Politics Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

This thread contains political discussion related to the original thread topic

brianstl

Well-Known Member
You are wrong. Nobody has actually died from Covid...it’s all a grand conspiracy. All the doctors (who spent years in medical school and practice to get to where they are now) are finding it worthwhile to throw away their careers to be part of this great conspiracy. The grieving family members are just crisis actors. Same with the hospital workers being interviewed. Can someone pass me the tin foil, I need to make my hat a little bigger ;)
Nobody is saying anything close to that. We are facing a huge crisis with COVID-19 in this country. When we see an increase in COVID-19 deaths, that means there is an increase in COVID-19 deaths. It doesn't mean that the total count hasn't been inflated to some degree all along by the way deaths are added to the count.

We got people on Twitter and in some cases real journalists that think they are some kind of internet sleuths that believe they have uncovered some grand conspiracy that COVID-19 deaths are being massively undercounted because this huge increase in deaths pneumonia. They don't realize that those deaths are being counted in both the pneumonia count and the COVID-19 count along with any other condition listed. There aren't undercounts happening but overcounts happening in multiple causes of death counts because we aren't dealing with finalized data. You can not compare this year's data to any other year's data until it is finalized and 1 cause of death is assigned.

We live in world where incomplete, misinterpreted and flat out intentionally wrong information reigns supreme on all sides. Pointing out situations where these things occur isn't putting on a tin foil hat, it is just stating facts.
 

TJ Vazquez

Premium Member
In the Parks
No
Huh...would you look at that.
Let's equate that to our situation, that is 10.8% less deaths in the UK then originally reported. That would equate to 17,929 less deaths in the US. Let me ask you, does that change our situation or change your mind on the seriousness of this situation. It shouldn't, its still an extremely bad situation and wait until the fall.
 

brianstl

Well-Known Member
That death was included in our statistics at the time. Maybe it has subsequently been removed, I'm not sure.

That said, your point is well taken and I'll say I trust the statistics much more than I trust the journalism. It's bad journalism that has propagated the lie that coronavirus deaths are significant among young, healthy people for example.
It won't be removed until the after the end of year and the CDC finalizes their data.
 

brianstl

Well-Known Member
And that doesn’t factor in the decrease in deaths from a lack of traffic accidents and workplace accidents while a large portion of the population was under stay at home orders.
Traffic accident fatalities have seen an actual huge spike as people are driving much faster as road congestion has decreased.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Traffic accident fatalities have seen an actual huge spike as people are driving much faster as road congestion has decreased.
https://www.newsmax.com/health/heal...dent-fatal-stay-at-home/2020/04/17/id/963388/
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
Premium Member

 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Nobody is saying anything close to that. We are facing a huge crisis with COVID-19 in this country. When we see an increase in COVID-19 deaths, that means there is an increase in COVID-19 deaths. It doesn't mean that the total count hasn't been inflated to some degree all along by the way deaths are added to the count.

We got people on Twitter and in some cases real journalists that think they are some kind of internet sleuths that believe they have uncovered some grand conspiracy that COVID-19 deaths are being massively undercounted because this huge increase in deaths pneumonia. They don't realize that those deaths are being counted in both the pneumonia count and the COVID-19 count along with any other condition listed. There aren't undercounts happening but overcounts happening in multiple causes of death counts because we aren't dealing with finalized data. You can not compare this year's data to any other year's data until it is finalized and 1 cause of death is assigned.

We live in world where incomplete, misinterpreted and flat out intentionally wrong information reigns supreme on all sides. Pointing out situations where these things occur isn't putting on a tin foil hat, it is just stating facts.
It may just be that nobody cared before, but this is nothing new. It happens with most causes of death. If someone gets shot in the head and dies instantly it’s pretty cut and dry. With any disease there’s almost always multiple contributing factors. It’s not as cut and dry as people want it to be. That doesn’t mean it’s being intentionally done to fear monger or trick people it’s just the way it is. Google H1N1 worldwide pandemic and you will find multiple sources with a different death count. Again, not a conspiracy just the way it is because not all reporting is great and not all deaths are cut and dry. The CDC officially gives a range not even a total. They also didn’t issue the final report with their final numbers until a few years after the outbreak. Again, common practice. So the outrage over the UK changing their number is likely to be repeated again and again as everyone finalizes numbers. You personally may not have been talking about it as a conspiracy, but others called the actions malicious and said hospitals looking to pad the numbers for their bottom line. That’s tin foil hat stuff any way you slice it.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member

So is Spain the Myrtle Beach of Europe? ;););)
 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
7900 cases yesterday approximately; again, we're gently rolling down the curve and plateauing, not flattening it; time will tell if this "Sweden method" works.
 

brianstl

Well-Known Member
https://www.newsmax.com/health/heal...dent-fatal-stay-at-home/2020/04/17/id/963388/
You are correct. That is what I get for just looking at some headlines and not reading the data. I am guilty of what I just accused others of.

While the death rate is up 25.5%, the actual death count is down by 8%. The seemingly conflicting percentages are the result of the dramatic drop in miles driven.

 

SamusAranX

Well-Known Member
https://www.newsmax.com/health/heal...dent-fatal-stay-at-home/2020/04/17/id/963388/

I mean, this definitely is true just from common sense and the fact that insurance companies, even for profit ones (!) returned premium credits!
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
It may just be that nobody cared before, but this is nothing new. It happens with most causes of death. If someone gets shot in the head and dies instantly it’s pretty cut and dry. With any disease there’s almost always multiple contributing factors. It’s not as cut and dry as people want it to be. That doesn’t mean it’s being intentionally done to fear monger or trick people it’s just the way it is. Google H1N1 worldwide pandemic and you will find multiple sources with a different death count. Again, not a conspiracy just the way it is because not all reporting is great and not all deaths are cut and dry. The CDC officially gives a range not even a total. They also didn’t issue the final report with their final numbers until a few years after the outbreak. Again, common practice. So the outrage over the UK changing their number is likely to be repeated again and again as everyone finalizes numbers. You personally may not have been talking about it as a conspiracy, but others called the actions malicious and said hospitals looking to pad the numbers for their bottom line. That’s tin foil hat stuff any way you slice it.
Just a few follow up points.

1st: As you noted, the death of a hospitalized patient is almost never a matter of "cause of death: pneumonia" without any other contributions. It is often a combination of various issues, like septic shock, renal failure, NSTEMI, etc. When someone with poor overall health gets severely ill, multiple organs start to go down the toilet, despite the initial inciting disease starting in, lets say, the lungs or bladder. There just usually isn't a cut-and-dry single cause or contributor.

2nd: Death certificates are filled out by the attending physician, who may be a hospital employee, or an independent practitioner who has practice rights at the hospital. Not a hospital administrator. In the states where I have practiced, the certificate gets filed electronically in a secure system. Only medical providers registered in that state can fill out or alter the information, and once it is finalized, nobody else can change it. This is as much of a legal document as the rest of the medical record, and the same penalties for deliberate falsification apply. Although there is some level of subjectivity involved in what to include, it is usually filled out in the best judgement of the person who knows the case best, the attending physician. The idea that thousands of medical providers across the globe are deliberately conspiring to fabricate medical data for... oh, I don't know, reasons of some kind, is simply preposterous, and downright insulting.
 

DCBaker

Well-Known Member
Numbers are out - (note the * on the results for 8/11)

They did not include the "change in deaths since previous report" - there were 148 new reported deaths.

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