Crowds are down? Curious about the claims . . .

[michmousefan]

Meanwhile, Cedar Fair reports attendance up 3% and revenues 4%:

http://ir.cedarfair.com/newsroom/pr...Through-July-4th-Holiday-Weekend/default.aspx

Although... when I was at Cedar Point last month, everyone who passed through the resort gate was wanded. Security Theater is a new feature there as well.

 

[Kylo Ken]

I think it's the natural progression. If people are still doing an annual week Disney only vacation when their youngest is 12 - they aren't doing it for the kids. There's so much more in Orlando for that age bracket than "just" Disney.

Totally agree with this. My kids are 4 and 1 respectively. They are prime Disney age for a few more years. My 4 y/o already wants to go on more thrill rides. Eventually a family's time at Disney progresses into time at Universal.

As for me, I went through the same progression as you mentioned. I came back to Disney for the nostalgia of being a kid and then I had my own kids. But yes, one day in the future we will be frequenting Universal more I'm sure, unless Disney builds a few more thrill rides.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Meanwhile, Cedar Fair reports attendance up 3% and revenues 4%:

http://ir.cedarfair.com/newsroom/pr...Through-July-4th-Holiday-Weekend/default.aspx

Although... when I was at Cedar Point last month, everyone who passed through the resort gate was wanded. Security Theater is a new feature there as well.

I just had a completely random thought when you said that.

At Universal, if people complain about being wanded before entering, they should say "the wand chooses the wizard!"

Back to your originally-scheduled programming.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Totally agree with this. My kids are 4 and 1 respectively. They are prime Disney age for a few more years. My 4 y/o already wants to go on more thrill rides. Eventually a family's time at Disney progresses into time at Universal.

As for me, I went through the same progression as you mentioned. I came back to Disney for the nostalgia of being a kid and then I had my own kids. But yes, one day in the future we will be frequenting Universal more I'm sure, unless Disney builds a few more thrill rides.

True of our kids, too. They are on the cusp of 40 inches, at which point, Disney will be the schnitzel. And they are so excited for the rides that come with hitting 40". 44" is another biggie at WDW (around age 6). Once they hit age 10 or so and are tall enough for all of the big thrills at Universal, I'm sure we will start spending more time there. As it is, I can't wait for them to hit 42" at which point I think Universal is worthwhile for a couple days with kids.

Disney monopolizes under age 5 at this point. That is quite the small age group to focus on, and they only need tickets once they turn 3. Thank goodness some of the attractions coming over the next 5 years are geared toward an older age group.

 

[Nubs70]

I'd argue that it shows the Misapplication of LEAN techniques, LEAN is about OPTIMIZING production like having multi-purpose machines which can make multiple parts so in the event a machine failure the production line slows not stops. Reusing consumanbles multiple times in a process say one step uses high purity water for a cleaning step and another just needs non-potable for cooling, Well instead of simply sending the water from the cleaning step down the drain you use it in the cooling step as well saving water AND cost. This is what LEAN is really about.

What Disney is practicing is a process called 'Value Engineering' which is a discredited process which aims to create products at the 'minimum acceptable quality' level.

I would suggest both LEAN and Value Engineering fall under the term Business Process Optimization.

On water reuse, the collection, quality and redistribution can be cost prohibitive. An admirable goal and worth of study, but can often does not have enough ROI to get past the controller.

 

[wdwfan757]

Are local amusement parks with thrill rides not common? Yeah, Universal has more thrilling rides than WDW, but I can't imagine going to Uni in search of thrills. I didn't realize that "kids have matured beyond WDW, now they want Uni" until I started looking at wdw and universal forums. Cedar Point, Magic Mountain, Busch Gardens WB and Tampa, even Kings Dominion all offer a whole lot more thrills than you'll find at Universal and they're a lot cheaper too.

 

[21stamps]

Totally agree with this. My kids are 4 and 1 respectively. They are prime Disney age for a few more years. My 4 y/o already wants to go on more thrill rides. Eventually a family's time at Disney progresses into time at Universal.

As for me, I went through the same progression as you mentioned. I came back to Disney for the nostalgia of being a kid and then I had my own kids. But yes, one day in the future we will be frequenting Universal more I'm sure, unless Disney builds a few more thrill rides.

Yep. That's what people here are forgetting. There will always be a new family of ages 5 and under. Last year (age 5) we did 9 nights WDW. It was TOO MUCH- for me. I will never do that again. We actually cut Legoland out of the itinerary (10th day) due to exhaustion and just went directly to Key West for a week of island fun and much needed relaxation.
I missed the boat on Legoland, the rides that my son is into this year makes that park not even worth admission price-for me- even though he's a Lego fantatic.

One person's reasoning has nothing to do with another's. But I don't think anyone can dispute that WDW has the tot market dominated.

Meanwhile, Cedar Fair reports attendance up 3% and revenues 4%:

http://ir.cedarfair.com/newsroom/pr...Through-July-4th-Holiday-Weekend/default.aspx

Although... when I was at Cedar Point last month, everyone who passed through the resort gate was wanded. Security Theater is a new feature there as well.

Kings island has been doing the bag search/wands for a while now. We are going again today and I'm anticipating it again. They have so many stations open that the lines move pretty quickly.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Are local amusement parks with thrill rides not common? Yeah, Universal has more thrilling rides than WDW, but I can't imagine going to Uni in search of thrills. I didn't realize that "kids have matured beyond WDW, now they want Uni" until I started looking at wdw and universal forums. Cedar Point, Magic Mountain, Busch Gardens WB and Tampa, even Kings Dominion all offer a whole lot more thrills than you'll find at Universal and they're a lot cheaper too.

Are you suggesting that all of the coasters at Six Flags are on the same plane as Spider-Man or Forbidden Journey or Transformers? If you want coasters, yes, you go to your local amusement park. If you want heavily-themed thrill rides, Universal is your destination. If you want heavily-themed family rides, it's WDW. Conveniently, if you vacation to Central Florida, you can get a mixture of all three if you go to Busch, Universal, and WDW. Thus the appeal.

You take a trip to Six Flags.

You vacation to Central Florida.

They are different things.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Are local amusement parks with thrill rides not common? Yeah, Universal has more thrilling rides than WDW, but I can't imagine going to Uni in search of thrills. I didn't realize that "kids have matured beyond WDW, now they want Uni" until I started looking at wdw and universal forums. Cedar Point, Magic Mountain, Busch Gardens WB and Tampa, even Kings Dominion all offer a whole lot more thrills than you'll find at Universal and they're a lot cheaper too.

Well, part of the thrill of going to Kings Dominion is driving on I-95 and not getting stabbed while you're there....

 

[21stamps]

True of our kids, too. They are on the cusp of 40 inches, at which point, Disney will be the schnitzel. And they are so excited for the rides that come with hitting 40". 44" is another biggie at WDW (around age 6). Once they hit age 10 or so and are tall enough for all of the big thrills at Universal, I'm sure we will start spending more time there. As it is, I can't wait for them to hit 42" at which point I think Universal is worthwhile for a couple days with kids.

Disney monopolizes under age 5 at this point. That is quite the small age group to focus on, and they only need tickets once they turn 3. Thank goodness some of the attractions coming over the next 5 years are geared toward an older age group.

My son hit 48" last week!!!! This is huge for us bc it opened up so many more rides at our theme park!! But he still complained about not being tall enough for all- and I know the same will happen on our IoA day this winter lol.
I think Disney's max restriction at 48" is perfect. But once they hit that mark and especially once they are 54", I don't know any kid who would choose just Disney over a combo of Orlando parks at that point.
Even at age 5 my son LOVED Old Town. He could ride the "Slingshot" there last year (44" min I think) but Kings Island is 48" for same ride.

 

[SorcererMC]

Are you suggesting that all of the coasters at Six Flags are on the same plane as Spider-Man or Forbidden Journey or Transformers? If you want coasters, yes, you go to your local amusement park. If you want heavily-themed thrill rides, Universal is your destination. If you want heavily-themed family rides, it's WDW. Conveniently, if you vacation to Central Florida, you can get a mixture of all three if you go to Busch, Universal, and WDW. Thus the appeal.

You take a trip to Six Flags.

You vacation to Central Florida.

They are different things.

True. I don't think he/she is suggesting it's the same - I think it shows that people will opt for a staycation in between theme park vacations and one of the ways that consumers will vote with their wallets.

 

[21stamps]

Are local amusement parks with thrill rides not common? Yeah, Universal has more thrilling rides than WDW, but I can't imagine going to Uni in search of thrills. I didn't realize that "kids have matured beyond WDW, now they want Uni" until I started looking at wdw and universal forums. Cedar Point, Magic Mountain, Busch Gardens WB and Tampa, even Kings Dominion all offer a whole lot more thrills than you'll find at Universal and they're a lot cheaper too.

Two words- Harry. Potter.
. We just started reading the first book and my kiddo is already hooked..not full fledged fan yet, but give it a year..
We absolutely adore Kings Island, Peanuts characters are great-- but the wizarding world of Harry Potter later this year is going to be super exciting.

 

[SorcererMC]

Two words- Harry. Potter.
. We just started reading the first book and my kiddo is already hooked..not full fledged fan yet, but give it a year..
We absolutely adore Kings Island, Peanuts characters are great-- but the wizarding world of Harry Potter later this year is going to be super exciting.

I was wondering about that after you said that your child was 7....you seem to love Disney more than Universal but if your child does get into Harry Potter I think you will be pleasantly surprised....I was.

 

[21stamps]

I was wondering about that after you said that your child was 7....you seem to love Disney more than Universal but if your child does get into Harry Potter I think you will be pleasantly surprised....I was.

He just turned 6. It's why we're doing a big 7 night DCL/6 nights WDW (2 pre, 4 post) Disney trip this year.
I think it's the last year he will be so in to the characters. (minus Star Wars).
I just, like on the last 2 days, decided to replace a MK day with a Uni/IoA day combo. I would have held off another year, but he loves the Grinch- and with their Christmas activities/Macy's parade, I just couldn't skip it.

This could very well be our last year of the Santa Magic, so I'm cramming it all in.lol

 

[**Stacy**]

I will be curious to see what happens when the Silver AP summer black out ends...I will also be curious to see how Disney scrambles to correct the over-correction that the new AP tiers caused to crowd levels.

Seems to indicate that it may have been an anomaly for the holiday weekend. I'll be curious if we go back to the lower than normal numbers for the rest of the summer.

 

[21stamps]

Ok I'm off to KI...and my kid's first time on an inversion coaster ever!!! Wish me luck

 

[Kylo Ken]

True of our kids, too. They are on the cusp of 40 inches, at which point, Disney will be the schnitzel. And they are so excited for the rides that come with hitting 40". 44" is another biggie at WDW (around age 6). Once they hit age 10 or so and are tall enough for all of the big thrills at Universal, I'm sure we will start spending more time there. As it is, I can't wait for them to hit 42" at which point I think Universal is worthwhile for a couple days with kids.

Disney monopolizes under age 5 at this point. That is quite the small age group to focus on, and they only need tickets once they turn 3. Thank goodness some of the attractions coming over the next 5 years are geared toward an older age group.

Couldn't agree more. My 4 y/o a few months ago passed the 40" mark so it opened up a whole load of new rides. Now she is itching to go on the bigger thrill rides like Space Mountain, Rock 'n' Rollercoaster etc.

I agree with your last statement too because Disney definitely needs more attractions to hold the "older" kids attention. You have a few but I can totally see where that age bracket gets kinda lost in the shuffle. I know for sure once my kids are both tall enough we will be spending more time at Universal and probably Busch Gardens in Tampa. Heck, the way things are going, Disney will probably have priced me out by then.

 

[jlsHouston]

You're absolutely right, the 4 seasons will absolutely clobber the Disney hotels in terms of amenities and luxury. In fact they are in a completely different category. AAA's diamond systems which is comparable to the star rating systems out there, will never allow a Disney property to have 5 diamond classification. They just are not built for it, they need to have competitive golf courses as part of the actual hotel premises (not wider resort area), they need to have varied restaurant styles, at least one with a la carte pricing/service, they need to have personalized welcoming, gifts in the room upon arrival, fresh flowers daily in the room, turndown service, concierges that know your name and particular interests, etc. Arguably, not the type of service that Disney should be focusing on. That sort of hotel isn't one that is A: affordable and B: attracts theme park goers. Disney's luxury brand hotels are what they are because they cater to families that are most likely there to attend theme parks. I won't even begin to entertain the discussion that hotel stays don't have an impact on theme park attendance.

In terms of this general discussion:

Yes, attendance is down. THANK GOD. Neither the parks nor the resorts can sustain that kind of crowd level on an extended basis. We all decry the state of the maintenance. However, it's no mystery, the company can't take rides down for refurb, paint, and "general upkeep" when they need the capacity in order to maintain fire code. Now I will say, being an AP, living a whopping 12 miles to the turnstiles of the magic kingdom, and spending 2 nights a week in the parks, crowds are not dying at nearly the death-knell that is being reported on here. I've still seen hour long waits for the PeopleMover on a Saturday. Yes, thats right, the PeopleMover. With friends who work in coporate and P&R management, they will easily talk my ear off about the focus on going back to rack room rates (meaning non-discounted), and maximizing revenue per guest. In other words, they want less people and more money.... for now.

This plays into the expansions currently happening. The company is brutally aware maintaining that kind of crowd level and closing half a park won't fly. Sure it's only one park but the armchair imagineers here forget how acutely the parks are connected for a vacation family. Disney is relying on the other parks to take some of the pressure off MK. Without them keeping a crowd all day, they rush to MK after a certain point and things get messy. We can all agree that the cuts that came from shanghai are absolutely abysmal and need corrected. Thankfully with the end of the fiscal year right around the corner we should be seeing things improving.

Well I'm not truly comparing Four Seasons to WDW deluxe resorts... Or maybe I partially am. I've experienced service at POP or at CSR and definitely at several of the Deluxe properties where I felt it was 4 and 5 star service. They knew our name, there were silly towel animals on the bed. And a clock radio... Several occasions there was something special in the room.
Past couple of years it's been a lot of substandard service and surroundings with moments of magic interjected. This has been across the board at the Deluxe resorts we've visited with SSR being the exception and the Poly which we had hit for a week in July 2015 once the the main building and theme pool construction had been completed.
At SSR I just see CM's that respond promptly to requests and an effort to maintain the place. Do I see evidence of the cuts, yes but the general focus doesn't leave you with a feeling cutbacks are the priority. In general there's a consistency of quality and service in play here in spite of the cost saving measures.
With the POLY, it was evident upon check in that all staff were enthusiastic to show off the face lift. Even when things weren't working so well like your band opening the gate to the pool, everyone was running around trying to assist. Great staff attitude trying to please all the people all the time. Impossible to do but I had to applaud the effort and it was a great week on property.
So that's basically the bar I hold WDW to when I stay at one of their resorts. Meet or exceed my expectations. Do I expect a Four Seasons experience? No but I expect that attitude and effort. And as someone who has paid rack room rates at WDW, I certainly wouldn't again. They want my vacation dollars in the future discounted or non discounted they need to be welcoming me and mine at the front door. I may not see Mickey and the Princesses elsewhere but relying on the brand to grab my future vacation dollars is serious short sighted thinking by your CM friends. I'm tired of EPIC failures by TWDC and if the grab for maximum revenue per guest is what staff stays focused on then it's really no wonder I feel this way.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I'm guessing his point is that Disney's enjoying the advantages of the Investments it made during the eighties and nineties when it didn't have so much competition. Those Investments have now paid off big-time in that they have put Disney so far ahead that for all of universal investments has had in the past 10 years they really still are not nipping at the heels of Disney.

Since the opening of Disney-MGM Studios in 1989 and Universal Studios in 1990, Universal has kept reasonably well-paced with WDW.

What Universal has failed to do is overcome Disney's initial advantage gained from its pre-Eisner theme parks, the Magic Kingdom and Epcot.

Until Universal creates a theme park to rival the Magic Kingdom (something nearly impossible to do), it will always play second fiddle to WDW.

What Universal potentially can do with a 3rd Gate is steal the "short vacation" market away from Disney. But Universal also needs the hotels, airport transportation, and pricing to beat Disney in the 3-to-5 day vacation market, a market that has been growing in the United States where vacations have been trending shorter.

To succeed, Universal needs to capture all of the vacation dollars from the time someone lands at MCO to the time they depart.

 

[Kylo Ken]

Yep. That's what people here are forgetting. There will always be a new family of ages 5 and under. Last year (age 5) we did 9 nights WDW. It was TOO MUCH- for me. I will never do that again. We actually cut Legoland out of the itinerary (10th day) due to exhaustion and just went directly to Key West for a week of island fun and much needed relaxation.
I missed the boat on Legoland, the rides that my son is into this year makes that park not even worth admission price-for me- even though he's a Lego fantatic.

One person's reasoning has nothing to do with another's. But I don't think anyone can dispute that WDW has the tot market dominated.

Kings island has been doing the bag search/wands for a while now. We are going again today and I'm anticipating it again. They have so many stations open that the lines move pretty quickly.

I always wanted to go to LegoLand but I figure I pay enough money to the mouse for my AP that I almost feel obligated to go when I drive up north (I'm on the Gulf Coast of Florida). Disney undoubtedly has the tot market cornered. Disney images are on diapers for cryin out loud! These kids are exposed to Disney from day one. Like most people, I find the trips to Orlando to be exhausting rather than relaxing nowadays. Then again, anything with little ones isn't very relaxing, right?