Crowds are down? Curious about the claims . . .

[LuvtheGoof]

I dont think hes unique on that count. Though to some their opinion is fact, apparently.

Well, that is certainly true, but he is one of the worst offenders.

 

[jlsHouston]

Do you think more people would spend more if the quality of the product was better?

I don't consider myself "thrifty" as compared to others, but I stopped buying T-Shirts at disney awhile ago.

The cheap T-Shirts they sell don't last long. Over the past 10 years I've puchashed maybe 10 or so T-Shirts, only one has lasted longer than a year or so. Coincidentally its probably the first one i bought.

Boy you aren't exaggerating either. The quality of the clothing is hit or miss these days. And this year I noticed a major food quality difference at many of the restaurants just from last November !. I don't blame or look down or even think to categorize someone who eats off property or packs their own lunches and snacks into the parks. The cupcakes weren't as good, the sides that come with the kids meals were rotten looking most of the time, the pulled pork sandwiches were like all bread and no meat or cole slaw. Thankfully Disney still does a good steak. I was really happy at the buffet breakfast served over at Pinnochio's after that early morning thing we went to, and I finally ate at Tusker House and the day I did I have to say it was every bit as good as Boma.
Overall though I think Disney's cutbacks are going to be a problem if they can't make cuts and maintain quality.

 

[jlsHouston]

I stopped spending on most merchandise years ago as well. Yes, we would spend more if their was a greater selection of options and the quality was better. WDW seems to be catering to the "one and done" customer.

Well I buy some of the merchandise. I love alot of the jewelry. I bought the clock and lumiere and cup from Beauty and the Beast. I've bought some collectible dolls. Of course we buy hats...and the sorcerer crap for the grandson. Backpacks and bags and beach towels and throws. For the most part I feel I get quality for the price I pay on this stuff since it is branded stuff. But in general I stay away from their toys and t shirts and most clothing because it just isn't worth the money. I can buy that quality from the Walmart or Target for a lot less dollars.

 

[RobidaFlats]

You do understand that he just makes stuff up without any proof, right? Your link provided proof that he is wrong, as they are not going to pay one CM $4.30 and another CM at $11 or $14.

I provided a fact in an effort to be useful to the discussion. I made no comment as to the accuracy of anyone's claims.

I am still making no comment as to the accuracy of any claims, but your statement exceeds the evidence that I provided. I am certainly not arguing that the initial suggested wages were correct, but there is no "proof" of anything other than what WDW was offering as starting pay for the specified positions in EPCOT Center in 1982.

Your response assumes that the initial wages were in 1982 dollars (I don't believe it was specified at all). In addition, you make the assumption (which is perfectly reasonable, but an assumption nonetheless) that there would not be a massive discrepancy between starting pay at different entry-level positions. I think that is a perfectly sound argument to make, but these assumptions cause the evidence to fall short of conclusive "proof".

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I provided a fact in an effort to be useful to the discussion. I made no comment as to the accuracy of anyone's claims.

I am still making no comment as to the accuracy of any claims, but your statement exceeds the evidence that I provided. I am certainly not arguing that the initial suggested wages were correct, but there is no "proof" of anything other than what WDW was offering as starting pay for the specified positions in EPCOT Center in 1982.

Your response assumes that the initial wages were in 1982 dollars (I don't believe it was specified at all). In addition, you make the assumption (which is perfectly reasonable, but an assumption nonetheless) that there would not be a massive discrepancy between starting pay at different entry-level positions. I think that is a perfectly sound argument to make, but these assumptions cause the evidence to fall short of conclusive "proof".

Actually, I'm going by his posting history as well, to judge his accuracy and truthfulness.

 

[RobidaFlats]

Actually, I'm going by his posting history as well, to judge his accuracy and truthfulness.

Despite my new account, I've been around here a long time. Posting history is certainly a valid resource in deciding on whether to believe someone's statements. However, upgrading 3rd party evidence to proof based upon posting history is a crime against logic.

 

[EvilQueen-T]

So do you guys think the current smaller crowds are a backlash of the recent shootings, the higher tier prices which were designed to shift the crowds, and/or all the major refurbs in progress? I remember reading people on here saying last year when the new tier prices were announced on top of the refurbs people were saying they'd be taking a break from disney for a while. Just curious.

 

[TeriofTerror]

More "people in line" data for other parks, June 2016, 10 am to 5 pm (so not counting anyone who came to AK just for the evening stuff):

MK: Up around 17%
EP: +5%
DHS: No change from 2015
AK: -3%
WDW: +9%

My first thought was that looks like a 10% cut in capacity/staffing, coupled with a 1% decline in attendance. Again, we could be totally wrong on this.

And by "like" I mean, "Thank you for this information, and I trust its accuracy." I do not in any way mean this as an endorsement for Disney's crappy BS policy of needlessly increasing wait times and diminishing guest experience (not to mention cutting into CMs' paychecks) in a misguided attempt to save a few nickels.

 

[TeriofTerror]

That's another thing. Disney merchandise use to have some really cool, higher dollar stuff. I remember going to the Disney Stores in the malls and seeing just a bunch of neat things in the windows and in the front section on either side. That was the 1990s.

Sometime in the late 1990s they got away from the fancier/more interesting things and just the Disney Stores turned into just plush, T-shirts, and junk. It's what the Emporium is on Main St.

The only thing that is of interest to me, now, is the stuff in Art of Disney at the parks. A lot of those paintings are cool and they have some miniatures which are pretty neat. That's about it, though. While I like to look at them, after a painting or two that's pretty much it on buying.

When you think about what they're claiming is their target guests, the upper-class, and then you look at what they're offering:
- expensive T-shirt, plush, and junk in their stores/parks
- very expensive sub-par meals
- cuts in service/hours/staff so things don't look as great as they once did

It doesn't really add up. If you're going for the upper end, they'll pay, but they expect high quality products and service and expect to be catered to. Also, of the ones I've known, they're not the kind that like to be nickeled and dimed.

I can attest to this. In the mid-90s I purchased a pretty black negligee with a very subtle Mickey design at (what was then) MGM. Can you imagine finding anything like that now?!

 

[hopemax]

So do you guys think the current smaller crowds are a backlash of the recent shootings, the higher tier prices which were designed to shift the crowds, and/or all the major refurbs in progress? I remember reading people on here saying last year when the new tier prices were announced on top of the refurbs people were saying they'd be taking a break from disney for a while. Just curious.

I think other than some people who arrive by car, it's too soon for the recent events to have an impact on what is going on. Most people aren't going to cancel their long planned vacation and unrefundable airfare at the last minute. They may be nervous, but they'd still go. So I think this is the prices and the South American economy. Which means we haven't seen the effects of the recent incidents in the numbers and they could drop even more.

 

[**Stacy**]

Same here, I am not interested in the same dated (2015, 2016, etc)merchandise, pins or the "Tigger, is that you?" t-shirts that I have been looking at since the AK opened. I got into the Vinylmation blind packs for a bit (until the ex bought an entire sealed case of them for me..then the thrill of the surprise was gone) and I LOVED the grab bags at DTD...half the stuff in the bag was junk drawer stuff but I liked them because of the surprise factor and I liked squeezing the bags trying to guess what might be in the bag. Regular park visitors are bored with the merchandise...I am bored with the merchandise. If I was into collecting expensive pocketbooks I would have lots to be excited about,but I am all about what fits in my pocket.

I stopped spending on most merchandise years ago as well. Yes, we would spend more if their was a greater selection of options and the quality was better. WDW seems to be catering to the "one and done" customer.

 

[SorcererMC]

I think other than some people who arrive by car, it's too soon for the recent events to have an impact on what is going on. Most people aren't going to cancel their long planned vacation and unrefundable airfare at the last minute. They may be nervous, but they'd still go. So I think this is the prices and the South American economy. Which means we haven't seen the effects of the recent incidents in the numbers and they could drop even more.

re: Car/Air travelers to FL. Major feeder states to FL are: GA,TX, NY, NJ, NC, OH, IL, PA, ranked from most share to least, 10% (GA, TX, NY)-4% (OH, IL, PA). Air travel is mostly from NY and TX, but also OH, IL, PA....w/ low gas prices, I think that most OH, IL, PA drive. GA drives.

I don't think it's too soon for recent events to have an impact. I think that there is the psychological reaction to any of the recent events (pick one), maybe a general feeling of unease, and then the fiscal sensibility kicks in and people then decide to cancel, and wait until the 'atmosphere' improves and postpone. While most won't cancel, it sounds like enough are to have a major impact for WDW this summer.

Edit: Whatever the case, I think that Disney mgmt. thought that they have so much brand power, it will just blow over. Whether this is isolated or prolonged remains to be seen.....and I find their response in general weak, b/c of the erosion of trust that has occurred. I think both perception of value and perception of safety are contributing factors.

 

[Capsin4]

If you go with a family prices have jump a lot over the last 5-7 years.

IIRC, multiday passes were about $10 a day after the 4th day when we went in 2011. They're now $18 after the 4th and don't come close to $10 until you're over a week. Food is a huge difference since then too. We've been thinking about staying in the cabins for a while, but the refurbs eliminated the ovens and reduced the range from 4 burners to 2. You can't cook for 6 in that kitchen anymore and it was on purpose for sure.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I'm not disputing that. But people are forgetting that a lot more happened during those years in this country than just a new ceo at Disney.

Yes a lot has happened since 2005.

In 2005, Disney's Parks & Resorts (P&R) had operating income of $1.178B on revenue of $9.023B.

In 2015, P&R had operating income of $3.031B on revenue of $16.162B.

Sales are up 44% while profits are up 157%!

Bob Iger and his stock options thank you very much for paying those much higher ticket prices.

 

[SorcererMC]

Sales are up 44% while profits are up 157%!

Now that is interesting to me b/c it seems to support the trend of I'm seeing of increasing numbers of intl tourists spending so much more (eg threefold) than their domestic counterparts. For example, Brazil visitation has increased 156% since 2009, with 1.47 mln in 2015 (down 6% from 2014). Although, again, in recent years, intl tourism is slightly down w/ domestic tourists (up 8%) accounting for the increase in tourism (going for the new offerings).

That is to say, it's not merely the increasing volume of tourists, but also the spending habits (on dining, shopping, and entertainment) of that upper income cohort.

Edit: To be clear, this is the overall FL and Orlando trend, I don't have information specific to WDW.

Bob Iger and his stock options thank you very much for paying those much higher ticket prices.

No kidding. He really is lining his own pockets and not spreading it around.

 

[wdisney9000]

Ok I'm sorry, but that's just not true, and kind of offensive.

Its very true, and not offensive. Granted, people get offended at anything nowadays tho. Disneys prices are what is truly offensive. Especially for a family of four or more. You only have to pay for 2 people and one is a child. My brother has a family of four. He makes good money,but their trips use to average $3,500 and now the same trip at the same resort is over $5K in a matter of a few years. They visited every year, but now are considering every two or three years.

Thats dangerous for Disney because it forces once loyal customers who would rather vacation at WDW to go elsewhere and then they discover that they had a great time at the beach and rented an entire house for a week and the trip cost 1/4 of what Disney would have.

 

[SorcererMC]

Its very true, and not offensive. Granted, people get offended at anything nowadays tho. Disneys prices are what is truly offensive. Especially for a family of four or more. You only have to pay for 2 people and one is a child. My brother has a family of four. He makes good money,but their trips use to average $3,500 and now the same trip at the same resort is over $5K in a matter of a few years. They visited every year, but now are considering every two or three years.

Thats dangerous for Disney because it forces once loyal customers who would rather vacation at WDW to go elsewhere and then they discover that they had a great time at the beach and rented an entire house for a week and the trip cost 1/4 of what Disney would have.

More anecdotal evidence - same for my brother and his family of 5 (plus grandma) in GA, household income $100,000+, walking away not feeling like there was enough value for the money, and regularly spends vacation in the Caribbean.

 

[spaceghost]

More "people in line" data for other parks, June 2016, 10 am to 5 pm (so not counting anyone who came to AK just for the evening stuff):

MK: Up around 17%
EP: +5%
DHS: No change from 2015
AK: -3%
WDW: +9%

My first thought was that looks like a 10% cut in capacity/staffing, coupled with a 1% decline in attendance. Again, we could be totally wrong on this.

Thank you sir!

 

[SorcererMC]

One other thing in regard to public perception of the Disney brand (or BRAND as WDW1974 likes to say, and I might be going far out on a limb here but bear with me) - WDW is out of reach for most middle class Americans. Compare that to TWDC opening their new Shanghai Disneyland, amidst current events - actively courting the Chinese middle and upper class while spurning the American middle class. I can't imagine those optics are going over well (I could be wrong). This NY Times article says that analysts were predicting the recent spate of bad publicity to be immaterial b/c of the current good publicity, and b/c historically companies recover from it.

Bob Iger in a recent 6/22 NY Times article, "At Disney, Gloomy Realities Shadow a Fantasy World":

Robert A. Iger, Disney’s chief executive, alluded to this fascination [public sense of wonder for Disney theme parks - SorcererMC]
as we toured Shanghai Disneyland on June 11. “I grew up in the United States dreaming of going to Disneyland one day — unaffordable for us, by the way, and I didn’t go until I was a parent,” he said. “You now have that same dynamic here in
China that existed in the ’50s and ’60s in the United States, as people started looking for more leisure activities. It’s palpable.”
​

Walt and Roy Disney knew their product, knew who their customers were, and knew what they wanted. Without getting carried away, I think that even Eisner and Wells knew that, too.

I keep getting the feeling that today's Walt Disney Company does not (and is far removed from its legacy despite claims to the contrary).

Maybe there really is more going on with attendance than meets the eye? And if that's the case, the company's response here matters greatly. I see 2017 as pivotal; time will tell.

 

[21stamps]

Its very true, and not offensive. Granted, people get offended at anything nowadays tho. Disneys prices are what is truly offensive. Especially for a family of four or more. You only have to pay for 2 people and one is a child. My brother has a family of four. He makes good money,but their trips use to average $3,500 and now the same trip at the same resort is over $5K in a matter of a few years. They visited every year, but now are considering every two or three years.

Thats dangerous for Disney because it forces once loyal customers who would rather vacation at WDW to go elsewhere and then they discover that they had a great time at the beach and rented an entire house for a week and the trip cost 1/4 of what Disney would have.

Wow. I wish I could just move on from your comment, unfortunately it's too ridiculous not to address.
Yes, I "only" have 2 people to pay for. Myself, a child- and all of the expenses that come with being one person trying to do everything- getting them to private school, sports, childcare for the 55+ hours per week that I work, someone to cook dinner while I am at work, and much more.

My family is a family, the same as any other. And guess what- I don't cry about something being too expensive for us. I either do it or I don't. It has nothing to do with what another family spends, or how many people are in said family.
But FYI- a family of 4 could do Disney for less than we do as 2. A lot less. Our hotel stay alone at Poly was @ 5k, before anything else, and then followed by a week in Key West Florida at the Casa Marina. So stop with a ridiculous statement that "you ONLY have 2, so it costs less than 4".

People travel differently. One has nothing to do with the other. It's why Disney offers so many different types of vacation price points and experiences.

This isn't about comparing what one family spends to another.

As far as comparing Disney to a beach vacation- they aren't the same thing. So it's not a comparison. If you choose to do a beach vacation- great!! They're wonderful! But I don't compare those 2 against each other. I decide what kind of vacation I want, and then go from there.