Could it Be? (EO returning to EPCOT)

[Next Big Thing]

Say what?

From what I hear, WDI is supposed to take over the pavilion later on in the year. I've heard of many people who have gone on the backstage tour at EPCOT and during the portion where you go to the old Image Works, there are supposedly things from WDI laying around all over the place so it is possible if they do gain control of it, we could see something happen sooner or later (hopefully sooner though!).

 

[WDW Vacationer]

From what I hear, WDI is supposed to take over the pavilion later on in the year. I've heard of many people who have gone on the backstage tour at EPCOT and during the portion where you go to the old Image Works, there are supposedly things from WDI laying around all over the place so it is possible if they do gain control of it, we could see something happen sooner or later (hopefully sooner though!).

There is a door up there that has either WDI or Walt Disney Imagineering on it.

If you think about it,what better way to celebrate WDW's 40th,than to restore the attraction featuring one of its most beloved characters?!

 

[SirGoofy]

From what I hear, WDI is supposed to take over the pavilion later on in the year. I've heard of many people who have gone on the backstage tour at EPCOT and during the portion where you go to the old Image Works, there are supposedly things from WDI laying around all over the place so it is possible if they do gain control of it, we could see something happen sooner or later (hopefully sooner though!).

WDI's bee up there for a long time, if I remember correctly.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It's very interesting to see how the memory of attractions tends to replace the reality of the original time. In some peoples heads, the 'best" attractions are now the ones that are long gone. Yet at the time, the majority wanted EO gone. It was an unpopular addition at Paris, and was applauded when gone. Now we want it back? Do some of you want it back for the sake of haivng something "new", or do you really think it was a quality attraction?

I personally don't think EO should return to Epcot. Epcot needs an all new attarction in that space and EO will just delay that. We've seen it before, wanted it gone, and that's that. If anyone is desperate to see it, get on the plane to DL.

Bring on that "all-new" experience for Epcot!

Sake of something new, but I would not want it to interfere with anything, such as the JII Refurb.

That said, it's also good for the "fans" or for the History. D23 seems to want to push, or market, that kind of Disney Nostalgia, I'm glad that Disneyland has been smart about it and made it available to everyone. EPCOT should to...

...but for a limited time, and not have it interfere with what should be in the pavilon already.


But alas, it's not a perfect world. :lol:

If EO doesn't happen,this refurb better be announced within 6-12 months, or I'm gonna riot.:lol:

Good plan.:lookaroun

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

WDI's bee up there for a long time, if I remember correctly.

Since 2007 at least. I saw a few of them in 2008, and near freaked out. :lol:

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

From what I hear, WDI is supposed to take over the pavilion later on in the year. I've heard of many people who have gone on the backstage tour at EPCOT and during the portion where you go to the old Image Works, there are supposedly things from WDI laying around all over the place so it is possible if they do gain control of it, we could see something happen sooner or later (hopefully sooner though!).

It's been that way up there for years now, I wouldn't take that as any kind of sign of imminent refurbishment. At least some of what they've been doing up there doesn't have anything to do with Imagination. For example, they were working on stuff for the Waste Management venue in Innoventions East before it opened. So unless you've heard anything besides that...

 

[Next Big Thing]

WDI's bee up there for a long time, if I remember correctly.

That wasn't my point, I was just merely adding on. My point was I've heard from several different places that WDI is supposed to be taking the pavilion over at some point this year.

 

[tnemgif]

I know this is kind of late in the discussion, but if Captain EO returns, I hope they don't retain the air-hose "mice" effect. If I'm watching Michael Jackson in 3D then all of a sudden feel something tickling my legs, you can bet I would be getting my sorry bottom the heck out of there. Just a thought

 

[WDWFigment]

It's very interesting to see how the memory of attractions tends to replace the reality of the original time. In some peoples heads, the 'best" attractions are now the ones that are long gone. Yet at the time, the majority wanted EO gone. It was an unpopular addition at Paris, and was applauded when gone. Now we want it back? Do some of you want it back for the sake of haivng something "new", or do you really think it was a quality attraction?

I personally don't think EO should return to Epcot. Epcot needs an all new attarction in that space and EO will just delay that. We've seen it before, wanted it gone, and that's that. If anyone is desperate to see it, get on the plane to DL.

Bring on that "all-new" experience for Epcot!

I agree completely, and I think it's not so much the "memory of the attraction" replacing the reality of the attraction here. I think, and I know this has been a divisive issue around here so I won't go into depth, it's the reality of the performer being glossed over with his death. Obviously we can't go back in time two years, but I would bet that if we did and showed the general population an excerpt from this video about Michael Jackson as a space commander, most would have absolutely no interest in seeing it. Suddenly, however, the whole world is a Michael Jackson fan.

My point is that this doesn't have so much to do with people being nostalgic for Captain EO (although I'm sure there are plenty who are), I think it has to do with people being nostalgic for Michael Jackson. While Thriller, Billie Jean, etc., were a bit products of their time, they have still aged much better than Captain EO. I wonder what people who have never seen Captain EO (or haven't seen it in a long time) will think. I have showed several friends the videos on YouTube, and they've laughed for the duration, pointing out that it's one of the dumbest things they've ever seen. These people probably aren't representative of the general Disney-going population, but I think the point still stands.

I don't normally have a problem with nostalgia or with nostalgic aspects of WDW returning to the contemporary parks. I think Dreamfinder should return. I think the score to Tomorrow's Child would be fine on SpaceShip Earth. However, I limit my intake of nostalgia to nostalgia that is not self indulgent. Nostaliga merely for nostalgia's sake is dangerous because it implicitly concedes that we don't care if the parks improve--we're satisfied with old technology, old attractions, everything the way it was in 1971, 1982, 1994, or whatever year you thought Disney was at its pinnacle.

I disagree with that. I think nostalgia is only fine when it is embraced because there is a substantive quality to it that warrants retaining. With that retention should come improvements and refinements, adaptations to evolving standards of technology, and other such changes to make that nostalgia a representation of "the best possible" Disney.

There is no such quality in Captain EO as it will be returning. It's a dated attraction being brought back without any updates, and it's of poor quality (in many respects) by today's standards. Even after I get past the issues of bringing back a Michael Jackson attraction, that still doesn't sit well with me. The parks should be evolving, not stagnating or degrading. The rationale that "Honey I Shrunk the Audience sucks too" is not a legitimate rationale for bringing back EO. It's a cop out.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I agree completely, and I think it's not so much the "memory of the attraction" replacing the reality of the attraction here. I think, and I know this has been a divisive issue around here so I won't go into depth, it's the reality of the performer being glossed over with his death. Obviously we can't go back in time two years, but I would bet that if we did and showed the general population an excerpt from this video about Michael Jackson as a space commander, most would have absolutely no interest in seeing it. Suddenly, however, the whole world is a Michael Jackson fan.

My point is that this doesn't have so much to do with people being nostalgic for Captain EO (although I'm sure there are plenty who are), I think it has to do with people being nostalgic for Michael Jackson. While Thriller, Billie Jean, etc., were a bit products of their time, they have still aged much better than Captain EO. I wonder what people who have never seen Captain EO (or haven't seen it in a long time) will think. I have showed several friends the videos on YouTube, and they've laughed for the duration, pointing out that it's one of the dumbest things they've ever seen. These people probably aren't representative of the general Disney-going population, but I think the point still stands.

I don't normally have a problem with nostalgia or with nostalgic aspects of WDW returning to the contemporary parks. I think Dreamfinder should return. I think the score to Tomorrow's Child would be fine on SpaceShip Earth. However, I limit my intake of nostalgia to nostalgia that is not self indulgent. Nostaliga merely for nostalgia's sake is dangerous because it implicitly concedes that we don't care if the parks improve--we're satisfied with old technology, old attractions, everything the way it was in 1971, 1982, 1994, or whatever year you thought Disney was at its pinnacle.

I disagree with that. I think nostalgia is only fine when it is embraced because there is a substantive quality to it that warrants retaining. With that retention should come improvements and refinements, adaptations to evolving standards of technology, and other such changes to make that nostalgia a representation of "the best possible" Disney.

There is no such quality in Captain EO as it will be returning. It's a dated attraction being brought back without any updates, and it's of poor quality (in many respects) by today's standards. Even after I get past the issues of bringing back a Michael Jackson attraction, that still doesn't sit well with me. The parks should be evolving, not stagnating or degrading. The rationale that "Honey I Shrunk the Audience sucks too" is not a legitimate rationale for bringing back EO. It's a cop out.

I see the point of your post, and agree in it's idea, but I have to ask...(about what I bolded) how is this " nostalgia for nostalgia's sake?". MJ passed away. There's a reason for all this resurgence in his media and work. I think that's well worth a reason to bring this back.


If it was brought back randomly, with no reason and MJ still alive, sure, I understand. But this isn't unfounded...Without sounding overly histrionic, it's for his memory and for his fan's memories of him, in Disney. Perfect, IMHO.

 

[WDWFigment]

I see the point of your post, and agree in it's idea, but I have to ask...(about what I bolded) how is this " nostalgia for nostalgia's sake?". MJ passed away. There's a reason for all this resurgence in his media and work. I think that's well worth a reason to bring this back.


If it was brought back randomly, with no reason and MJ still alive, sure, I understand. But this isn't unfounded...Without sounding overly histrionic, it's for his memory and for his fan's memories of him, in Disney. Perfect, IMHO.

As I see it, there are two types of nostalgia with regard to Disney: nostalgia for nostalgia's sake wherein people want something back or want to generally "experience the nostalgic item" because they miss it or it reminds them of the past. I don't think Disney should be running the parks, determining what attractions are in operation, based upon that type of nostalgia.

The second type of nostalgia occurs when individuals long for something because they miss its substantive quality. Not just wanting it back because it reminds them of the past--wanting it back because of its high quality. I am more accepting of those cases, but even then I don't agree with bringing the item (I'm typically using this interchangeably with attraction here) back unchanged. I think I explained this reasonably well in my previous post, but hopefully this supplements that post reasonably well.

 

[WDWFigment]

I see the point of your post, and agree in it's idea, but I have to ask...(about what I bolded) how is this " nostalgia for nostalgia's sake?". MJ passed away. There's a reason for all this resurgence in his media and work. I think that's well worth a reason to bring this back.


If it was brought back randomly, with no reason and MJ still alive, sure, I understand. But this isn't unfounded...Without sounding overly histrionic, it's for his memory and for his fan's memories of him, in Disney. Perfect, IMHO.

I think your post begs the question of whether it's the appropriate role of Disney to serve as a memorial for anyone, let alone Michael Jackson.

My answer to the former question would have been "no." My answer to the latter question is "NO!!!" Again, I won't get into my reasoning for the difference between the two responses (I think that can be easily inferred) as that debate has been done to death here.

However, the former question is a threshold question to the latter anyway, so if I resolve that in the negative, I don't reach the latter. I understand that fans of celebrities grieve upon the celebrity's death. I think having an appropriate outlet to honor the person is fine, but why should that be Disney. Because they starred in a Disney film or Disney attraction? Why? (I suppose the easy counter here is "why not?") I would argue against it because it potentially could defeat the purpose of the contemporary theming in an area of the parks (and we all pontificate about the importance of theming!); it could have an odd result with respect to the attraction's operational staleness (what happens if Obama dies in 2030 and there is similar resurgence in his popularity...should HoP return to the Obama version), and; it generally flies in the face of the mantra of technical and show progress that exists with WDI. To me, I see no greater instance of the parks acting as museums than to reintroduce attractions as "exhibits" honoring their dead stars.

I think there are potentially other issues, but quite simply, treating Disney as a memorial for our favorite fallen celebrities, while potentially a good short term business decision for the parks, is a poor long term precedential decision.

 

[Roxas]

Personally I hope Captain EO doesn't come to EPCOT, Michael Jackson is not someone I would like to associate with Disney.

I am now 18, I grew up in the 90's as far as a lot of my generation is concerned Michael Jackson is that strange guy they put on trial for Child Abuse. Yes he was acquitted but he also admitted to sharing a bed with small children. Perhaps it's because I never lived through the hype when he was at the pinnacle of his fame and only ever knew him as a washed up artist but I can't think of anyone I'd like to see less at Disney. Yes he was a good musician but that doesn't mean it's appropriate to homage him at a childrens theme park.

Plus having a dead guy on screen in 3D would be incredibly creepy.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

As I see it, there are two types of nostalgia with regard to Disney: nostalgia for nostalgia's sake wherein people want something back or want to generally "experience the nostalgic item" because they miss it or it reminds them of the past. I don't think Disney should be running the parks, determining what attractions are in operation, based upon that type of nostalgia.

The second type of nostalgia occurs when individuals long for something because they miss its substantive quality. Not just wanting it back because it reminds them of the past--wanting it back because of its high quality. I am more accepting of those cases, but even then I don't agree with bringing the item (I'm typically using this interchangeably with attraction here) back unchanged. I think I explained this reasonably well in my previous post, but hopefully this supplements that post reasonably well.

I actually think that that's what Disney does best, they've always marketed nostalgia, be it the created kind that we find on Main Street USA, or the actual kind, like bringing back an old favorite. Such as the Main Street Electrical Parade...and now Captain EO.

How's that a bad thing, as put by you, is not picked up by me.:shrug:

I think your post begs the question of whether it's the appropriate role of Disney to serve as a memorial for anyone, let alone Michael Jackson.

My answer to the former question would have been "no." My answer to the latter question is "NO!!!" Again, I won't get into my reasoning for the difference between the two responses (I think that can be easily inferred) as that debate has been done to death here.

However, the former question is a threshold question to the latter anyway, so if I resolve that in the negative, I don't reach the latter. I understand that fans of celebrities grieve upon the celebrity's death. I think having an appropriate outlet to honor the person is fine, but why should that be Disney. Because they starred in a Disney film or Disney attraction? Why? (I suppose the easy counter here is "why not?") I would argue against it because it potentially could defeat the purpose of the contemporary theming in an area of the parks (and we all pontificate about the importance of theming!); it could have an odd result with respect to the attraction's operational staleness (what happens if Obama dies in 2030 and there is similar resurgence in his popularity...should HoP return to the Obama version), and; it generally flies in the face of the mantra of technical and show progress that exists with WDI. To me, I see no greater instance of the parks acting as museums than to reintroduce attractions as "exhibits" honoring their dead stars.

I think there are potentially other issues, but quite simply, treating Disney as a memorial for our favorite fallen celebrities, while potentially a good short term business decision for the parks, is a poor long term precedential decision.

The only reason I think this is appropriate is seeing MJ's ties to the company, and how prominent this attraction was, as we've seen it has quite the following. That makes it accessible to a current Disneyland. No other reason.


Sorry...but...the the HoP analogy is weak. :lol: That's History, it's linear, it's not supposed to be the type of nostalgia that's based in time, it's supposed to be based in quality, like you mentioned. Again, I don't see any "Memorializing" going on. That connotes weeping masses gathering in Tomorroland to see MJ one last time. :lol: Not so...Disneyland is making this more of a "Historic" rebranding. They are talking about the spectacle, the music, again, not to be histrionic, the memories of a Disneyland attraction. Nothing really wrong with that.

 

[the-reason14]

I guess people think it will last longer than a couple of months if it comes. Now if EO were to be back for a couple of years, then it wouldn't be the best decision. I wish they would put it in for the rest of the year, starting in Summer, which would get the resort some great publicity, allow visitors this year to take a stroll down memory lane and then move on with a new show/attraction expansion.

I agree. I mean, its not like HISTA pulls in the numbers as EO more than likely would. So if they did put it there, they can have more foot traffic and maybe a refurbed imagination would come sooner.

 

[krankenstein]

I think your post begs the question of whether it's the appropriate role of Disney to serve as a memorial for anyone, let alone Michael Jackson.

My answer to the former question would have been "no." My answer to the latter question is "NO!!!" Again, I won't get into my reasoning for the difference between the two responses (I think that can be easily inferred) as that debate has been done to death here.

However, the former question is a threshold question to the latter anyway, so if I resolve that in the negative, I don't reach the latter. I understand that fans of celebrities grieve upon the celebrity's death. I think having an appropriate outlet to honor the person is fine, but why should that be Disney. Because they starred in a Disney film or Disney attraction? Why? (I suppose the easy counter here is "why not?") I would argue against it because it potentially could defeat the purpose of the contemporary theming in an area of the parks (and we all pontificate about the importance of theming!); it could have an odd result with respect to the attraction's operational staleness (what happens if Obama dies in 2030 and there is similar resurgence in his popularity...should HoP return to the Obama version), and; it generally flies in the face of the mantra of technical and show progress that exists with WDI. To me, I see no greater instance of the parks acting as museums than to reintroduce attractions as "exhibits" honoring their dead stars.

I think there are potentially other issues, but quite simply, treating Disney as a memorial for our favorite fallen celebrities, while potentially a good short term business decision for the parks, is a poor long term precedential decision.

Over analyzing a bit, me thinks. :lookaroun

Seriously, why does it matter if someone is nostalgia for an attraction or not. If it did come, it would be a limited "tribute" engagement. Do I care if EO comes or not? Nope, it makes absolutely no difference to me! If it makes others happy and bumps attendance, what is really the harm? :shrug:

 

[wm49rs]

Over analyzing a bit, me thinks. :lookaroun

Seriously, why does it matter if someone is nostalgia for an attraction or not. If it did come, it would be a limited "tribute" engagement. Do I care if EO comes or not? Nope, it makes absolutely no difference to me! If it makes others happy and bumps attendance, what is really the harm? :shrug:

I agree. For both the bump in attendance and the happiness will be as fleeting at the potential return of EO itself. Neither will last very long, either in DL, or if it does come out to EPCOT. If people enjoy it while it's around, more power to them. Personally, I'd just be glad if it reduces the lines elsewhere.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

I agree. For both the bump in attendance and the happiness will be as fleeting at the potential return of EO itself. Neither will last very long, either in DL, or if it does come out to EPCOT. If people enjoy it while it's around, more power to them. Personally, I'd just be glad if it reduces the lines elsewhere.

Perfect stance. It's isolated, as it were. Not bothering anyone who does not want to see it. :lol:

 

[WDWFigment]

I actually think that that's what Disney does best, they've always marketed nostalgia, be it the created kind that we find on Main Street USA, or the actual kind, like bringing back an old favorite. Such as the Main Street Electrical Parade...and now Captain EO.

How's that a bad thing, as put by you, is not picked up by me.:shrug:


The only reason I think this is appropriate is seeing MJ's ties to the company, and how prominent this attraction was, as we've seen it has quite the following. That makes it accessible to a current Disneyland. No other reason.


Sorry...but...the the HoP analogy is weak. :lol: That's History, it's linear, it's not supposed to be the type of nostalgia that's based in time, it's supposed to be based in quality, like you mentioned. Again, I don't see any "Memorializing" going on. That connotes weeping masses gathering in Tomorroland to see MJ one last time. :lol: Not so...Disneyland is making this more of a "Historic" rebranding. They are talking about the spectacle, the music, again, not to be histrionic, the memories of a Disneyland attraction. Nothing really wrong with that.

I know you're a big history person, so you like to draw "critical" distinctions on that basis, but I don't see the determinative distinction between linear and non-linear. :lol: I can see it now; 2050 (didn't mean to put '30 before...that's a little early) rolls around and the company decides to offer a "limited engagement" of the 2009 HoP to show Barack Obama's historic oath of office. It will be a great "history lesson to show today's generation one of the speech's of one of the last generation's leaders" for a short time only (obviously I think the current (well, future) presidents would still all be in the HoP, so maybe this is actually a better nostalgic attraction than EO in that it doesn't totally revert!). Regardless of whether an attraction's content is based on linear or non-linear (actual) events, I think bringing back a dated attraction sets a dangerous precedent. I think that flowed from the points in my last post, but I guess not. Laugh at that if you'd like.

I also don't think anyone should be shrugging this off as harmless in that it's limited. ToonTown was limited. The "Year" of a Million Dreams was limited. "Limited" is just a buzz word used to convince people to take trips sooner rather than later so they don't "miss" the particular promotion. If it's popular enough, I wouldn't be surprised if we hear an announcement that the "limited" engagement has been extended due to "our guest's demands". As others who are 'in the know' have stated, it coming only delays an Imagination overhaul. From that perspective alone, it is not harmless, in my opinion.

I also think that the attraction will be memorializing Jackson, but I do at least see your point on that, and definitely think it's something upon which reasonable minds could differ. I think that for some people, there will be weeping; probably not for most (however, I don't think it needs weeping to be construed as a memorial exhibit).

I also don't have a problem with marketing nostalgia. That's a great tactic, and is clearly successful; I love retro merchandise just as much as the next guy here, too. My issue is when nostalgia is used as a crutch to avoid making positive additions, upgrades, and changes (I also like the return of MSEP; I think it could definitely have used more upgrades over the years, but I think it falls into that second category of nostalgia that clearly has great substance).

I'll bow out, though, as I wouldn't want to over-analyze anything else. Not that this isn't a forum for a niche interest wherein some of the most minor topics receive pages of probing analysis...

 

[dxwwf3]

I am now 18, I grew up in the 90's as far as a lot of my generation is concerned Michael Jackson is that strange guy they put on trial for Child Abuse.

I thought many people of that age group (I know I'm just 25, but I was a kid when he was at his peak) would feel that way, but whenever I ask my 8th grade students what they want to listen to when they are working on homework, it is a resounding MJ. Now obviously they know I can't play most current pop music because of the content, but I was still shocked when the kids were talking about seeing "This Is It" and sing along to the songs. Obviously this is just about 100 kids in a small town school, but I expected them to be the way you described and my group couldn't be further away. :shrug: