash on Monday. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-high-speed-money-20101026,0,2836476.story

And yes, unkadug, this is your federal tax dollars at work. Another couple Billion rounded up from all 50 states and then doled out to pretty much just California and Florida, the two states with active high speed rail projects on the drawing boards. :rolleyes:
 

fosse76

Well-Known Member
Yeah, California got 900 Million from this same pot of cash on Monday. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-high-speed-money-20101026,0,2836476.story

And yes, unkadug, this is your federal tax dollars at work. Another couple Billion rounded up from all 50 states and then doled out to pretty much just California and Florida, the two states with active high speed rail projects on the drawing boards. :rolleyes:

It's what taxes are for. They are "fees" for government programs. It allows for an equitable charge of services, so that no single group of income-levels are forced to pay an unequal amount of money. Government programs aren't technically supposed to be profitable (though no one is arguing they can't be). Public transportation is needed in this country.
 

DocMcHulk

Well-Known Member

PirateFrank

Well-Known Member
The problem is that building more roads does, in a good many of cases, just cause traffic to increase more. It happened to New York City throughout the 1960s, they would build a new highway or bridge to alleviate congestion on one, but both would end up congested almost immediately.

Flawed logic....congestion is a simple problem to solve. If there's a bottleneck, you simply open the neck until congestion is relieved.

The problem with NYC is that they did not build big enough roads....the size of the city being what it is, having 4-6 lane highways in the area was severely underestimating traffic needs of the area. NYs woeful addressing of traffic congestion is simply a case of NY not doing enough.

Granted such thinking is politically deprecated, since more roads = more cars....but once you throw out the enviro-fallacy surrounding congestion, and really add some mega highways to the NYC area....NY's traffic problems (save for manhattan where adding infrastructure isn't possible) become a thing of the past.....
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
IL got some train money for a Chicago-St. Louis route

It was actually 230 Million to help start a standard-speed Amtrak route between Chicago and Iowa City.

Illinois asked for 8 Million to begin initial planning for a high speed rail line between Chicago and St. Louis, but they were declined that small amount on this go round. Michigan got a big chunk at 150 Million for standard-speed rail for Amtrak between Kalamazoo and Dearborn.

Of the 2.5 Billion the Feds handed out this week for rail projects, it was divvied up thusly;

California - 900 Million
Florida - 800 Million
Illinois - 230 Million
Michigan - 150 Million
Massachusetts - 150 Million
Virginia, Georgia, Oregon - The Rest

http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/119_455/high_Speed_rail-1019090-1.html
 

NattyBumppo

New Member
It was actually 230 Million to help start a standard-speed Amtrak route between Chicago and Iowa City.

What a route that will be -- it's destined to fail. 5 hours one way by train, 3 hours by car.

If rail isn't as fast or faster than highway travel, it will fail. After the novelty wears off, people will stop riding.

I'm not sure of travel habits in Florida, but the Chicago-Iowa city route will essentially flush 230 mil down the drain.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom