Could it Be? (EO returning to EPCOT)

[dxwwf3]

I also don't think anyone should be shrugging this off as harmless in that it's limited. ToonTown was limited. The "Year" of a Million Dreams was limited. "Limited" is just a buzz word used to convince people to take trips sooner rather than later so they don't "miss" the particular promotion. If it's popular enough, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear an announcement that the "limited" engagement has been extended due to "our guest's demands".

The things you mentioned we're not nostalgic trips back in time. EO is definitely dated and to people like me who absolutely love 80's pop culture that is part of its charm. They can't get away with having EO play for more than 2 years, unless the crowds prove otherwise and I highly doubt that will be the case. And personally I think 2 years is even longer than what it will stay at DL. 12-18 months is about the right time to me.

 

[WDW1974]

If I could go to Tokyo Disneyland/Disney Sea or Disneyland Paris or even Disneyland Resort as easy or cheap as I could WDW, then I would.

Everyone's circumstances are different. But DL can easily be done for a WDW budget (or even less) from most parts of the USA during the year. DLP isn't pricey, but getting there can be. No doubt. And Tokyo is quite expensive for many folks.

But I'd also use the caveat that many WDW regulars (who claim to be true Disney fans) would never say go 2-3 years without a visit to Orlando if it meant they could visit Tokyo instead.

We still have a fantastic time at WDW, but yes it is very exciting when Disney offers merchandise that I'm personally interested in as a fan. Fans and AP'ers are the red headed step children to those that run WDW and when we get a bone thrown our way, it is very nice.

I don't want a bone. I'm not a dog. I want Disney quality. What I was conditioned to expect starting in the mid-1970s. I don't need retro merchandise or a LE pin or membership to a club (that's made for you, me and anyone who wants to cough up the dough). I don't want old things brought back ... well, yeah I do want one old thing:

I want the WDW I was conditioned to expect ... and sorry to anyone under the age of 25 or folks who never visited in WDW's first quarter century, but it most certainly isn't what we've been getting in the last decade of decline.

And if I thought that they were anywhere close to being ready to refurb the entire Imagination pavilion, I wouldn't mind at all if they decided to not bring EO in and I'm even a big HISTA fan. When you get burned so many times by your favorites being replaced with something that isn't even in the same ball park as what it replaced, you do tend to be overprotective of certain things and that is a fault of my own.

But I still think bringing back EO will please a lot of fans, get national attention for any resort it is brought to, and will be a nice change for a short period of time.

I get what you are saying. I once only expected greatness from Disney and I never was disappointed. But that started changing in the late 1990s and I've become the opposite: a very cynical Spirit. I now fear (if not expect) the worst and, if Disney surprises me, then well ... I'm happy.

But bringing oldies and constantly recycling the magic isn't that.

Bring back Disney quality ... everything from expanded menus to expanded park hours and more entertainment with REAL performers and not foamheads ... keep the parks clean, fresh and sparkling ... keep merchandise fresh too and let's not have the same crap in every gift shop ... have CMs who are FULL-TIME and paid thusly and take pride in their jobs and the Disney Legacy (you can only get by so far with college kids, internationals and seniors) ... add seasonal entertainment that you don't have to pay twice for ... and yeah, add attractions ... quality, immersive family attractions in all parks.

Is that really too much to ask?

 

[TP2000]

I thought many people of that age group (I know I'm just 25, but I was a kid when he was at his peak) would feel that way, but whenever I ask my 8th grade students what they want to listen to when they are working on homework, it is a resounding MJ.

I've got junior high aged relatives in Seattle, and they feel exactly the same way; they are big MJ fans.

And have you seen what kids are wearing these days? They have the fashions and styles of the 80's again, and suddenly the teenagers and college kids all look like it's 1985. At least here in affluent suburban areas of Southern California, that's what the kids are wearing now. :lol:

Something tells me the pictures coming in tomorrow of huge lines for Captain EO at Disneyland will quiet some of the critics.

 

[Dads 2 Boys]

There is no such quality in Captain EO as it will be returning. It's a dated attraction being brought back without any updates, and it's of poor quality (in many respects) by today's standards. Even after I get past the issues of bringing back a Michael Jackson attraction, that still doesn't sit well with me. The parks should be evolving, not stagnating or degrading. The rationale that "Honey I Shrunk the Audience sucks too" is not a legitimate rationale for bringing back EO. It's a cop out.

Being dated is exactly it. Many people here think it's a great idea to bring this back but this attraction was well before the pedophelia issues (sorry...alledged issues :lookaroun). For some reason everyone wants to make him out to be a hero of some sort and while his musical talent and was extraordinary and he was innovative, the other part of his history cannot and should not be overlooked. There is no room for him at WDW or any theme park for that matter.

 

[WDW1974]

It's very interesting to see how the memory of attractions tends to replace the reality of the original time. In some peoples heads, the 'best" attractions are now the ones that are long gone. Yet at the time, the majority wanted EO gone.

Good point. It was considered tired and tacky by the time it left in the 1990s.

And, for the most part, I agree with your point overall. I do still have a soft spot for many of the original EPCOT attractions. Not so much because I felt they were timeless, but rather because they were replaced with far less impressive offerings.

Then, we have situations like 20K being replaced with nothing but stagnant water for a decade followed by a McPooh Playground.

It was an unpopular addition at Paris, and was applauded when gone. Now we want it back? Do some of you want it back for the sake of haivng something "new", or do you really think it was a quality attraction?

Really? I wasn't aware of that. Surprised as MJ's popularity in Europe has never waned like it has in the USA.

And I think many want it back because they (very sadly) believe it's somehow 'new' ... others want it back because they feel there should be some tribute to MJ, which is laughable when you consider the Walt Disney Story disappeared from the MK eons ago and soon will be a foamhead greeting area ... and others just want it back because of some very misplaced nostalgia.

That said, it was a quality attraction. In the mid-1980s!

I personally don't think EO should return to Epcot. Epcot needs an all new attarction in that space and EO will just delay that. We've seen it before, wanted it gone, and that's that. If anyone is desperate to see it, get on the plane to DL.

Bring on that "all-new" experience for Epcot!

Agreed on all counts.

And I think it's moot. Unless the thinking in TDO has changed drastically, it isn't going to happen.

For once, I can totally agree with TDO.

 

[dxwwf3]

Everyone's circumstances are different. But DL can easily be done for a WDW budget (or even less) from most parts of the USA during the year. DLP isn't pricey, but getting there can be. No doubt. And Tokyo is quite expensive for many folks.

WDW is within driving distance from Tennessee and we get Annual Passes and get 3 vacations out of that one pass (One summer, one Christmas, and the next year summer before it expires). It costs a lot more to go to Disneyland, but after going in 2007 for the first time, I'm going to have to go back out there soon no matter how much the airfare costs.

I want the WDW I was conditioned to expect ... and sorry to anyone under the age of 25 or folks who never visited in WDW's first quarter century, but it most certainly isn't what we've been getting in the last decade of decline.

Well I'm 25, so I definitely fit the category you're talking about.

I once only expected greatness from Disney and I never was disappointed. But that started changing in the late 1990s and I've become the opposite

Bring back Disney quality ... everything from expanded menus to expanded park hours and more entertainment with REAL performers and not foamheads ... keep the parks clean, fresh and sparkling ... keep merchandise fresh too and let's not have the same crap in every gift shop ... have CMs who are FULL-TIME and paid thusly and take pride in their jobs and the Disney Legacy (you can only get by so far with college kids, internationals and seniors) ... add seasonal entertainment that you don't have to pay twice for ... and yeah, add attractions ... quality, immersive family attractions in all parks.

Is that really too much to ask?

Couldn't agree more

 

[WDW1974]

Yeah, Iger shot down a "Proposal" sequel because Disney can't sell toys based on the movie.

And "The Proposal" was one of the biggest hits of 2009.

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/02/the_middle_is_toast_at_disney.html

Yep. I heard about that. Any movie with Sandra Bullock AND Betty White in it, would have me there!

But Iger is doing exactly what he supposedly fired D-i-c-k Cook for, focusing exclusively on family fare and franchises and toons (oh and Marvel too!)

Not smart.

 

[WDW1974]

I don't normally have a problem with nostalgia or with nostalgic aspects of WDW returning to the contemporary parks. I think Dreamfinder should return. I think the score to Tomorrow's Child would be fine on SpaceShip Earth. However, I limit my intake of nostalgia to nostalgia that is not self indulgent. Nostaliga merely for nostalgia's sake is dangerous because it implicitly concedes that we don't care if the parks improve--we're satisfied with old technology, old attractions, everything the way it was in 1971, 1982, 1994, or whatever year you thought Disney was at its pinnacle.

I disagree with that. I think nostalgia is only fine when it is embraced because there is a substantive quality to it that warrants retaining. With that retention should come improvements and refinements, adaptations to evolving standards of technology, and other such changes to make that nostalgia a representation of "the best possible" Disney.

The parks should be evolving, not stagnating or degrading. The rationale that "Honey I Shrunk the Audience sucks too" is not a legitimate rationale for bringing back EO. It's a cop out.

An absolutely great post, Figment. If we had a Post of the Week thread, I'd nominate yours.

I quoted a few sections above that I feel are the real meat of the argument and you nailed it.

It's why so much of the stuff I read here comes off as self-indulgent ... for example, think of all the whining if say Disney did the right thing and replaced Wishes and SpectroMagic with new pyro and parade. Hell, there are fans upset that Mickey and Minnie will soon be homeless (hey, it's the worst economy since the Great Depression, why should mice be immune?)

There are very, very few things that are truly untouchable at WDW. And even those things can always be plussed and improved (witness Mansion and HoP's recent redos as examples).

You can't, and shouldn't, live in the past ... be it 1971, 1982 or 1994.

You also can't forget about WHY those eras were so great at WDW, either. And why Disney's change in management philosophies has resulted in a vastly inferior product that many have been conditioned to believe IS the Disney magic.

Anyway, great post again!

 

[WDW1974]

I see the point of your post, and agree in it's idea, but I have to ask...(about what I bolded) how is this " nostalgia for nostalgia's sake?". MJ passed away. There's a reason for all this resurgence in his media and work. I think that's well worth a reason to bring this back.


If it was brought back randomly, with no reason and MJ still alive, sure, I understand. But this isn't unfounded...Without sounding overly histrionic, it's for his memory and for his fan's memories of him, in Disney. Perfect, IMHO.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Sorry Explorer, you know I respect you a lot (even if you need to take some botany and horticulture classes!) but the fact some pop icon died has NOTHING to do with Disney. And certainly no reason for returning this tired old attraction to DL.

How many Disney greats have passed away in the last few years? Should we bring back everything they worked on? That would make more sense than the logic in bringing EO back.

You like MJ? Buy some of his music (yeah, I know ... I'm an old fart who actually has CDs and even something called records) ... download it on your little iPhones and huckleberries.

The guy was an incredibly talented (and troubled) musician who died.

How that has anything to do with Disney escapes me ...

 

[Next Big Thing]

Hell, there are fans upset that Mickey and Minnie will soon be homeless (hey, it's the worst economy since the Great Depression, why should mice be immune?)

Technically, they aren't homeless. Their home is out in Disneyland in Toontown. Their Vacation Home is here in WDW's Toontown Fair. So they'll still have a house, they'll just have to find a new place to vacation.

 

[WDW1974]

I also don't think anyone should be shrugging this off as harmless in that it's limited. ToonTown was limited. The "Year" of a Million Dreams was limited. "Limited" is just a buzz word used to convince people to take trips sooner rather than later so they don't "miss" the particular promotion. If it's popular enough, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear an announcement that the "limited" engagement has been extended due to "our guest's demands". As others who are 'in the know' have stated, it coming only delays an Imagination overhaul. From that perspective alone, it is not harmless, in my opinion.

Nothing is ever 'limited' that is true. I've posted it before, but I'll repeat it here. Disney may be saying MSEP is here just for the summer, but that's not true. They're already planning on running it right through until fall 2011 (and who knows? maybe longer).

When the wand appeared at EPCOT everyone was told it was just for the Milennium Celebration. When that ended a Disney PR hack said that it was being extended indefinitely 'due to its popularity with guests'. ... While it was being constructed the then VP of the park told me it was likely to remain until 2009 for budget reasons. The same reasons the BAH still stands for a few months longer ...

There's no saying how long EO will remain at DL (my money is still on a short run as they do have plans for that facility).

I also think that the attraction will be memorializing Jackson, but I do at least see your point on that, and definitely think it's something upon which reasonable minds could differ. I think that for some people, there will be weeping; probably not for most (however, I don't think it needs weeping to be construed as a memorial exhibit).

I don't believe you'll hear much weeping. But you might hear other stuff. laughter, guffaws, off-color jokes.

But again, Disney isn't about memorializing people. They don't memorialize Walt Disney (nor did he ever want that). A visit to a Disney theme park is supposed to be an escape from the real world.

I loved Phil Hartman. Maybe we should have some memorial outside the Tiki Room since his crazy wife murdered him.

Where does it end?

I also don't have a problem with marketing nostalgia. That's a great tactic, and is clearly successful; I love retro merchandise just as much as the next guy here, too. My issue is when nostalgia is used as a crutch to avoid making positive additions, upgrades, and changes (I also like the return of MSEP; I think it could definitely have used more upgrades over the years, but I think it falls into that second category of nostalgia that clearly has great substance).

I'll bow out, though, as I wouldn't want to over-analyze anything else. Not that this isn't a forum for a niche interest wherein some of the most minor topics receive pages of probing analysis...

I think out of every poster in this thread that you've best articulated your points and why this is a godawful idea.

Fans, especially younger ones, need to stop with their misplaced nostalgia. Disney has always been about nostalgia, but nostalgia for other times and places (say a turn of the century American Main Street ... or an exotic jungle ... or the wild west etc). It has NEVER (until the WDW Jumps The Shark 25th Anniversary) been about Remembering The Magic because we won't be creating any new magic for you as we operate as a public corporation strictly to increase shareholder value at any/all costs.

 

[WDW1974]

Something tells me the pictures coming in tomorrow of huge lines for Captain EO at Disneyland will quiet some of the critics.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it is good or right or quality ... Walmart is way popular ... American Idol is too ... Reality TV, period. ... Texting while driving ... Taco Bell is popular ... Beer is very popular ... and Sarah Palin too.

I don't care if there are lines stretching to Harbor Blvd (and rest assured that after every APer has seen the film once or twice, there won't be any lines) it doesn't make the decision to bring it back the right one.

 

[WDW1974]

Technically, they aren't homeless. Their home is out in Disneyland in Toontown. Their Vacation Home is here in WDW's Toontown Fair. So they'll still have a house, they'll just have to find a new place to vacation.

Someone should tell them about Disney's Best Kept Secret!:drevil:

 

[Next Big Thing]

Nothing is ever 'limited' that is true. I've posted it before, but I'll repeat it here. Disney may be saying MSEP is here just for the summer, but that's not true. They're already planning on running it right through until fall 2011 (and who knows? maybe longer).

I believe it is probably going to be around for a while too. In just about every interview i've heard where people have tried to get confirmation on if Spectro will be back after nightastic, they say something along the lines of "That's the plan, but you never know....MSEP is a very popular parade."

I can see all of those spoiled DL'ers complaining if it doesn't come back and they may do something, but it can't go back out to DCA b/c of WoC and putting it in DL would almost be a bad move imo. I mean, that would be 3 night time entertainment options all running in one park around the same time in MSEP, RDCT and Fantasmic! and I just don't know if that will work out too well at all. Putting it in DCA would be ideal, but crowds for WoC will likely be so large that it would just create problems.

 

[the-reason14]

"Temporary" EO is different than "Temporary" MSEP. One is a parade, and one is a film, you know like the ones you can go to the amc to see that can be changed quickly.

So there is no problem with eo coming back for a temporary engagement at epcot. Yes, its dated, but so is HISTA. The only difference is that more people would go to it. So how is bringing more attention to a dead area a problem?

Hopefully after it leaves they can debut something new and maybe give JIM a refurb that so many have been praying for.

 

[the-reason14]

Being dated is exactly it. Many people here think it's a great idea to bring this back but this attraction was well before the pedophelia issues (sorry...alledged issues :lookaroun). For some reason everyone wants to make him out to be a hero of some sort and while his musical talent and was extraordinary and he was innovative, the other part of his history cannot and should not be overlooked. There is no room for him at WDW or any theme park for that matter.

Uhm yea there is. I never saw eo, but from my knowledge it was showcasing him with the talent that he was blessed with. Its not about his "alleged crimes" that he may or may not have been guilty about. Its about his talent, and the fact that he is no longer with us says that they should honor him and bring it back. And he is not a hero, he was far from it, but he was the greatest thing to happen to music in a long time.

 

[SirGoofy]

Beer is very popular

Whoa...whoa, whoa, whoa. Say all you want about Disney, but stay away from my beer!

:fork:

 

[Scooter]

I saw Captain Eo twice when it was at Epcot.
The first time I saw it I thought it really stunk.
I even went back a second time to see it because I was a Micheal Jackson fan and thought maybe I was just in a bad mood the first time I saw it.
Nope...it stunk again when I saw it the second time.
I Love sci fi films as much as the next guy but you can't just stick someone famous into a film and automatically assume it's going to be well received.

I will use the film/musical The Wiz as an example. They took a bunch of great singers, put them into this musical, thinking it would be a newer, greater version of The Wizard of Oz. That didn't happen.
Now you can find copies of The Wiz for $3 in your local grocery store loser video bins.

Please don't bring this show back to Epcot Disney Execs. It stunk years ago, and the death and subsuquent sudden new found popularity of Micheal Jackson won't change that. It will still stink.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I know you're a big history person, so you like to draw "critical" distinctions on that basis, but I don't see the determinative distinction between linear and non-linear. :lol: I can see it now; 2050 (didn't mean to put '30 before...that's a little early) rolls around and the company decides to offer a "limited engagement" of the 2009 HoP to show Barack Obama's historic oath of office. It will be a great "history lesson to show today's generation one of the speech's of one of the last generation's leaders" for a short time only (obviously I think the current (well, future) presidents would still all be in the HoP, so maybe this is actually a better nostalgic attraction than EO in that it doesn't totally revert!). Regardless of whether an attraction's content is based on linear or non-linear (actual) events, I think bringing back a dated attraction sets a dangerous precedent. I think that flowed from the points in my last post, but I guess not. Laugh at that if you'd like.

I also don't think anyone should be shrugging this off as harmless in that it's limited. ToonTown was limited. The "Year" of a Million Dreams was limited. "Limited" is just a buzz word used to convince people to take trips sooner rather than later so they don't "miss" the particular promotion. If it's popular enough, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear an announcement that the "limited" engagement has been extended due to "our guest's demands". As others who are 'in the know' have stated, it coming only delays an Imagination overhaul. From that perspective alone, it is not harmless, in my opinion.

I also think that the attraction will be memorializing Jackson, but I do at least see your point on that, and definitely think it's something upon which reasonable minds could differ. I think that for some people, there will be weeping; probably not for most (however, I don't think it needs weeping to be construed as a memorial exhibit).

I also don't have a problem with marketing nostalgia. That's a great tactic, and is clearly successful; I love retro merchandise just as much as the next guy here, too. My issue is when nostalgia is used as a crutch to avoid making positive additions, upgrades, and changes (I also like the return of MSEP; I think it could definitely have used more upgrades over the years, but I think it falls into that second category of nostalgia that clearly has great substance).

I'll bow out, though, as I wouldn't want to over-analyze anything else. Not that this isn't a forum for a niche interest wherein some of the most minor topics receive pages of probing analysis...

See, that's the distinction that I think does not make sense. Historical and Linear refers to the fact that that HoP is ALWAYS bounded by current events and by time. EO? Not really? Though it looks a tad dated, it can be put back like this, given the circumstances.


But I appreciate your post.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Sorry Explorer, you know I respect you a lot (even if you need to take some botany and horticulture classes!) but the fact some pop icon died has NOTHING to do with Disney. And certainly no reason for returning this tired old attraction to DL.

How many Disney greats have passed away in the last few years? Should we bring back everything they worked on? That would make more sense than the logic in bringing EO back.

You like MJ? Buy some of his music (yeah, I know ... I'm an old fart who actually has CDs and even something called records) ... download it on your little iPhones and huckleberries.

The guy was an incredibly talented (and troubled) musician who died.

How that has anything to do with Disney escapes me ...

Save for the fact that he had the lead role in a quite popular 3D film? :lol:


Seeing that there's been a slight "revival"...well, not slight, he's been selling more records now...but the fact that there is a revival says something. If people want to see more MJ, and subsequently more EO, why not do it?


Of course, keep it in check, and keep it limited, despite their misuse of the word.

 

[misterID]

I can see EO having an initial big run in DL for a couple months. My big fear is, which was confirmed in this very thread, is that any success, no matter how limited, will be used as an excuse not to refurb Imagination if brought to EPCOT.

Sorry, but if it comes down to EO vs JII refurb, I don't want EO back in the park for even a week. Otherwise I would have no problem with EO coming back for a limited run. But not at the cost of the whole pavillian.