JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
They spent a year producing the MNSSHP ad for this year.......That explains why Villains Land will take five years.
And are crowing about how long it took - to produce a TV ad.........
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Changes to Peter Pan's Flight at Magic Kingdom
- Thread starter SplashJacket
- Start date
And are crowing about how long it took - to produce a TV ad.........
EPCOTCenterLover
Well-Known Member
I'm not indigenous at all (I'm Italian), but two things stand out to me: 1- I like that no specific tribe was invoked as it keeps it at a more storybook kid like level and 2- I LOVE that fact that those of you who are indigenous are so gracious in how you are discussing this and helping us understand more. Thank you for that.
Mr. Sullivan
Well-Known Member
It’s really telling how hard some of you all fight for Disney to retain racist imagery in their theme parks
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Unless I missed some posts (very possible!) the ones who are criticizing this are Native American?
Mr. Sullivan
Well-Known Member
That was not aimed at those people. To me they’re the only ones with real authority to be speaking on the scene and its effects.
It was aimed at all the people in here insistent, even in the face of actual Native users explaining why this is a problem, that Disney shouldn’t have changed the scene to start with. The ones actively arguing with those Native users that they’re wrong about how their own culture should he handled by people who aren’t in that culture. The ones who consistently only think about how something makes them feel rather than how it makes the people actually reflected in something feel.
This happens every time Disney removes something from 40+ years ago that reflected a very different time where thinking was objectively less sensitive. They throw a fit about it.
BrerFoxesBayouAdventure
Well-Known Member
People on Xitter were already doing that anyway.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Unless some posts got deleted I’m not seeing that.
CraftyFox
Well-Known Member
This is off-site, but there is a vocal minority on some social media platforms that shall-not-be-named who are looking to argue about the legitimacy of native people’s own cultures.
MaximumEd
Well-Known Member
Ok. The poster @TrainsOfDisney was responding to is trying to drum up some outrage on this site about something that isn’t happening. I’ve seen a lot of respectful back and forth and folks throwing their 2 cents in like folks tend to do. There’s not some big racist conspiracy going on.
DisDude33
Well-Known Member
I’m currently awaiting the headline “race war erupted on Disney fan site! Possibly incited by employees of the company.”
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
Everyone keeps saying that tribal leaders were consultanted, but no one can tell say who they were. Which nations? Which leaders? And I am not saying we all have to agree (just look at how different Native cultures view owls), because you're talking about thousands of different tribal nations throughout North and South America. But to me, it just looks like someone went on Google because it went from 19th century stereotypes to more modern ones. I appreciate them trying to include Afro-Indigenous folks, but what in the Clan of the Cavebear nonsense is his necklace?! People think Tiger Lilly is ice skating because what she's doing doesn't look like Fancy Shawl.
If there were Natives involved, I need to know whose corny uncle signed off on this!!!
I just want to talk.... 
CraftyFox
Well-Known Member
Everyone keeps saying that tribal leaders were consultanted, but no one can tell say who they were. Which nations? Which leaders? And I am not saying we all have to agree (just look at how different Native cultures view owls), because you're talking about thousands of different tribal nations throughout North and South America. But to me, it just looks like someone went on Google because it went from 19th century stereotypes to more modern ones. I appreciate them trying to include Afro-Indigenous folks, but what in the Clan of the Cavebear nonsense is his necklace?! People think Tiger Lilly is ice skating because what she's doing doesn't look like Fancy Shawl.
If there were Natives involved, I need to know whose corny uncle signed off on this!!!
Even if the attempt is to be nonspecific, they really need to be transparent about who was consulted. They can’t just say they talked to tribal leaders and leave it at that. I really hate this generalization that has persisted for centuries that “native America” has been and always will be some sort monolith rather than thousands of individual nations with distinct cultural traditions, languages, etc.
mickEblu
Well-Known Member
Everyone keeps saying that tribal leaders were consultanted, but no one can tell say who they were. Which nations? Which leaders? And I am not saying we all have to agree (just look at how different Native cultures view owls), because you're talking about thousands of different tribal nations throughout North and South America. But to me, it just looks like someone went on Google because it went from 19th century stereotypes to more modern ones. I appreciate them trying to include Afro-Indigenous folks, but what in the Clan of the Cavebear nonsense is his necklace?! People think Tiger Lilly is ice skating because what she's doing doesn't look like Fancy Shawl.
If there were Natives involved, I need to know whose corny uncle signed off on this!!!
I think Disney should have just changed the scene to Tiger Lily and Peter Pan dancing around. That would have been charming and accurate to the film instead of the random Sinbad characters. But can I ask, why does the representation of the Native figures on the ride inspired by the characters from a Disney animated movie from 1953 need to be so authentic? I mean, they already moved what was offensive right? Why are the standards so high for the Natives but not all the other characters from the movie? Also, from what I understand they re not based on any specific tribe. I have to assume not every Native person from every tribe does the Fancy Shawl in the same way if at all? And that’s without accounting for the fact this is all fantasy and not some modern realistic documentary or drama.
Anyway, they tried to go super authentic on TBA, prioritized the wrong things and failed miserably. I hope this is something imagineers/ Disney move away from.
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Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
Because they can't say who they specifically talked to, it's giving me a million red flags!
It reminds me of my environmental science class in college when someone would say, "the INDIANS used EVERY PART of the buffalo," and then everyone would look at me like I was supposed to sign off on it. Bro, neither of my tribes had buffalo.
JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
Why do you think they owe it to you to explain their research and reasoning for what they do? Does Exxon tell you what land surveyor they used to locate their well sites or GM provide the engineering decisions that went into the materials used to make the brake caliper from?Because they can't say who they specifically talked to, it's giving me a million red flags!
It reminds me of my environmental science class in college when someone would say, "the INDIANS used EVERY PART of the buffalo," and then everyone would look at me like I was supposed to sign off on it. Bro, neither of my tribes had buffalo.
I don't get the entitlement thinking they should explain to your satisfaction why they did what they did.
Forgot a quote
@CraftyFox
Even if the attempt is to be nonspecific, they really need to be transparent about who was consulted. They can’t just say they talked to tribal leaders and leave it at that. I really hate this generalization that has persisted for centuries that “native America” has been and always will be some sort monolith rather than thousands of individual nations with distinct cultural traditions, languages, etc.
DisDude33
Well-Known Member
But…. You were supposed to know, how could you let the class down like this? lolBecause they can't say who they specifically talked to, it's giving me a million red flags!
It reminds me of my environmental science class in college when someone would say, "the INDIANS used EVERY PART of the buffalo," and then everyone would look at me like I was supposed to sign off on it. Bro, neither of my tribes had buffalo.
CraftyFox
Well-Known Member
Accountability. When entertainment corporations claim they consulted the members of a specific, marginalized group they are depicting, it can be used to silence or deflect criticism. Providing a specific source shows that this is a good faith effort and is simply good practice when it comes to meeting DEI standards. The fact that they didn’t state specific nations is actually immediately suspect. On a slightly unrelated note, people actually do care about the specific land surveyors corporations use. Especially (and this is fitting), when it comes to land previously taken from native populations (see the decades of controversy regarding impartial land surveyors/improper land usage in the Hawaiian Islands).
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JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
I get it, you think Disney is some corporate doo gooder that doesn't operate the same as other corporations. I think they used to be but today the "soft touch" is more for marketing rather than daily operations which are focused on selling the product.
I'm not trying to be harsh about this but sometimes fans think Disney should operate with good will and best intentions but in reality that was an ideal that really was never realized.
The treatment of animators, women and generally the "hired help" over the years has been concealed in traditions, lore and storytelling while the people suffer. This has been the company from the start and continues today because they HAVE to make money so they tell you a nice story they think will appeal to the broadest portion of the population using the standards of the times so they can extract the most money from the most people.
SpectroMagician
Well-Known Member
Did you listen to the earnings call? THEY are the ones who are saying attendance is down and they need to work to increase it.
The fact that you would call someone a "message board warrior" while literally being on a message board arguing with someone says a lot about you.