Crowds are down? Curious about the claims . . .

[ford91exploder]

Definitely a concern. Decisions that will be made over the next two years will impact their long-term growth, Iger won't have to clean up the mess, so to speak. Good question on the available talent pool.

The bigger problem is Disney has actively PURGED those with the skills and experience from the corporate ranks leaving only yes men and careerists, Heck Iger and the igerbots booted Matt Ouimet the guy who basically saved Disneyland, The people who COULD save Disney all work for competitors these days and in most cases they are looking for payback for what Disney did to them and are just waiting for the day that Iger/Disney make a fatal misstep and Disney's assets become THEIR assets.

 

[FullSailDan]

I can buy into your logic about the purpose of tiered pricing. And until recently I would chime in agreement why would anyone come to Orlando except for the Theme Parks.
Then I stayed at the Four Seasons Orlando. That's practically a vacation experience in itself..

You're absolutely right, the 4 seasons will absolutely clobber the Disney hotels in terms of amenities and luxury. In fact they are in a completely different category. AAA's diamond systems which is comparable to the star rating systems out there, will never allow a Disney property to have 5 diamond classification. They just are not built for it, they need to have competitive golf courses as part of the actual hotel premises (not wider resort area), they need to have varied restaurant styles, at least one with a la carte pricing/service, they need to have personalized welcoming, gifts in the room upon arrival, fresh flowers daily in the room, turndown service, concierges that know your name and particular interests, etc. Arguably, not the type of service that Disney should be focusing on. That sort of hotel isn't one that is A: affordable and B: attracts theme park goers. Disney's luxury brand hotels are what they are because they cater to families that are most likely there to attend theme parks. I won't even begin to entertain the discussion that hotel stays don't have an impact on theme park attendance.

In terms of this general discussion:

Yes, attendance is down. THANK GOD. Neither the parks nor the resorts can sustain that kind of crowd level on an extended basis. We all decry the state of the maintenance. However, it's no mystery, the company can't take rides down for refurb, paint, and "general upkeep" when they need the capacity in order to maintain fire code. Now I will say, being an AP, living a whopping 12 miles to the turnstiles of the magic kingdom, and spending 2 nights a week in the parks, crowds are not dying at nearly the death-knell that is being reported on here. I've still seen hour long waits for the PeopleMover on a Saturday. Yes, thats right, the PeopleMover. With friends who work in coporate and P&R management, they will easily talk my ear off about the focus on going back to rack room rates (meaning non-discounted), and maximizing revenue per guest. In other words, they want less people and more money.... for now.

This plays into the expansions currently happening. The company is brutally aware maintaining that kind of crowd level and closing half a park won't fly. Sure it's only one park but the armchair imagineers here forget how acutely the parks are connected for a vacation family. Disney is relying on the other parks to take some of the pressure off MK. Without them keeping a crowd all day, they rush to MK after a certain point and things get messy. We can all agree that the cuts that came from shanghai are absolutely abysmal and need corrected. Thankfully with the end of the fiscal year right around the corner we should be seeing things improving.

 

[ford91exploder]

Really? Examples of it happening in less then a year without being some outbreak of illness etc.

Kodak discontinuing several key professional products drove much of the professional/industrial imaging market to Ilford/Fuji in MONTHS. And it was not because of the specific products that got pulled rather it was fear of what will Kodak discontinue NEXT because while those were key products they were for an important yet niche market.

What happens is the companies actions violate the customers TRUST in the company and it's products and when the TRUST is lost the customers go elsewhere.

 

[ford91exploder]

Wall Street does not want attendance drops if revenue and profit drops. Wall street wants companies to grow and maintain there profit percent as if sales go up and profit percent stays same profit goes up. Shareholders make more. It bothers me that people think Wall Street wants to just cut cut cut to increase bottom line. They don't as long term companies like Disney you want to milk the cash cow not butcher it for a few good years of profit.

Now some of course want that but most don't operate that way.

I'd agree with you but you are describing the pre-1985 Wall St. The current Wall St of HFT only cares about short term results If an action will result in a large return in the near term and bankruptcy in the intermediate to long term the short term profits will be taken and then the brokerages will short the stock long term, They will make money with BOTH bets. The future of the company is immaterial.

 

[21stamps]

Two of our boys went out to California with my mom a few weeks back and visited Disneyland while my wife and I took our little one to Universal and the MK a month prior. We just returned from a week in Washington, D.C., which was their first trip there, and as much as they enjoy theme parks, Washington was a huge winner with our kids.

Prices at WDW that are not justifiable to anyone that has any fiscal sense or cares about their bank account coupled with poor quality and an utter disregard for their customer, or rather contempt, I think it's exactly what you're thinking, they have hit that breaking point and their long cherished customers are bailing in droves.

I think this sums everything up.
People are taking their own emotions and projecting them onto others. Stating things like "anyone" instead of the more accurate "I".
Plenty of people, with fiscal sense, go to Disney World. One person's feelings can be similar to many, but can not be used as a blanket statement.

I can buy into your logic about the purpose of tiered pricing. And until recently I would chime in agreement why would anyone come to Orlando except for the Theme Parks.
Then I stayed at the Four Seasons Orlando. That's practically a vacation experience in itself..

There is not one Disney World property that is "luxury". But if you stay at the Four Seasons Orlando you are probably there for work, visiting friends, or the area tourist attractions/parks.
If not, then you'd be at the Four Seasons in Palm Beach

 

[ford91exploder]

Also, I don't know if it's always been this way (pretty sure it hasn't), but looking at the Disney app and the crowd calendars, it seems the weekends are MUCH less busy at the parks. Waits at MK were no longer than 60 minutes for a lot of the time over the past few weekends according to the app, whereas waits would soar well about that during weekdays.

Look at the room pricing on weekends its in some cases 25-50% higher than weekday prices, It's a no brainer kids

 

[SorcererMC]

What happens is the companies actions violate the customers TRUST in the company and it's products and when the TRUST is lost the customers go elsewhere.

Yes and it's very difficult to judge or quantify that...until they do go elsewhere. Disney was not doing itself any favors by biasing survey responses. Goes back to the mgmt. issue and 'only hearing what you want to'.

 

[GhostHost1000]

Just talked to a friend.

After the Holiday Weekend, the halls of TDO look like

I hope this is true... because next year's celebration needs to be the year of a million changes... everywhere, from resorts, to the way things are managed, priced, maintained, expanded, etc. etc. etc.

I know converting rooms to DVC gives them basically "guaranteed" occupancy in some way not to mention up front payment... but.... I'm a dvc member as well and I'm beginning to slow down on my attendance because something is just missing...it's not the same and they need to change this and now...the magic has sprung a leak

 

[jlsHouston]

I think this sums everything up.
People are taking their own emotions and projecting them onto others. Stating things like "anyone" instead of the more accurate "I".
Plenty of people, with fiscal sense, go to Disney World. One person's feelings can be similar to many, but can not be used as a blanket statement.

There is not one Disney World property that is "luxury". But if you stay at the Four Seasons Orlando you are probably there for work, visiting friends, or the area tourist attractions/parks.
If not, then you'd be at the Four Seasons in Palm Beach

LOL I'm waiting for them to build a Four Seasons in PCB...

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I think this sums everything up.
People are taking their own emotions and projecting them onto others. Stating things like "anyone" instead of the more accurate "I".
Plenty of people, with fiscal sense, go to Disney World. One person's feelings can be similar to many, but can not be used as a blanket statement.

There is not one Disney World property that is "luxury". But if you stay at the Four Seasons Orlando you are probably there for work, visiting friends, or the area tourist attractions/parks.
If not, then you'd be at the Four Seasons in Palm Beach

I believe Universal is building a boutique 5-Star resort right now. It's only 600 rooms, but should be totally top shelf.

 

[21stamps]

I believe Universal is building a boutique 5-Star resort right now. It's only 600 rooms, but should be totally top shelf.

That would be awesome. I think a ton of adults will stay there.
We did my 30th birthday with a group of friends at IoA. I like city walk, loved Halloween Horror nights, and love rollercoasters.
I have no intention of taking my just turned 6 year old to Halloween Horror Nights though.

People can compare Disney/universal all day, but really they are not all the same travelers, a lot sure. However, people with a child/children under the age of 6 probably aren't staying 7 nights at a Universal resort. Dr Seuss can not grab that market the way Disney characters- in 4 parks-can.

We are doing one day uni/IoA- it's a lot more $ than Disney bc of the one day pass with express pass. But it's worth it to me bc of the Christmas stuff. People at Universal or in the area will probably do the same with Disney, for the same reason.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Yes, the overcrowding is Disney's fault. They failed to update and add capacity to the parks over the last 10-15 years, while recording record profits. Sorry, but in the 80's and early 90's WDW was still a value, not the overpriced mess it has become, even with the discounts.

Corporate Disney's treatment of WDW shows all the earmarks of Lean manufacturing.

Essentially, corporate Disney is viewing its 'Guests' as WIP (work in progress) on an assembly line and has, for the last decade, focused on optimizing production rather than increasing production capacity to satisfy increased demand.

Funny thing though, people are not material.

(Unless you're talking about Soylent Green. )

 

[ford91exploder]

Yes and it's very difficult to judge or quantify that...until they do go elsewhere. Disney was not doing itself any favors by biasing survey responses. Goes back to the mgmt. issue and 'only hearing what you want to'.

You are seeing it now, After the cuts in the winter and spring as many insiders (of whom I am NOT one) noted that attendance began to crater. Higher prices certainly contributed but the conditions of the park and cuts in service certainly alienated many including too many FIRST TIMERS who now will never return.

 

[tribbleorlfl]

The bigger problem is Disney has actively PURGED those with the skills and experience from the corporate ranks leaving only yes men and careerists, Heck Iger and the igerbots booted Matt Ouimet the guy who basically saved Disneyland, The people who COULD save Disney all work for competitors these days and in most cases they are looking for payback for what Disney did to them and are just waiting for the day that Iger/Disney make a fatal misstep and Disney's assets become THEIR assets.

I'm an economist with over a decade of pricing experience. I can't tell you how many times I've applied for WDW pricing positions (ticketing, merchandise and f &b) over the past several years and haven't even gotten a phone interview. It's clear to me they aren't at all interested in bringing diverse backgrounds from outside the company. They only want internal candidates that drink the Kool-aid and more likely to go with the program.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

Are the crowds down? It will be interesting to see if the trend continues to go into the Holiday Season when pricing goes up starting December.

 

[21stamps]

Are the crowds down? It will be interesting to see if the trend continues to go into the Holiday Season when pricing goes up starting December.

A lot of the resorts are close to sold out- 1 category left. So I'm not hopeful.

 

[ford91exploder]

Corporate Disney's treatment of WDW shows all the earmarks of Lean manufacturing.

Essentially, corporate Disney is viewing its 'Guests' as WIP (work in progress) on an assembly line and has, for the last decade, focused on optimizing production rather than increasing production capacity to satisfy increased demand.

Funny thing though, people are not material.

(Unless you're talking about Soylent Green. )

I'd argue that it shows the Misapplication of LEAN techniques, LEAN is about OPTIMIZING production like having multi-purpose machines which can make multiple parts so in the event a machine failure the production line slows not stops. Reusing consumanbles multiple times in a process say one step uses high purity water for a cleaning step and another just needs non-potable for cooling, Well instead of simply sending the water from the cleaning step down the drain you use it in the cooling step as well saving water AND cost. This is what LEAN is really about.

What Disney is practicing is a process called 'Value Engineering' which is a discredited process which aims to create products at the 'minimum acceptable quality' level.

 

[ToTBellHop]

A lot of the resorts are close to sold out- 1 category left. So I'm not hopeful.

But are they really sold out or has Disney just pulled inventory as they've done in years-past (e.g. can't book a room but 30% of the rooms sit empty so they can lay off Mousekeepers)? They use this same strategy to staff "booked solid" restaurants where half of the tables are empty.

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm an economist with over a decade of pricing experience. I can't tell you how many times I've applied for WDW pricing positions (ticketing, merchandise and f &b) over the past several years and haven't even gotten a phone interview. It's clear to me they aren't at all interested in bringing diverse backgrounds from outside the company. They only want internal candidates that drink the Kool-aid and more likely to go with the program.

Always a bad sign for a companies long term health.

 

[HauntedMansionFLA]

A lot of the resorts are close to sold out- 1 category left. So I'm not hopeful.

What part of the Holiday? More toward Christmas Day?