Changes to Peter Pan's Flight at Magic Kingdom

SpectroMagician

Well-Known Member
The photos you cite, and many of the ones most Americans have in their mind of what Natives look like, are often a heavily romanticized view of Native life and weren't accurate to the time they were taken. The most famous example of this is by the photographer Edward Curtis, a non-Native.

This article shares some really interesting nuance about the context for these photos. It's important to keep this in mind when we use these as examples to show or talk about Natives.
Why are you surprised a fairy tale story used what you call a romanticized depiction then? And if the old one was romanticized than what do you call the new scene? I guess pure fantasy.

The Natives Americans did horrible things to each other. They were not at all like Pocahontas made them out to be.
 

Mr. Sullivan

Well-Known Member
Just saw it today. It should have taken a weekend.
I doubt seriously that installing that scene is the only thing they did during the entire six weeks.

But beyond that, I'm also sure that the installation was more complicated to actually perform than what it appears to us as guests. I've no doubt there's a long list of tasks that goes into the removal of something and then the addition of something else.
 

CraftyFox

Well-Known Member
I get it, you think Disney is some corporate doo gooder that doesn't operate the same as other corporations. I think they used to be but today the "soft touch" is more for marketing rather than daily operations which are focused on selling the product.
I'm not trying to be harsh about this but sometimes fans think Disney should operate with good will and best intentions but in reality that was an ideal that really was never realized.
The treatment of animators, women and generally the "hired help" over the years has been concealed in traditions, lore and storytelling while the people suffer. This has been the company from the start and continues today because they HAVE to make money so they tell you a nice story they think will appeal to the broadest portion of the population using the standards of the times so they can extract the most money from the most people.
I understand what you’re getting at and, at least personally, I do not expect the Disney corporation (for their lengthy track record including the reasons you’ve cited) to do their due diligence. However, I don’t think that makes any criticism of their unwillingness to release information immediately null and void. I don’t think it’s unwarranted entitlement to want a company to commit to what is currently considered good practice. Of course, that often isn’t how things turn out!
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
I don't envy WDI on this one. It's my understanding that opinions among Native American tribes very wildly on depictions in media, stereotypes, being referred to as "Indians", etc.

Peter Pan doesn't depict a specific tribe, so how do you change the scene in a way that doesn't offend any of the tribes? You can't, it's impossible.

I would have just left it as it was. Disney's made it a habit to proactively identify potential controversy and change it, which in turn creates more controversy than ever existed before. I have no doubt that if Magic Kingdom was operating today like it was in 2019, without any of the changes of the last five years, no one would be up in arms and overall guest satisfaction would be higher since Disney Parks are so mismanaged now.

And since everything WDI does these days has to have meaning, they wrote up a whole new backstory for this scene tying it in to a real world Native American ceremony. Which to me seems a bit over the top, especially when the root problem (if it can even be called that) remains- this is off putting to some Native Americans.
 

harryk

Well-Known Member
This is an excellent way to evolve storytelling without complete removal. I can’t see how anyone can be upset by this.
I can't see how anyone can be happy with this. The scene was base on the WD movie as was the whole ride. This change is not an improvement. How anybody could be upset with the original is still a wonder for me. Someone is always upset with depictions -- now we just have a new group of 'upset', 'sensitive' people to replace the first group.
 

osian

Well-Known Member
Peter Pan doesn't depict a specific tribe, so how do you change the scene in a way that doesn't offend any of the tribes? You can't, it's impossible.

I would have just left it as it was.Disney's made it a habit to proactively identify potential controversy and change it, which in turn creates more controversy than ever existed before.
The original figures had what you might call stereotypical poses and features that are quite derogatory, caricature-like and typical of perceptions that existed in the past. I think you've missed the point on what is problematic with it. The only controversy it's creating is in the people who can't see what's wrong with it and want the old scenes back.
 
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osian

Well-Known Member
I can't see how anyone can be happy with this. The scene was base on the WD movie as was the whole ride. This change is not an improvement. How anybody could be upset with the original is still a wonder for me. Someone is always upset with depictions -- now we just have a new group of 'upset', 'sensitive' people to replace the first group.
The original figures had what you might call stereotypical poses and features that are quite derogatory, caricature-like and typical of perceptions that existed in the past. I'm quite surprised that you can't see that. And..., it's a sound business decision to make sure that a business is not inadvertently alienating some of its potential customers by sticking to outdated perceptions that mock them. Whether or not the new figures have their own set of problems is another issue.
 

castlecake2.0

Well-Known Member
It’s really telling how hard some of you all fight for Disney to retain racist imagery in their theme parks

I can't see how anyone can be happy with this. The scene was base on the WD movie as was the whole ride. This change is not an improvement. How anybody could be upset with the original is still a wonder for me. Someone is always upset with depictions -- now we just have a new group of 'upset', 'sensitive' people to replace the first group.
 

Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
I admit that the last time I watched "Peter Pan", the Red Indian scene made me wince a bit. But I wonder if I winced because I truly found it offensive, or if I winced because I thought I was supposed to. That scene didn't faze me at all when I saw it as a kid. I didn't think it made fun of Indians. I just thought it was interesting. Ah, the innocence of childhood...

The scene change is okay, although I do wonder who the adult male Indian is supposed to be. Is he Tiger Lily's redesigned daddy? Her big brother? Oh well.

To actually improve the ride, WDW needs to gut it and clone the excellent version from Shanghai. (No chance we'd get the truly amazing version in Tokyo's Fantasy Springs). It's in the same dark-ride format as WDW's, so it's not like the Imagineers would have to redo everything, I imagine. Why do we have to be content with the same old ride that was built in 1955? Why can't we Yanks get nice things too? I'd rather we get a Peter Pan's Flight refurb than subpar Encanto (a box-office flop, BTW), that has none of the long-term generational appeal of Disney's Peter Pan. It's so frustrating to see other parks outside the United States get all the good stuff. It's ridiculous, and, in my case, not at all conducive to making me want to visit WDW again. Especially at THOSE prices!
 
Why are you surprised a fairy tale story used what you call a romanticized depiction then? And if the old one was romanticized than what do you call the new scene? I guess pure fantasy.

The Natives Americans did horrible things to each other. They were not at all like Pocahontas made them out to be.
You may need to reread what I posted. I was not talking at all about the ride. I was responding on someone who had shared images of Natives to prove a point. Just trying to provide some context on the subject so this conversation wouldn't devolve into further stereotypes.

I think a lot of people here need to ask themselves why they care much more about an attraction than they do about real people.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I don't envy WDI on this one. It's my understanding that opinions among Native American tribes very wildly on depictions in media, stereotypes, being referred to as "Indians", etc.

Peter Pan doesn't depict a specific tribe, so how do you change the scene in a way that doesn't offend any of the tribes? You can't, it's impossible.

I would have just left it as it was. Disney's made it a habit to proactively identify potential controversy and change it, which in turn creates more controversy than ever existed before. I have no doubt that if Magic Kingdom was operating today like it was in 2019, without any of the changes of the last five years, no one would be up in arms and overall guest satisfaction would be higher since Disney Parks are so mismanaged now.

And since everything WDI does these days has to have meaning, they wrote up a whole new backstory for this scene tying it in to a real world Native American ceremony. Which to me seems a bit over the top, especially when the root problem (if it can even be called that) remains- this is off putting to some Native Americans.

They wrote a backstory tying it to a real world Native American ceremony? Wow. These people are terrible at their job.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
The original figures had what you might call stereotypical poses and features that are quite derogatory, caricature-like and typical of perceptions that existed in the past. I think you've missed the point on what is problematic with it. The only controversy it's creating is in the people who can't see what's wrong with it and want the old scenes back.
Or… they simply think caricature in art isn’t as offensive as others think it is. They never thought the original depictions were meant to be realistic nor representative of anything but fictional creations.

I mean… people literally pay artists to draw themselves and their significant other in exaggerated caricature ways for fun…

You can tell a pollock joke too… I won’t try to cancel you.
 
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Or… they simply think caricature in art isn’t as offensive as others think it is. They never thought the original depictions were meant to be realistic nor representative of anything but fictional creations.

I mean… people literally pay artists to draw themselves and their significant other in exaggerated caricature ways for fun…

You can tell a pollock joke too… I won’t try to cancel you.
Although we are far removed from it, I think it's worth noting that jokes and stereotypes of Natives (and Poles) helped to justify and give a pass to real-life discrimination and genocide.

Although you may be okay with a Pollock joke, my ancestors probably would not have appreciated being dehumanized and discriminated against. It may be fine to make jokes in your own private space, but for very public matters it's not acceptable anymore. Which is a good thing.

Again, we don't have to dumb ourselves down. We can be better and not need to offend others. You can be creative, funny, and respected all without being mean.
 

Fido Chuckwagon

Well-Known Member
Run exclusively by Attractions Magazine a look at the new scene:

Peter-Pans-Flight-Never-Land-Tribe-Tiger-Lily-new-version-01-courtesy-of-Disney.jpeg


From Attractions Magazine’s story: “Similar updates to the Never Land Tribe scene will be implemented in California and Paris, Disney told us.”

This looks great. Good job Disney.
 

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