Considering driving instead of flying because of TSA

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Sadiebird

Member
I have a trip to WDW planned for May 2011. I've already purchased my flights, but I'm seriously considering requesting a refund based on all the stories I've been reading about the invasive security procedures being used by the TSA. I don't have a problem going through a metal detector or having my bag searched. I don't even have a problem with a standard pat down. But I do have a problem with being strip searched by a machine. And if I choose to opt out of that, I also have a problem with a pat down that involves touching my private areas. I don't want to subject myself or my 5 year old son to these things so that we can get on a plane and fly to Disney World. I'd rather drive 17 hours in a car. My husband has convinced me to wait until closer to our trip to get a refund on the plane tickets, just in case the TSA decides to back down on their procedures. I'm just wondering if anyone else is feeling this way. I can't believe this is the direction our country is heading. :(
 

TDF

Well-Known Member
This is the side I don't get. Don't teens and children go to the doctor? I know I didn't love the old "turn your head and cough" when I was a kid, but you had to do it to play sports so we did it. I realize that TSA agents are not doctors, but really, another person is another person. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I have a daughter (about to have a second) and I just can't picture myself getting worried about someone scanning my kids. I'd rather have someone scan my daughters or even pat them down (in a completly professional way, as I'd guess a vast, overwhelming majority is) than I would have some wackjob blow up a plane we're on.

Again, it all comes down to what people are comfortable with. I'm 100% ok with all the security measures and will continue to fly rather than spend the extra few days on the road.

I have 4 kids, 3 girls and 1 boy....the difference lies in they have a realtionship with their doctor, know who he is and trust him. I don't think my older 2 daughters (16 and 14) would have a problem with the scan or a professional pat down, but my 2 younger kids will. My 5 year old is terrified of quite a few things and I have a feeling if she would have to go through the scan she would flip out but then she would have to get a pat down which could be worse for her and possibly the TSA agent. Then my 2 year old would see this then follow suit. I know why they have to do it, some nut job would have their kid be the patsy....but this is better than a 12 hour drive with them.

Half hour into any drive my 5 year old tells me 'I can't take it anymore'....I would pull my hair out in the drive....so the plane is the lesser of two evils

That's my point. I mean you gotta do what you need to so you can get on with your life and vacation but a random TSA dude vs your personal DR? Think about it.
 
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slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
This is the side I don't get. Don't teens and children go to the doctor? I know I didn't love the old "turn your head and cough" when I was a kid, but you had to do it to play sports so we did it. I realize that TSA agents are not doctors, but really, another person is another person. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I have a daughter (about to have a second) and I just can't picture myself getting worried about someone scanning my kids.
Great, so I'll come over to give your kids a hernia exam, if anyone is as good as a doctor. Thursday, 2:30 OK with you?

Lest it need to be said, I'm joking. But the rather cavalier tone you had with strangers, whose personal history and on-the-job training may leave a lot to the imagination, potentially touching your child, seemed rather odd to me. My daughter's 2 and change. This past Halloween, she really didn't want to go trick-or treating. She put on a costume, we took a walk to visit relatives. She didn't want anyone giving her candy and I had to hold her. Most of those people were not in costume, or at least no in scary costumes or masks. All smiling, all complimentary and sweet, and she still was scared. Now replace those people with strangers who are less-than-cheery, in a strange surrounding for a child, trying to be imposing and authoritative so no one gives 'em any sass-mouth...I would do as much as I could to prevent my child from having to deal with that. Hell, I don't think *I* should have to deal with that. I do travel occasionally for work, but if driving is an option, I do it. Mostly because of the invasion-of-privacy issues regarding airport security. I don't mind flying. But what we go through for the ILLUSION of security is ridiculous. Again, ILLUSION of security. As others have written, these machines are great for finding things that certain people are too stupid to hide better. But if a criminal wants to go to extremes to sneak in a weapon, they will. Meanwhile, we're a nation getting our junk photographed and occasionally interrogated like criminals by people whose understanding of the law is often questionable, so that we can feel safer (AND paying for it).

Most times we've gone to WDW, we've driven. Our first trip, we flew down, but an impending hurricane made us cut the trip a day short and drive our rental car all the way up to Philly Airport.

Since then, we've always driven, except for the last time, our first with li'l Slapperina, where we took the Autotrain from Lorton, VA to Sanford FL. Between my wife not wanting to fly, my loathing of airport "security" and our worries that our baby would be in a germ machine before she was old enough to get flu shots, not-flying was a no-brainer, but I was worried about making the drive with such a small child who needed to be held a lot. Plus it was during the ridiculous gas prices of 2008, so it seemed like a nicer option. Plus, with the wee one, we figured we'd have to stop over for the night somewhere, so this felt like we could both sleep and still keep moving :D

We paid extra to have a private room, but otherwise, the cost is roughly comparable to airfare, plus you get dinner and breakfast. The AutoTrain can only be taken if you bring your car, but the beauty of that is that a: you don't have to rent a car once you're in Florida, b: you're not putting those extra 1600 miles on your car (there and back) and c: you can then pack more without having to pay airport fees, just keep it in the car, and only bring on the train what you'll need for the night. Our private room had its own bathroom/shower, you had an attendant who would provide turndown service at night, and because the baby was being fussy, they even arranged to have our meals brought to our room as opposed to the dining car. There was also a lounge where you could group together, have drinks, watch a movie (they also had a "Happy hour" wine tasting before departure. We had my laptop in our room with plenty of movies to watch. The only "con" was that the baby felt uncomfortable not being in her crib or pack-n-play, so I had to hold her the entire night so she'd sleep. I'd like to think, if we did it again, she'd be in better shape to at least sleep to one of the two of us. Just for chucks and giggles, I checked prices for when we plan to go to WDW again. For the three of us, with a AAA discount, it's under 800 (plus the gas it'd take to get from our house to the train station and back again, plus an hour's drive from Sanford to Orlando), and we'd have a car. For three tickts on jetblue from Newark to Orlando, it'd be over 1000 dollars, plus travel to and from the airport, parking if we drove ourselves, or taxi/car service if no one could drive us, and we'd probably want a rental car. Travelocity was kinder, making it about 700 dollars, though again, we'd have to get to and from the airport, and if we wanted a rental car, the final price would be more than what we'd pay to go by Autotrain, AND with none of the airport hassles.
 
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tizzo

Member
This is the side I don't get. Don't teens and children go to the doctor? I know I didn't love the old "turn your head and cough" when I was a kid, but you had to do it to play sports so we did it. I realize that TSA agents are not doctors, but really, another person is another person. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I have a daughter (about to have a second) and I just can't picture myself getting worried about someone scanning my kids. I'd rather have someone scan my daughters or even pat them down (in a completly professional way, as I'd guess a vast, overwhelming majority is) than I would have some wackjob blow up a plane we're on.

Again, it all comes down to what people are comfortable with. I'm 100% ok with all the security measures and will continue to fly rather than spend the extra few days on the road.

I know privacy gets most of the airplay, but the much larger concern, at least for me, is health and safety. TSA and HHS have put out some information on the amount and type of radiation you're exposed to, particularly in the X-Ray version of the machine, but both the safety of the dosage they claim the machine gives, and the reliability of their dosage numbers, are in doubt. And whatever risk there is will affect children disproportionately.

As for the pat-downs, TSA agents have gone on record that the primary purpose of recent changes to the pat-down procedure is to discourage those who would opt out of the scanner. In other words, the pat-down is going to be unpleasant - it's intended to be.

If forced to fly (which I may be for work) I for one will choose the pat-down (and will hold nothing against the TSA agent on the basis that I would not willingly change places with him for his salary and mine combined). My wife on the other hand feels the same about the machines, but differently about the pat-downs, and will likely not be flying again until the issue is resolved.
 
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tizzo

Member
I provided a link on the top of the page of images that were leaked. I understand where you're coming from and all, but did you take a moment to actually look at the pictures that were leaked from the TSA files? We're not exactly talking about high definition here, are you naked in the images... yes, to a degree. And I stress the degree, the images are whited out and not defined like the way our minds think the scans will come out.

Note that those images (which were linked by the US Marshall service and are from a FL courthouse, not TSA) are actually from an article at the same site, and it clearly states that the images are from the mm-wave machines. There is another technology in use called X-ray backscatter, that produces considerably more explicit images.

As I mentioned elsewhere, there is also some dispute over the quantity of radiation the subject is exposed to and what the possible health effects may be.
 
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PhilharMagician

Well-Known Member

I really did not see anything bad in the video, even the childs father did not act like he was disturbed about what happened. He basically said that the TSA officer could have been a little more child friendly. The mother also did not seem offended and was trying to calm her daughter down. I have seen plenty of 3 Y/O temper tantrums over a lot less than a bear being taken away. As a parent it is sometimes almost impossible to control a temper tantrum, you sometimes need to let the child get it out of their system and talk to them about it later. It has to be a tough job for the TSA officer also in that kind of a situation. They are required to follow a set of rules or possibly be repremanded. As the TSA supervisor that was interviewed said that they need to train their employees how to better handle children in these situations.

However it is unreasonable until a terrorist uses a child and/or their bear to hide expolsives, gun or other devices and take control of another plane. Then many families could loose loved ones or wipe out the entire families. I am not saying this particular family was doing that, but how do we really know that until checked? The girl set of the detector twice and that tells them there could be a problem. Or do we just let her go because she is a 3 Y/O girl and nothing would ever happen?

It would be a wonderful world if there were no terrorists, murderers and phsyco's but unfortunately that is not the world we live in.

By the looks of those leaked scans, I rather strip down completely. Those scans were not flattering at all. I don't want people to think of me as a giant white blur!
 
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captainkidd

Well-Known Member
I really did not see anything bad in the video, even the childs father did not act like he was disturbed about what happened. He basically said that the TSA officer could have been a little more child friendly. The mother also did not seem offended and was trying to calm her daughter down. I have seen plenty of 3 Y/O temper tantrums over a lot less than a bear being taken away. As a parent it is sometimes almost impossible to control a temper tantrum, you sometimes need to let the child get it out of their system and talk to them about it later. It has to be a tough job for the TSA officer also in that kind of a situation. They are required to follow a set of rules or possibly be repremanded. As the TSA supervisor that was interviewed said that they need to train their employees how to better handle children in these situations.

However it is unreasonable until a terrorist uses a child and/or their bear to hide expolsives, gun or other devices and take control of another plane. Then many families could loose loved ones or wipe out the entire families. I am not saying this particular family was doing that, but how do we really know that until checked? The girl set of the detector twice and that tells them there could be a problem. Or do we just let her go because she is a 3 Y/O girl and nothing would ever happen?

It would be a wonderful world if there were no terrorists, murderers and phsyco's but unfortunately that is not the world we live in.

By the looks of those leaked scans, I rather strip down completely. Those scans were not flattering at all. I don't want people to think of me as a giant white blur!

Thinking about it as a father, if that were one of my 3 year old boys, I'd be pretty damn unhappy about it too.
 
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WDWmazprty

Well-Known Member
This might be an alternative to the pat downs.....

picture.php



:lookaroun
 
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timeman

Active Member
I always drive to Florida, not because I don't want to fly but because I like having my car so I can go where ever I want to. It usually costs me around $150 round trip for gas lately. If I had to drive farther I would probably end up flying.

The only problem I have with the security features that the TSA has set up is that it is all for show. You as a passenger are no more secure now than you were before 9/11. The only part that is more secure now than before is the airports and the luggage compartments in the planes as they do screen those good. If a terrorist wants to get a weapon or even a bomb on more it wouldn't be hard. You can look at the news about the guy who was able to board a plane made up to look like an old man even though he was in his 20s show you how secure we are.

I definitely would not let them do the pat down that they are doing now and the scanner I'm not so sure about right now.
 
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Phonedave

Well-Known Member
I consider that to be involuntary. You either do it or else isn't voluntary.


Last I checked, flying (like driving) was not a right.

Some State have helmet laws. If you CHOOSE to ride a motorcycle, you wear the helmet. Now, I have other solutions for the helmet laws, but they are a bit impractical in application (but correct in theory)

-dave
 
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Phonedave

Well-Known Member
On my son's 5th Bday this past August, we surprised him and his 2 year old sister with a trip to WDW. We travel a lot. My son has probably flown over 50 times, and my daughter over 20. It's never been a problem. However this time we went through security and I showed the TSA agent our boarding passes and my wife's and my driver's licences. He looked at my son's boarding pass and asked him what my son's name was. My son whipsered "Tommy" being a little shy. The TSA agent then said "What, speak up." At which point my son again said "Tommy" and hid somewhat behind my leg. Then the TSA agent asked him who I was in a serious tone. Our last names are the same. My son froze up and didn't answer. This occured for the next 2-3 minutes as people behind us were getting exasperated. I finally realized that my wife had the kids' passport cards and we showed them to the TSA agent and he finally let us through. I thought it was unbelievable that he wasn't going to let us pass because my just-turned-five year old son was intimidated and wouldn't answer his question. Has this ever happened to anyone else? I'm all in favor of trying to keep us safe, but this, really?!?!?

Also, in terms of the body scanner thing, I'm a family doc, so my sense of modesty has been lost as I start almost every day looking where the sun don't shine. If some guy want to look at my stuff, whatever.

I can understand the WHY, but not the HOW.

Sure, I can see why they want to check that the kid is yours, not only for the security of the plane, but to make sure the kid is not being forced onto the plane. But you would ask the kid in a friendly tone, and if you have half a brain you can ask questions that give the answers, but not seem like questions. "Hey, when I was your age, I loved to play baseball with my dad. Do you and your dad here every play baseball together?" Ask a question like that and you will get a more than likely honest response from the kid.


-dave
 
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Phonedave

Well-Known Member
Just an observation.

It seems that many of the people who are willing to drive and have made a comparison live a good distance from the airport. All list reasons such as "plus a 2 hour drive to the airport"

Maybe that's why flying is still a choice for me. I have a choice of 3 international airports within 30 minutes of my house (well, if traffic plays nice). I can usualy find a flight to where I want, when I want, and at a semi-decent price.

Plus when people list "waiting 2 hours in the airport as opposed to in the car which is your own personal space" I spend my 2 hours in the airport in the club room, eating free food, drinking free drinks, and even taking a shower if the spirit moves me. I guess it is all about how we each experience flying.

-dave
 
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LeafsFanNL

Active Member
After reading about the new pat down rules, and how you are singled out and essentially probed in your nether regions, and the growing inventory of these scanners in the US, I don't know that I'll be keen to take a chance on subjecting my kids to this in the near future.
 
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harveyt0206

Well-Known Member
I am not a fan of the new pat down rules at all. It is giving me a panic attack to think about it, but I will still choose to fly because 16 hours in the car is too much for me (motion sickness).

Where I have a real problem is the way our personal items are left at the end of the conveyor belt after being scanned while you are asked to stand to the side until the "all clear" is given from your scan. We traveled in September and it was my first experience with the scanner. Of course, you have to take off your shoes, jacket and remove all your electronics (phone, computer, i-pod, etc...) from your bag and place them in the lovely gray containers to go down the conveyor belt. As our personal items went through the conveyor I was asked to step into the full body scanner. After the scan took place, I was asked to move to a "holding area" until the TSA agent received the "all clear" from the off site scanner that I was a safe passenger. While I was in the "holding area" I could see all of my personal items just sitting at the end of the conveyor belt waiting for me. My phone, purse, billfold with my ID, money and credit cards etc.... just sitting there while other travelers pushed it around to pick up their items. I was terrified that someone would simply pick up my items and walk off while I was trapped in the holding pen.

I certainly understand everyones frustration with airline travel and even with my concerns over it, like I said before, I will choose to still travel by air.....for the time being at least.
 
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ArielLover

Active Member
I thought about driving, but according to map quest it’s a 22+ hour drive from our home in the Boston area to the Magic Kingdom. DW and I just could not drive that long straight through which means a 2 day trip each way for us, which is just not worth it.
IMHO a TSA search is a slight inconvenience, as long as we arrive safely I’ll put up with it. Airline inefficiency and ineptitude are of course different matters. There are some carriers I will no longer fly due their inadequacies.

I have driven down from my current home in New Hampshire 8 times and 14 times from my home in Mass.

Drive can be relaxing (weird I know) , it gives me time to de-stress from work and great quality "talk" time with the wife.'

Good luck
 
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I flew down to Orlando last week from Pittsburgh for the Rick Springfield Eat to the Beat concerts. I personally didn't go through any of the new Body Scanners. I only saw one man being scanned. Is this a totally random thing or just used if one sets off the "regular" detectors? I was thinking everyone was going to be scanned.
 
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Phonedave

Well-Known Member
I am not a fan of the new pat down rules at all. It is giving me a panic attack to think about it, but I will still choose to fly because 16 hours in the car is too much for me (motion sickness).

Where I have a real problem is the way our personal items are left at the end of the conveyor belt after being scanned while you are asked to stand to the side until the "all clear" is given from your scan. We traveled in September and it was my first experience with the scanner. Of course, you have to take off your shoes, jacket and remove all your electronics (phone, computer, i-pod, etc...) from your bag and place them in the lovely gray containers to go down the conveyor belt. As our personal items went through the conveyor I was asked to step into the full body scanner. After the scan took place, I was asked to move to a "holding area" until the TSA agent received the "all clear" from the off site scanner that I was a safe passenger. While I was in the "holding area" I could see all of my personal items just sitting at the end of the conveyor belt waiting for me. My phone, purse, billfold with my ID, money and credit cards etc.... just sitting there while other travelers pushed it around to pick up their items. I was terrified that someone would simply pick up my items and walk off while I was trapped in the holding pen.

I certainly understand everyones frustration with airline travel and even with my concerns over it, like I said before, I will choose to still travel by air.....for the time being at least.

That annoys me.

I would not go so far as a panic attack or be terrified, but I do not like the idea of having my items sitting in the bins while I am detained.

As of now, I make it a point to wait until my items are INTO the conveyor before I go up to the metal detector. I don't need someone walking off with my watch.

-dave
 
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Raven66

Well-Known Member
On my son's 5th Bday this past August, we surprised him and his 2 year old sister with a trip to WDW. We travel a lot. My son has probably flown over 50 times, and my daughter over 20. It's never been a problem. However this time we went through security and I showed the TSA agent our boarding passes and my wife's and my driver's licences. He looked at my son's boarding pass and asked him what my son's name was. My son whipsered "Tommy" being a little shy. The TSA agent then said "What, speak up." At which point my son again said "Tommy" and hid somewhat behind my leg. Then the TSA agent asked him who I was in a serious tone. Our last names are the same. My son froze up and didn't answer. This occured for the next 2-3 minutes as people behind us were getting exasperated. I finally realized that my wife had the kids' passport cards and we showed them to the TSA agent and he finally let us through. I thought it was unbelievable that he wasn't going to let us pass because my just-turned-five year old son was intimidated and wouldn't answer his question. Has this ever happened to anyone else? I'm all in favor of trying to keep us safe, but this, really?!?!?

Also, in terms of the body scanner thing, I'm a family doc, so my sense of modesty has been lost as I start almost every day looking where the sun don't shine. If some guy want to look at my stuff, whatever.



This happened with us the first time we had flown with our daughter. They asked her what her name was, how old she was and who the people were with her. She answered both questions with authority. She was 6. I did ask him why they asked her and he said it was for the child's protection. Just to make sure she wasn't kidnapped.



And put me in the "continue to fly" section. I hate flying and I'm medicated when I do it, but it's better then driving that far.
 
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Monty

Brilliant...and Canadian
In the Parks
No
On my son's 5th Bday this past August, we surprised him and his 2 year old sister with a trip to WDW. We travel a lot. My son has probably flown over 50 times, and my daughter over 20. It's never been a problem. However this time we went through security and I showed the TSA agent our boarding passes and my wife's and my driver's licences. He looked at my son's boarding pass and asked him what my son's name was. My son whipsered "Tommy" being a little shy. The TSA agent then said "What, speak up." At which point my son again said "Tommy" and hid somewhat behind my leg. Then the TSA agent asked him who I was in a serious tone. Our last names are the same. My son froze up and didn't answer. This occured for the next 2-3 minutes as people behind us were getting exasperated. I finally realized that my wife had the kids' passport cards and we showed them to the TSA agent and he finally let us through. I thought it was unbelievable that he wasn't going to let us pass because my just-turned-five year old son was intimidated and wouldn't answer his question. Has this ever happened to anyone else? I'm all in favor of trying to keep us safe, but this, really?!?!?

Also, in terms of the body scanner thing, I'm a family doc, so my sense of modesty has been lost as I start almost every day looking where the sun don't shine. If some guy want to look at my stuff, whatever.
I remember my son being asked "What do you call this man?" [pointing at me], my too-smart-for-his-own-good son proceeded into a long discourse about my full name being "Douglas Neal Montgomery" but that my family calls me "Neal" and everybody else calls me "Monty"... :rolleyes: The Canadian Immigration Agent was just trying to find out if he calls me "Dad"! :lol:

It's a very good thing I carry a letter from my ex-wife authorizing him to travel with me, witnessed by a Notary, otherwise I might have been arrested until they could confirm I wasn't kidnapping him! :rolleyes:
 
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